One user asked me if my previous comment on this issue was meant to be a sarcastic one. So maybe I should explain a little bit more in detail what I meant.
My point was:
1. I can understand why a number of people who speak that language and live there are not content with the current modus operandi and why we keep getting complaints about this.
2. My personal opinion is that we ought to make some changes.
What I (and obviously many who are actually concerned by it) find unacceptable about the current situation:
- When an internet user from the Republic of Moldova visits Wikipedia's homepage, he finds among others links to Wikipedia editions in "Română" and in "Moldovenească".
- There are people who think that Moldovan is a distinct language. There are people who think that Moldovan is simply different name for the Romanian. Everybody knows however that both Romanian and Moldovan are generally written in Latin script.
- Nevertheless, on Wikipedia's homepage "Moldovenească" in not written in Latin script, like the Moldovan society has determined but in Cyrillic script like it was decreed in the unfree days of the Soviet union when the people of Moldova was not allowed to decide for themselves.
- This gives the Moldovan internet user a bad impression of Wikipedia and irritates him or her because they can think that Wikipedia ignores what the independent nation of Moldova decides and rather goes by the standard from the Soviet era.
- Now, if that user clicks on that cyrillic "Moldovenească", he is taken to a page that tells him to make a decision if he prefers the Latin or the Cyrillic script.
- What happens next is the following: If that user choses Latin (i. e. the standard script), he is told that his language is now considered Romanian by Wikipedia and taken to the Romanian Wikipedia. If, however the user should decide for some reason that he prefers Cyrillic (official script during the Soviet era), Wikipedia _now_ considers his language Moldovan and he is taken to a Wikipedia named "Moldovenească".
- And finally he realizes that this wiki that uses the Soviet standard which became suspended one and a half decades ago is given the subdomain "mo" (code reserved for Moldovan which is by default written in Latin script) by Wikipedia!
Now I would like ask everybody who has had the patience to read this far:
Is there anybody who does _not_ understand why a large number of users from the region are upset by this weird arrangement?
When, a few weeks ago, a couple of Wikipedians from the former Yugoslavia were telling us that they were feeling insulted and offended by the mere existence of an edition in Serbo-Croatian I was not able to comprehend that.
But I do understand the irritation here and think it is well-justified.
In a nutshell, Wikipedia currently delivers this message to users from Moldova: "If you're using the Latin script (like your national constitution says and like the majority of your compatriots do) we'll call your language Romanian but in case you should use Cyrillic, then we'll consider your language Moldovan".
Is there anybody who thinks that there is no need to correct this awkward situation?
Thanks for your time and attention!
Arbeo
--------------------------------- Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 1GB kostenlosem Speicher
- There are people who think that Moldovan is a distinct language. There are people who think that Moldovan is simply different name for the Romanian. Everybody knows however that both Romanian and Moldovan are generally written in Latin script.
This is an incorrect opinion. Yes, the majority do use Latin, but many still use Cyrillic.
- Nevertheless, on Wikipedia's homepage "Moldovenească" in not written in Latin script, like the Moldovan society has determined but in Cyrillic script like it was decreed in the unfree days of the Soviet union when the people of Moldova was not allowed to decide for themselves.
As noted previously, Cyrillic is still used by many in Moldova proper, and by a majority in Trasnistria.
- This gives the Moldovan internet user a bad impression of Wikipedia and irritates him or her because they can think that Wikipedia ignores what the independent nation of Moldova decides and rather goes by the standard from the Soviet era.
...
- Now, if that user clicks on that cyrillic "Moldovenească", he is taken to a page that tells him to make a decision if he prefers the Latin or the Cyrillic script.
...
- What happens next is the following: If that user choses Latin (i. e. the standard script), he is told that his language is now considered Romanian by Wikipedia and taken to the Romanian Wikipedia. If, however the user should decide for some reason that he prefers Cyrillic (official script during the Soviet era), Wikipedia _now_ considers his language Moldovan and he is taken to a Wikipedia named "Moldovenească".
No, it doesn't say that Wikipedia considers his language Romanian. It just says, "If you want to look at the Moldovan Wikipedia in the Latin alphabet, please visit the Romanian Wikipedia". It used to say "Please click here", but this was changed, due to pressure from one Moldovan and 3 Romanians.
- And finally he realizes that this wiki that uses the Soviet standard which became suspended one and a half decades ago is given the subdomain "mo" (code reserved for Moldovan which is by default written in Latin script) by Wikipedia!
Not sure where you're getting the idea that nobody uses Cyrillic.
Is there anybody who does _not_ understand why a large number of users from the region are upset by this weird arrangement?
"A large number of users"? So far, I've observed a plethora of Romanians who are upset, and a handful of Moldovans. This totally ignores the fact that there are Moldovans who collaborate to mo.wiki, and there has been a small volume of positive feedback.
In a nutshell, Wikipedia currently delivers this message to users from Moldova: "If you're using the Latin script (like your national constitution says and like the majority of your compatriots do) we'll call your language Romanian but in case you should use Cyrillic, then we'll consider your language Moldovan".
What the language is called when written in Latin script is entirely up to ro.wiki.
Is there anybody who thinks that there is no need to correct this awkward situation?
The situation was already discussed extensively by myself, other Moldovans both in Moldova and abroad, and Romanians. The current solution was arrived at.
The OLD solution was that the mainpage of mo.wiki was all Cyrillic. And didn't you notice the Sitenotice? It says, in bold, "If you wanna read WP in Latin, the official script of the Moldovan Republic, please go to ro.wiki"
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
2005/12/4, Arbeo M arbeo_m@yahoo.de:
- Nevertheless, on Wikipedia's homepage "Moldovenească" in not written in Latin script, like the Moldovan society has determined but in Cyrillic script like it was decreed in the unfree days of the Soviet union when the people of Moldova was not allowed to decide for themselves.
You probably don't know the history of the language well. In fact both Romanian and Moldovans has been Orthodox Christians and used Cyrillic script for several ages. The modern Latin script is relatively a news in both lands. So one can's speak in such a self-confindent way about Moldovan Cyrillics as "decreed in the unfree days". By the way, do you know much about the unfree days? They were not totally that "unfree". :) Be more neutral. ;)
- This gives the Moldovan internet user a bad impression of Wikipedia and irritates him or her because they can think that Wikipedia ignores what the independent nation of Moldova decides and rather goes by the standard from the Soviet era.
Maybe it would be a good choice just to move the whole thing to __mo-cyr.wikipedia.org__, leaving at [[:mo:]] the two links -- to the Romanian and to the old-fashioned Cyrillic-written Moldovan.
Sl.
-- Esperu cxiam!
You probably don't know the history of the language well. In fact both Romanian and Moldovans has been Orthodox Christians and used Cyrillic script for several ages. The modern Latin script is relatively a news in both lands. So one can's speak in such a self-confindent way about Moldovan Cyrillics as "decreed in the unfree days". By the way, do you know much about the unfree days? They were not totally that "unfree". :) Be more neutral. ;)
For some reason, Slavic people seem to think that "Romania is really just a Slavic language that has only recently tried to affirm itself as Latin/Romance". Not only you, but others as well. Romanian, while influenced by Slavic languages to a degree, is still overwhelmingly Romance and the Latin alphabet is the best alphabet to represent it. Additionally, it switched from Cyrillic *in the 1800s*. That's a long time ago! So modern Latin script in Romania is not recent, especially relative to Moldova. Additionally, Latin script is the *only* script used to write Romanian in Romania. It's just like French is always written in Latin script, Romanian is also always written in Latin script. Therefore, it's not OK to justify the writing of Moldovan in Cyrillic just because Romanian was once written in Cyrillic. It's true, Romanian national revival only came about in the second half of the 19th century, and until then Romanians mostly used Cyrillic, albeit a different form. But today, the Latin alphabet is the only alphabet used in Romania.
Another point is the use of Cyrillic in Moldova. From what I gather - from the media, from Moldovans - Moldova today is overwhelmingly Latin-script. Aside from the disputed territory of Transnistria, very few people use Cyrillic often.
- This gives the Moldovan internet user a bad impression of Wikipedia and
irritates him or her because they can think that Wikipedia ignores what the independent nation of Moldova decides and rather goes by the standard from the Soviet era.
Maybe it would be a good choice just to move the whole thing to __mo-cyr.wikipedia.org__, leaving at [[:mo:]] the two links -- to the Romanian and to the old-fashioned Cyrillic-written Moldovan.
Sl.
Yes, that's a good idea.
On 05/12/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@gmail.com wrote:
For some reason, Slavic people seem to think that "Romania is really just a Slavic language that has only recently tried to affirm itself as Latin/Romance". Not only you, but others as well. Romanian, while influenced
Did he say that? No, he commented only on Cyrillic vs. Latin. Cyrillic is NOT the same as Slavic; there are many languages using Cyrillic which are not Slavic, and many languages which are Slavic but don't use Cyrillic.
by Slavic languages to a degree, is still overwhelmingly Romance and the Latin alphabet is the best alphabet to represent it. Additionally, it
Why is the Latin alphabet the best to represent it? As far as I can tell, the modern Moldovan Cyrillic alphabet better represents the language than the Latin alphabet-- Cyrillic represents the sounds directly with oneletter for each phone, while Latin represents them in a way trying to make the language look more like French or Latin, often with situational rules for writing different phones, for example:
-- c, ch, and k can all represent the "k" sound in different situations, but then in some situations "c" makes a "ch" sound instead. -- g and gh can both represent the hard "g" sound in different situations, but then in some situations "g" makes a "dj" sound instead. -- the letter "i" can be used to represent 5 separate phones, and sometimes even used where there is no corresponding phone at all. -- the letter "e" can represent 3 phones, and sometimes even used where there is no corresponding phone at all. -- the letters â and î can both represent the same sound in different situations.
None of this is true for Cyrillic, except for the fact that "e" can represent 2 phones.
Additionally, Latin script is the *only* script used to write Romanian in Romania. It's just like French is always written in Latin script, Romanian
No, in Romania, Cyrillic is still found in certain ecclesiastical uses.
is also always written in Latin script. Therefore, it's not OK to justify the writing of Moldovan in Cyrillic just because Romanian was once written in Cyrillic. It's true, Romanian national revival only came about in the second half of the 19th century, and until then Romanians mostly used Cyrillic, albeit a different form. But today, the Latin alphabet is the only alphabet used in Romania.
No, in Romania, Cyrillic is still found in certain ecclesiastical uses.
Another point is the use of Cyrillic in Moldova. From what I gather - from the media, from Moldovans - Moldova today is overwhelmingly Latin-script.
Overwhelmingly, sure. But not 100%. Aside from Transnistria, there are at least a few thousand people who strongly prefer Cyrillic, some of them don't know any Latin at all.
Aside from the disputed territory of Transnistria, very few people use Cyrillic often.
Not entirely true. In the villages, people over 30 often are more fluent in Cyrillic, and take notes or write diaries in it, but will mostly use Latin for public life.
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Seems, that you assign somedy else's thoughts to me, which is not a good habit. I have never told Romanian (and/or Modovan) is a Slavic language.
As for the myth about this or that alfabet fitting better or worse to this or that language, I even don't wont to discuss it. A good alphabet is a phonematic one ("one phoneme" <--> "one symbol"), and the shape of letters is just an accessory thing.
2005/12/5, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@gmail.com:
You probably don't know the history of the language well. In fact both Romanian and Moldovans has been Orthodox Christians and used Cyrillic script for several ages. The modern Latin script is relatively a news in both lands. So one can's speak in such a self-confindent way about Moldovan Cyrillics as "decreed in the unfree days". By the way, do you know much about the unfree days? They were not totally that "unfree". :) Be more neutral. ;)
For some reason, Slavic people seem to think that "Romania is really just a Slavic language that has only recently tried to affirm itself as Latin/Romance". Not only you, but others as well. Romanian, while influenced by Slavic languages to a degree, is still overwhelmingly Romance and the Latin alphabet is the best alphabet to represent it...
-- Esperu cxiam!
Any action/summary from wikipedia administrators ?
I say it again, the only Moldovans who write Moldovian language using cyrillic are the Transnistrian ones, but they are FORCED by russian MILITARY FORCES! (read more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria) They don't choose that, the RUSSIA CHOOSE FOR THEM! (or have you heard of any referendum?). "Roughly 11,200 children out of 79,000 Transdniestrian schoolchildren are educated in the Moldovan language using Cyrillic script." "In the summer of 2004, the Transnistrian authorities forcibly closed six schools that taught the language using the Latin script." !!! THEY DON"T HAVE ANY RULES!
And the majority of Moldovans use latin script, that's around 2,578,322(that's the Moldovans from Moldova) and only 177,204 from Transnistria ARE OFFICIALLY FORCED to use cyrillic ! That's 2,578,322/177,204=~14, we are the majority.
Please write our name language using latin script on the main page. And move the current mo. to mo-cyr and on all mo. page put two links to Romania wiki and to cyr wiki. (on mo. should not remain any cyrillic word!). Or i feel like wikipedia are under russian military forces influence too...
Stop talking nonsense about my country. ;) Wikipedia is a neutral place, it's not a place for nationalist extremists like you.
Sl.
2005/12/10, Adrenalin adrenalinup@gmail.com:
I say it again, the only Moldovans who write Moldovian language using cyrillic are the Transnistrian ones, but they are FORCED by russian MILITARY FORCES! (read more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria) They don't choose that, the RUSSIA CHOOSE FOR THEM! (or have you heard of any referendum?).
...
Or i feel like wikipedia are under russian military forces influence too...
-- Esperu cxiam!
Stop talking nonsense about my country. ;)
Well, Russia supports Transnistria, think of how people from Moldova perceive it.
Wikipedia is a neutral place,
Yeah, right, that sounds painfully funny with all the revert, edit, etc..wars. Maybe you meant "in a perfect world, wikipedia would be a neutral place", but when one individual has control of an entire mo.wikipedia, this is not neutrality, this is abuse. Again, he can have his own wiki language but under a different name, and let him control it, edit it in any possible way he likes. I will repeat once again, at this point wikipedia is used as a mean to disinform the general public, then go figure why people question its quality for a good reason. Node_ue is the living proof of how one individual can hurt an image of wikipedia, and since most of the admins on WP don't even care about Moldova, they just pretend the issue doesn't exist makes things even worse.
I know what I said might sound offending to some that contributed a lot of interesting information, without getting involved in a war with trolls, and I'm sorry, I'm sure you do your best to make WP a better place, but try to understand the situation as well.
Since I consider that wikipedia-l has been flooded already with this issue, I will not post here anymore with the hope that there will be a reaction from the Administrators of Wikipedia.
Bye bye
_________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
On 12/10/05, V. Ivanov amikeco@gmail.com wrote:
Stop talking nonsense about my country. ;) Wikipedia is a neutral place, it's not a place for nationalist extremists like you.
Sl.
Me, a nationalist extremist ? Um ? I just want to see the real script of my language on mo., is that nationalistic extremism ? Let's say what tomorrow the en.wikipedia would be in japanese script, because of some ppl what write english language using japanese symbols, and someone will call to revert it back to the real script, latin, would he be a nationalist extremist too ?
The majority of moldovian speakers use latin script to write the moldovian language, so why couldn't we ask mo.wikipedia to be in latin script too ?
This topic indeed get too big, any Wikipedia Administrator, please ?
On 10/12/05, V. Ivanov amikeco@gmail.com wrote:
Stop talking nonsense about my country. ;) Wikipedia is a neutral place, it's not a place for nationalist extremists like you.
Sl.
2005/12/10, Adrenalin adrenalinup@gmail.com:
I say it again, the only Moldovans who write Moldovian language using cyrillic are the Transnistrian ones, but they are FORCED by russian MILITARY FORCES! (read more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria) They don't choose that, the RUSSIA CHOOSE FOR THEM! (or have you heard of any referendum?).
...
Or i feel like wikipedia are under russian military forces influence too...
I do not think there is a problem of national extremism here. It is pure indignation. I was born in Moldova, I was taught Romanian in school and passed the Baccalaureate exam on Romanian and on the History of Romanians, I spoke all my life Romanian, I wrote it always with the Latin script, and I come on Wikipedia - a decent source of information - and I find out that actually it is Moldovan that we speak in Moldova, and that we write it with the Cyrillic script (that I couldn't even use for writing anything in Romanian and that does not represent all the Romanian sounds, anyway). And furthermore, taking into consideration the way mo.wikipedia is organized (containing all the Cyrillic content), I conclude that Cyrillic Moldovan is representative of Moldova. This is the non-sense in all this issue.
OK, so let it be that Moldovan language existed and exists, but only in Cyrillic script, and only as an artificial language that was always imposed by the authorities. This should not suggest that it has anything to do on mo.wikipedia. As it was said in previous posts, this is Moldova's domain, where Romanian is used (no matter what the authorities say). If anything finds it sound to maintain a Cyrillic Moldovan Wikipedia, let it be. However, not on mo.wikipedia. A compromise place would be mo-cyr.wikipedia. Anyway, Wikipedia is structured by languages and not by countries. There is no nz.wikipedia, nor au.wikipedia, nor at.wikipedia.org. There are no New Zealand, Australian or Austrian languages. There was once a Moldovan Cyrillic language that is presently imposed to a minority of citizens of Moldova that live in a separatist region called Transnistria. As it was said earlier, mo.wikipedia is just a means of disinformation. Mo.wikipedia should be keeped only as a disambiguation page, having a redirect to ro.wikipedia.
A compromise solution, in my opinion: 1) Move all the mo.wikipedia content to a mo-cyr.wikipedia. 2) Remove Node_us' administrative powers over mo.wikipedia and give him the Administrator privileges on mo-cyr.wikipedia. Thus he conserves the Administrator status over the Wikipedia that he created (in the sense of having most contributed to it). 3) Organize an election for a new mo.wikipedia Administrator. I believe Ronline or Oleg Alexandrov would be good candidates (of course, under the condition that they desire so). Mo.wikipedia should be administered by a Moldovan or a Romanian.
Thus this issue will cool down. At least for the moment.
So, please, could an Administrator - with enough privileges - join this discussion?
Let's say what tomorrow the en.wikipedia would be in japanese script, because of some ppl what write english language using japanese symbols, and someone will call to revert it back to the real script, latin, would he be a nationalist extremist too ?
That's a bad example. A better one would be about all Englishmen choosing to write in Japanese characters, while some wikipedians choose to use Latin script on. :) The alphabet issue is not always so easy, as you try to put it: there is at least too wikipedia editions that chose not to use official script: the Tatar and the Belorusan.
2005/12/10, Field Nothing fieldtheory2@hotmail.com:
Stop talking nonsense about my country. ;)
Well, Russia supports Transnistria, think of how people from Moldova perceive it.
Well, are there any "worse people" living over there in Transnistria? :) Have you ever thought of their feelings, emotions, goals? I've talked to some people from there as well as from South Ossetia -- I don't see why these people or their decisions might be ignored...
2005/12/15, Liviu Andronic landronimirc@gmail.com:
A compromise solution, in my opinion:
- Move all the mo.wikipedia content to a mo-cyr.wikipedia.
- Remove Node_us' administrative powers over mo.wikipedia and give
him the Administrator privileges on mo-cyr.wikipedia. Thus he conserves the Administrator status over the Wikipedia that he created (in the sense of having most contributed to it).
Yes, seems a good idea; I've talked about it once. I agree, it might be fair.
Sl. Ivanov
-- Esperu cxiam!
Maybe it would be a good choice just to move the whole thing to __mo-cyr.wikipedia.org__, leaving at [[:mo:]] the two links -- to the Romanian and to the old-fashioned Cyrillic-written Moldovan.
It is not that bad an idea. I support it. Mo.wikipedia should probably contain - apart from the two links - a small but clear disambiguation note (excerpt from the Constitution - Moldovan language, latin script; something explaining that Moldovan is just a political rename of Romanian; the reasons for keeping a mo-cyr.wikipedia - that it may still be used by some in Moldova and in Transnistria). Alternatively, it may contain a similar disambiguation note and a redirect to the Romanian Wikipedia only (as it is Romanian that is spoken in Moldova).
- When an internet user from the Republic of Moldova visits Wikipedia's homepage, he finds
among others links to Wikipedia editions in "Română" and in "Moldovenească".
- There are people who think that Moldovan is a distinct language. There are people who think that Moldovan is simply different name for the Romanian. Everybody knows however that both
Romanian and Moldovan are generally written in Latin script.
Nevertheless, on Wikipedia's homepage "Moldovenească" in not written in Latin script, like the Moldovan society has determined but in Cyrillic script like it was decreed in the unfree days of the Soviet union when the people of Moldova was not allowed to decide for themselves.
This gives the Moldovan internet user a bad impression of Wikipedia and irritates him or her because they can think that Wikipedia ignores what the independent nation of Moldova decides and rather goes by the standard from the Soviet era.
Now, if that user clicks on that cyrillic "Moldovenească", he is taken to a page that tells him to make a decision if he prefers the Latin or the Cyrillic script.
What happens next is the following: If that user choses Latin (i. e. the standard script), he is told that his language is now considered Romanian by Wikipedia and taken to the Romanian Wikipedia. If, however the user should decide for some reason that he prefers Cyrillic (official script during the Soviet era), Wikipedia _now_ considers his language Moldovan and he is taken to a Wikipedia named "Moldovenească".
And finally he realizes that this wiki that uses the Soviet standard which became suspended one and a half decades ago is given the subdomain "mo" (code reserved for Moldovan which is by default written in Latin script) by Wikipedia!
Now I would like ask everybody who has had the patience to read this far:
Is there anybody who does _not_ understand why a large number of users from the region are upset by this weird arrangement?
When, a few weeks ago, a couple of Wikipedians from the former Yugoslavia were telling us that they were feeling insulted and offended by the mere existence of an edition in Serbo-Croatian I was not able to comprehend that.
But I do understand the irritation here and think it is well-justified.
In a nutshell, Wikipedia currently delivers this message to users from Moldova: "If you're using the Latin script (like your national constitution says and like the majority of your compatriots do) we'll call your language Romanian but in case you should use Cyrillic, then we'll consider your language Moldovan".
I believe Arbeo's description of the current situation is quite accurate. As a Moldovan I feel - let us say - upset when viewing Wikipedia present Moldova as a reminiscent of the USSR. What upsets me most is when, in a foreign country, I am almost as a rule obliged to explain that I am not Russian. That contrary to Ukrainians or Belorussians, we are not descendants of Slavic People. That we are not native speakers of Russian (even though there are a lot of us who freely speak and others that master it). That we speak Romanian. Although I consider myself Moldovan, I have Romanian origins. I am somehow trapped between both.
In Moldova we are not using Cyrillic script from ages (as it was mentioned, one decade and a half ago it was abolished). As soon as we got our independence, we got Cyrillic Moldovan changed for Romanian written with Latin script. Nowadays, in Moldova Cyrillic script is used only for Russian. There are no newspapers in "Cyrillic Moldovan". http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page is one of the rare pages on the net containing "Cyrillic Moldovan". Television journalists are desperately trying to present news or whatever using a correct and fluent Romanian (following Romanian guidelines of usage; as there are no such Moldovan guidelines). All the official documentation is in Romanian. Yes, we may call it Moldovan, there, in the Government, but I personally know a reviser working in the Moldovan Government that uses the Explicative Dictionary of the Romanian Language (Dictionarul Explicativ al limbii Romane) in order to edit official documentation. This is just because we do not have Moldovan Explicative Dictionaries. They do not exist (not to my knowledge). There are few intelligent enough to publish such pearls. We have tried even to publish a Moldovan - Romanian Dictionary (Dictionarul Moldovenesc-Romanesc); even this, not taking into account all the aberrations that it contained - a very good collection of archaisms, the least to say -, it was not written in Cyrillic. It used plain Latin. So, apart from retired people, that need to make a small note in their old telephone book, or anything similar, I do not imagine myself people writing Romanian with the Cyrillic script. OK, in villages, maybe, but only as exceptions. Transnistria - there, like in good old Communist times, it is imposed. I have seen news showing parents protesting against the use of Cyrillic script in educational purposes (schools, manuals, etc) and going to jail because of this. Otherwise, it is Russian that is mainly used there: administration, radio, television, press and so on.
All this just to try to demonstrate that Cyrillic script is not used in Moldova, or that at least it is by no means representative of Moldova. I do not know what other examples to cite here.
On 12/4/05, Arbeo M arbeo_m@yahoo.de wrote:
In a nutshell, Wikipedia currently delivers this message to users from Moldova: "If you're using the Latin script (like your national constitution says and like the majority of your compatriots do) we'll call your language Romanian but in case you should use Cyrillic, then we'll consider your language Moldovan".
So, if you change the script, it become another language ? Very strange point to me..
So, when Romanian language was written using Cyrillic (before *1800s*), in your theory that language was called Moldovan ?
I would agree what Moldovan language is a artificial one, and was a mistake of our parliamentary, but I'll never agree what it should be written using Cyrillic, just because i was born in '88 and i never wrote my language using Cyrillic script, and i never see people in my country to wrote the Romanian language (what by mistake is called by some ppl Moldovan) using Cyrillic script.
I'll suggest to remove the mo. subdomain at all, moving it to mo-cyr.wikipedia.org would look like you'll save that actually-bad joke with the hosting at the biggest free encyclopedia.
I'll suggest to remove the mo. subdomain at all, moving it to mo-cyr.wikipedia.org would look like you'll save that actually-bad joke with the hosting at the biggest free encyclopedia.
I am also from Moldova, but unlike the poster I am replying to, I did get to write in Cyrillic in school, being a bit older. :)
I perfectly agree that the Cyrillic version needs to be moved to mo-cyr.wikipedia.org or something similar. It is not right that the mo domain which is meant to stand for Moldova is used as a gateway to the Cyrillic version which is not used in the country, and which is associated with the abuses Moldova undertook as part of Soviet Union after World War II.
Oleg Alexandrov, postdoc, UCLA
I'll suggest to remove the mo. subdomain at all, moving it to mo-cyr.wikipedia.org would look like you'll save that actually-bad joke with the hosting at the biggest free encyclopedia.
I am also from Moldova, but unlike the poster I am replying to, I did get to write in Cyrillic in school, being a bit older. :)
I perfectly agree that the Cyrillic version needs to be moved to mo-cyr.wikipedia.org or something similar. It is not right that the mo domain which is meant to stand for Moldova is used as a gateway to the Cyrillic version which is not used in the country, and which is associated with the abuses Moldova undertook as part of Soviet Union after World War II.
How about having two DB tables, splitting the domain, like Chinese Wikipedia does (Simplified and Traditional)?
How about having two DB tables, splitting the domain, like Chinese Wikipedia does (Simplified and Traditional)? _______________________________________________
I think that's unnecessary. The Moldovan language case is a unique one throughout the world in that Moldovan is a politically-renamed Romanian spoken in Moldovan. It would be just like the Austrian government declares today that the language spoken officially in Austria is called "Austrian". Therefore, we don't need a separate Wikipedia for Moldovan in Latin script - Romanian can already cater for that. In fact, we have users from Moldova reading and contributing to our content at ro.wiki.
For that reason, I think mo.wiki could be abolished entirely. If people really want a Cyrillic version, then it should be moved to mo-cyr, and mo should act as a portal, with one link to ro.wiki, one link to mo-cyr. But currently, the demand for Cyrillic is almost inexistent, and the quality of the articles there is very questionable.
Ronline
So, if Moldovan is nothing else than Rumanian, and it happens that some people write it in Cyrillic alphabet, you don't do one wikipedia only that can be written in both alphabets (I guess that's the way zh.wiki or sh.wiki work). Maybe I'm missing out something or I'm being too naive, and I beg my pardon for it, but this seems quite an easy and obvious solution to me.
Cruccone
Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) wrote:
How about having two DB tables, splitting the domain, like Chinese Wikipedia does (Simplified and Traditional)? _______________________________________________
I think that's unnecessary. The Moldovan language case is a unique one throughout the world in that Moldovan is a politically-renamed Romanian spoken in Moldovan. It would be just like the Austrian government declares today that the language spoken officially in Austria is called "Austrian". Therefore, we don't need a separate Wikipedia for Moldovan in Latin script
- Romanian can already cater for that. In fact, we have users from Moldova
reading and contributing to our content at ro.wiki.
For that reason, I think mo.wiki could be abolished entirely. If people really want a Cyrillic version, then it should be moved to mo-cyr, and mo should act as a portal, with one link to ro.wiki, one link to mo-cyr. But currently, the demand for Cyrillic is almost inexistent, and the quality of the articles there is very questionable.
Ronline _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On 12/6/05, Marco Chiesa chiesa.marco@gmail.com wrote:
So, if Moldovan is nothing else than Rumanian, and it happens that some people write it in Cyrillic alphabet, you don't do one wikipedia only that can be written in both alphabets (I guess that's the way zh.wiki or sh.wiki work). Maybe I'm missing out something or I'm being too naive, and I beg my pardon for it, but this seems quite an easy and obvious solution to me.
Cruccone
Marco, your logic works very well only if we look at this in a linguistic vacuum without looking at politics or history. Linguistically, yes, Moldovan is the same as Romanian, and ro.wiki should be biscriptal. However, Romanian is never written in Cyrillic! If you go to Romania, you will never ever see Cyrillic script being used (just like in Italy you'd never see this). In Moldova, the majority of those who write in Cyrillic, which is a fairly small number anyway, refer to it as "Moldovan".
Putting Cyrillic content on ro.wiki would be quite strange because so few people use it when you combine Moldova and Romania together. Romanians would feel disillusioned in a way - it's not like Serbian or Chinese, where two scripts co-exist in general usage and both are significant.
I'll give you a hypothetical case. In Switzerland, Italian is an official language. Now let's say that until 1990, Swiss Italian was written in a different alphabet. After 1990, there was a significant movement to revert back to the Latin alphabet, and nowadays everyone uses Latin alphabet in Switzerland when writing Italian, except for a few who still prefer the old alphabet. Would it.wiki accept this new alphabet as part of a biscriptal Wikipedia? Considering that, say, out of a total of 70 million Italian speakers, only about 200,000 people still write in this strange alphabet, and of those, 180,000 can write well in the Latin alphabet? The case is similar to what the Moldovan-Cyrillic case is today.
Thanks,
Ronline
If the quality of the articles there is questionable, then so is the quality of ro.wiki articles because 99% of ours are copied from you.
Mark
On 05/12/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@gmail.com wrote:
How about having two DB tables, splitting the domain, like Chinese Wikipedia does (Simplified and Traditional)? _______________________________________________
I think that's unnecessary. The Moldovan language case is a unique one throughout the world in that Moldovan is a politically-renamed Romanian spoken in Moldovan. It would be just like the Austrian government declares today that the language spoken officially in Austria is called "Austrian". Therefore, we don't need a separate Wikipedia for Moldovan in Latin script
- Romanian can already cater for that. In fact, we have users from Moldova
reading and contributing to our content at ro.wiki.
For that reason, I think mo.wiki could be abolished entirely. If people really want a Cyrillic version, then it should be moved to mo-cyr, and mo should act as a portal, with one link to ro.wiki, one link to mo-cyr. But currently, the demand for Cyrillic is almost inexistent, and the quality of the articles there is very questionable.
Ronline _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org