Hi Servien!
Thanks for informing me about that. I must admit, I've never heard or read about ANS.
So, like the name suggests that's supposed to work in but countries? A good idea for
sure. However (and that's a big however), as far as I can tell noboby in Germany ever
writes that way. Just have a look a websites from Germany written in nds. You won't
ever find all those y's and v's there. Neither in Plattdüütsch literature you can
find in book stores in Northern Germany. While that ANS spelling system might be a good
thing in theory, I think you just couldn't re-educate thousands of people in order to
have one single nds Wikipedia. But I guess I don't have to convince _you_ anyway.
Thanks for the sample phrase. Here's my try:
"Wenn <or "As"> en Minsch nich faken noog ruut <"na
buten" would also work> kümmt ward he ook nich <equivalent for "höyl"
would be "heel" but is usually not used here> bruun <future tense
"wöyrden" also omitted here> sünnern blievt witt. <Note: I can`t really
think of a word for "pale" now - you could possibly take "bleek"
(without "witt" in that case) but I'm not 100% sure here>
Even though I have tried to stick to your wording as closely as possible, I think the
differences are quite tremendous here. They go far beyond spelling. What was most striking
to me was the use of the future tense in your sample phrase. The Plattdüütsch I know just
doesn't have that - just like in spoken High German where that tense is not used
either. But also the word "mer" (that's like "maar" in Dutch,
isn't it?) wouldn`t be understood by readers in Germany. Other differences are less
severe, of course. E. g. "genog" instead of "noog" would surely be
understood, especially since we have "genug" in German. But take
"kump" (do you speak an "ü" or an "u" there?) for
"kümmt" for example or even "ie/y" instead of "he". If the
decision about a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia were in my hands and I had to make that
decision solely based on this one example - I would most definately create it! Not because
I want to separate Dutch and German wikipedians - it's the 21st century and thank God
we're good neighbours - but only of the language facts.
Boris
Servien Ilaino <servien(a)gmail.com>om>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05
15:33:43:
Hi Boris,
The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne
Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't
seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I
must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then
the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are
completely unknown to me...)
Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system:
As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny höyl bruyn wöyrden
mer sal y spyrwit blyven.
And here in the traditional one:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n
mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.
This is the one I use:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden
mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and
a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the
word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because
bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)
(Translation of the text:
If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look,
but will be pale white.)
Servien
2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger(a)web.de>de>:
Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that
it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called
sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course,
different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages
like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is
hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously,
at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any
efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is
still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native
in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in
"AGS" orthography:
Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray)
ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un >
"dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks
awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written
Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make
look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the
pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one
want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that
way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just
because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble
opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word
"kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either
Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
Coming from the "Ünner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de Ünnerelv (in Hamborg un ümto) ook
seggen. "Wat" kann dor in düsse/sükse Fällen liek as "dat" un
"de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
Hmm...
Boris
Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>om>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05
08:34:13:
Hi Boris,
I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of
people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of
Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh
wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which
is "based on Missingsch".
Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna
actually ken the leid.
(It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
"It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current
WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But
they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is
"Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of
German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms,
but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language,
the grammar and the authentic idiom."
Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ...
would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ...
and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really
only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient,
German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the
difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I
just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always
welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even
the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un
kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un
"dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Hmm...
Best
Mark
On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger(a)web.de> wrote:
Hi Mark!
I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I
just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near
Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to
be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattdüütsch.
Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However,
one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very
closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes
quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more
scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead
to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can
been seen very clearly in this article:
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has
two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first
("Norddüütsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second
("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think
even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this
is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more
"real", if you want.
I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?).
But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other
languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly
cope with that. However, I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low
Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
Boris
Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>om>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05
01:38:06:
Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on
ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real
nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have
personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about
nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but
rather a "contact variety".
Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this
huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the
fact that it's written in Missingsch.
Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start
real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
Mark
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