Hello,
Perhaps some of you are aware of the formation of the Langcom.
Also, you may be aware of the recent reform of the language proposal process.
However, what you may not be aware of is that the Language Committee is taking a while to actually get underway and to the point where they can excersise control over the creation of new Wikis.
Despite that, it seems that they are already looked to as an authority in this area, while they do not act as such.
There are several new Wikipedia requests which were uncontroversial when first posed. Many of dozens of voices of support, and have thriving tests on the Incubator.
However, their requests were deleted by PathosChild who said that they would have to remake them, which they have. So far, no proposals for Wikipedias in new languages have been _approved_ under the new proposal process, despite its having been around for several months now. They just sit there. And sit there. And sit there some more.
I think it's about time something happened. I think it's about time we welcomed these people -- the Kabyles, the Latgalians, the Lower Sorbians, the Crimeans, and all the others -- into our Wikipedia family. They have waited long enough. Why can't somebody do something? Why do they have to wait for the langcom to get underway? For all we know, that could take years.
Mark
Mark Williamson schreef:
Hello,
Perhaps some of you are aware of the formation of the Langcom.
Also, you may be aware of the recent reform of the language proposal process.
However, what you may not be aware of is that the Language Committee is taking a while to actually get underway and to the point where they can excersise control over the creation of new Wikis.
Despite that, it seems that they are already looked to as an authority in this area, while they do not act as such.
There are several new Wikipedia requests which were uncontroversial when first posed. Many of dozens of voices of support, and have thriving tests on the Incubator.
However, their requests were deleted by PathosChild who said that they would have to remake them, which they have. So far, no proposals for Wikipedias in new languages have been _approved_ under the new proposal process, despite its having been around for several months now. They just sit there. And sit there. And sit there some more.
I think it's about time something happened. I think it's about time we welcomed these people -- the Kabyles, the Latgalians, the Lower Sorbians, the Crimeans, and all the others -- into our Wikipedia family. They have waited long enough. Why can't somebody do something? Why do they have to wait for the langcom to get underway? For all we know, that could take years.
Mark
Hoi, The language committee has proposed things. It does not have the power to force issues. We are now at the stage where we have published our guidelines. We have given warning that we do adopt these guidelines as a rule if there was no indication of opposition to this. This has not happened. From our POV the rules as we published them apply.
All projects for a new language that do not have a work in progress in the Incubator are denied. Starting in the Incubator is mandatory. Working on the localisation is a strong factor in favour for granting a new language a project.
We have some questions outstanding with the board; particularly about the Belarus Wikipedia. In our opinion only the official Belarus Wikipedia has the right to the be.wikipedia label. We have asked at least a month ago for a resolution of this issue from the board. We do not want to take up new things that much if open things do not get resolved. It is a waste of our time otherwise.
We have already denied one proposal for an artificial languages that has no wide support. That one was obvious.
*The wls project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there are only 29,768 people speaking it .. Is this a reasonable proposal ? *The twd project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there is not even an estimation how many people are speaking it .. Is this a reasonable proposal ? *The stq project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages *The pfl project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The lld project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The kok project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are no articles *The kab project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages.
So basically from our point of view, it seems that the message files are not there. They are required.
Thanks, GerardM
I'm not complaining about be.wp, I know that is a difficult situation and I do not expect that it can be resolved soon.
It doesn't appear that anybody told any of these people that they are required to have a message file.
These requests are simply sitting there, nobody has actually told these people "We do not see ____, when you get that we will proceed further with considerations for your Wiki."
These people are very dedicated, I am sure if anyone had actually told them what exactly it is that they need to do to move forward, they would do it right away. I am sure the messages file would be translated into Kabyle, for example, in less than a week, if anyone had ever actually informed those people that it is needed.
- Wls - if there is "no reasonable support", the number of speakers is entirely irrelevant, of course the project is not viable since it has 0 articles in the incubator and nobody currently asking for its creation (there was only one person who did). - Twd - this case needs to be probed further to see how much Twents people would support it as a Wiki separate from nds-nl. There are already over two hundred articles in it, but the majority are at nds-nl.wp. User:Tubantia indicated preliminary support of such a request some time ago, so it needs to be re-investigated to see if this is a viable project or not, and whether the needs of Twents-speakers are currently being surved by our existing project (nds-nl) - Stq - this is obviously a viable project. There is support of native speakers, many many pages and very active on the incubator. So you want a message file. Why didn't you tell the people working on this project? I am sure they would prepare it in several days. - Pfl - this project appears to still be in the early stages of incubator development. At this point in time, I don't expect it to be approved by anyone. - Lld - same as pfl, except I do not expect its development soon. Someone needs to investigate how well existing users are served by rm.wp and fur.wp. - Kok - although this is a major language of India with millions of speakers, it is a problem that there are currently no articles. I'm sure Frederick Noronha could remedy this, though; in the meantime, I agree and do not think it would be reasonable to approve the project. - Kab - same as stq.
Others you failed to mention:
- Bat-ltg/lv-ltg - same situation as stq. - Crh - same situation as stq. - Dsb - same situation as stq.
It seems that if your rules mean that these Wikis are not able to be created now, it is not necessarily the case that there is no opposition (although it may be), the case currently is that _nobody knows about the rules_. When you have a new policy with as much impact as this one, it is imperative that it be solicited to all the persons and communities to whom it is relevant, and their opinion awaited. This is a Wiki, I am sure that even people who support the policy will have suggestions for its improvement, but so far very few have shown up because you have not advertised it much.
Mark
On 05/03/07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark Williamson schreef:
Hello,
Perhaps some of you are aware of the formation of the Langcom.
Also, you may be aware of the recent reform of the language proposal process.
However, what you may not be aware of is that the Language Committee is taking a while to actually get underway and to the point where they can excersise control over the creation of new Wikis.
Despite that, it seems that they are already looked to as an authority in this area, while they do not act as such.
There are several new Wikipedia requests which were uncontroversial when first posed. Many of dozens of voices of support, and have thriving tests on the Incubator.
However, their requests were deleted by PathosChild who said that they would have to remake them, which they have. So far, no proposals for Wikipedias in new languages have been _approved_ under the new proposal process, despite its having been around for several months now. They just sit there. And sit there. And sit there some more.
I think it's about time something happened. I think it's about time we welcomed these people -- the Kabyles, the Latgalians, the Lower Sorbians, the Crimeans, and all the others -- into our Wikipedia family. They have waited long enough. Why can't somebody do something? Why do they have to wait for the langcom to get underway? For all we know, that could take years.
Mark
Hoi, The language committee has proposed things. It does not have the power to force issues. We are now at the stage where we have published our guidelines. We have given warning that we do adopt these guidelines as a rule if there was no indication of opposition to this. This has not happened. From our POV the rules as we published them apply.
All projects for a new language that do not have a work in progress in the Incubator are denied. Starting in the Incubator is mandatory. Working on the localisation is a strong factor in favour for granting a new language a project.
We have some questions outstanding with the board; particularly about the Belarus Wikipedia. In our opinion only the official Belarus Wikipedia has the right to the be.wikipedia label. We have asked at least a month ago for a resolution of this issue from the board. We do not want to take up new things that much if open things do not get resolved. It is a waste of our time otherwise.
We have already denied one proposal for an artificial languages that has no wide support. That one was obvious.
*The wls project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there are only 29,768 people speaking it .. Is this a reasonable proposal ? *The twd project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there is not even an estimation how many people are speaking it .. Is this a reasonable proposal ? *The stq project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages *The pfl project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The lld project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The kok project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are no articles *The kab project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages.
So basically from our point of view, it seems that the message files are not there. They are required.
Thanks, GerardM
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, We are now at the stage where we have a policy. We are not interested in talking the proposal to death. We are first going to see how it functions. When we find that it does not work, we will tweak things carefully. The lack of having message files for all languages is one of the major shortcomings in the current localisation procedures.
You may think of it as a technicality or not fair. The point is that the developers proved to be unwilling to remedy things in the past (for instance for Marathi). The only consequence can be that new projects have to have message files from the start. It is not fair to start new languages that are incomplete; it is not fair to require the localisation to be done again when a new project is requested in the same language.
Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not complaining about be.wp, I know that is a difficult situation and I do not expect that it can be resolved soon.
It doesn't appear that anybody told any of these people that they are required to have a message file.
These requests are simply sitting there, nobody has actually told these people "We do not see ____, when you get that we will proceed further with considerations for your Wiki."
These people are very dedicated, I am sure if anyone had actually told them what exactly it is that they need to do to move forward, they would do it right away. I am sure the messages file would be translated into Kabyle, for example, in less than a week, if anyone had ever actually informed those people that it is needed.
- Wls - if there is "no reasonable support", the number of speakers is
entirely irrelevant, of course the project is not viable since it has 0 articles in the incubator and nobody currently asking for its creation (there was only one person who did).
- Twd - this case needs to be probed further to see how much Twents
people would support it as a Wiki separate from nds-nl. There are already over two hundred articles in it, but the majority are at nds-nl.wp. User:Tubantia indicated preliminary support of such a request some time ago, so it needs to be re-investigated to see if this is a viable project or not, and whether the needs of Twents-speakers are currently being surved by our existing project (nds-nl)
- Stq - this is obviously a viable project. There is support of native
speakers, many many pages and very active on the incubator. So you want a message file. Why didn't you tell the people working on this project? I am sure they would prepare it in several days.
- Pfl - this project appears to still be in the early stages of
incubator development. At this point in time, I don't expect it to be approved by anyone.
- Lld - same as pfl, except I do not expect its development soon.
Someone needs to investigate how well existing users are served by rm.wp and fur.wp.
- Kok - although this is a major language of India with millions of
speakers, it is a problem that there are currently no articles. I'm sure Frederick Noronha could remedy this, though; in the meantime, I agree and do not think it would be reasonable to approve the project.
- Kab - same as stq.
Others you failed to mention:
- Bat-ltg/lv-ltg - same situation as stq.
- Crh - same situation as stq.
- Dsb - same situation as stq.
It seems that if your rules mean that these Wikis are not able to be created now, it is not necessarily the case that there is no opposition (although it may be), the case currently is that _nobody knows about the rules_. When you have a new policy with as much impact as this one, it is imperative that it be solicited to all the persons and communities to whom it is relevant, and their opinion awaited. This is a Wiki, I am sure that even people who support the policy will have suggestions for its improvement, but so far very few have shown up because you have not advertised it much.
Mark
On 05/03/07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark Williamson schreef:
Hello,
Perhaps some of you are aware of the formation of the Langcom.
Also, you may be aware of the recent reform of the language proposal
process.
However, what you may not be aware of is that the Language Committee is taking a while to actually get underway and to the point where they can excersise control over the creation of new Wikis.
Despite that, it seems that they are already looked to as an authority in this area, while they do not act as such.
There are several new Wikipedia requests which were uncontroversial when first posed. Many of dozens of voices of support, and have thriving tests on the Incubator.
However, their requests were deleted by PathosChild who said that they would have to remake them, which they have. So far, no proposals for Wikipedias in new languages have been _approved_ under the new proposal process, despite its having been around for several months now. They just sit there. And sit there. And sit there some more.
I think it's about time something happened. I think it's about time we welcomed these people -- the Kabyles, the Latgalians, the Lower Sorbians, the Crimeans, and all the others -- into our Wikipedia family. They have waited long enough. Why can't somebody do something? Why do they have to wait for the langcom to get underway? For all we know, that could take years.
Mark
Hoi, The language committee has proposed things. It does not have the power to force issues. We are now at the stage where we have published our guidelines. We have given warning that we do adopt these guidelines as a rule if there was no indication of opposition to this. This has not happened. From our POV the rules as we published them apply.
All projects for a new language that do not have a work in progress in the Incubator are denied. Starting in the Incubator is mandatory. Working on the localisation is a strong factor in favour for granting a new language a project.
We have some questions outstanding with the board; particularly about the Belarus Wikipedia. In our opinion only the official Belarus Wikipedia has the right to the be.wikipedia label. We have asked at least a month ago for a resolution of this issue from the board. We do not want to take up new things that much if open things do not get resolved. It is a waste of our time otherwise.
We have already denied one proposal for an artificial languages that has no wide support. That one was obvious.
*The wls project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there are only 29,768 people speaking it .. Is this a reasonable
proposal ?
*The twd project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there is not even an estimation how many people are speaking it .. Is this a reasonable proposal ? *The stq project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages *The pfl project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The lld project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The kok project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are no articles *The kab project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages.
So basically from our point of view, it seems that the message files are not there. They are required.
Thanks, GerardM
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
I'm not protesting it, I am simply saying that obviously nobody is aware of this requirement.
The people who are working on these projects are very dedicated, if they knew that this requirement existed, you can be sure that it would be fixed right away.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We are now at the stage where we have a policy. We are not interested in talking the proposal to death. We are first going to see how it functions. When we find that it does not work, we will tweak things carefully. The lack of having message files for all languages is one of the major shortcomings in the current localisation procedures.
You may think of it as a technicality or not fair. The point is that the developers proved to be unwilling to remedy things in the past (for instance for Marathi). The only consequence can be that new projects have to have message files from the start. It is not fair to start new languages that are incomplete; it is not fair to require the localisation to be done again when a new project is requested in the same language.
Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not complaining about be.wp, I know that is a difficult situation and I do not expect that it can be resolved soon.
It doesn't appear that anybody told any of these people that they are required to have a message file.
These requests are simply sitting there, nobody has actually told these people "We do not see ____, when you get that we will proceed further with considerations for your Wiki."
These people are very dedicated, I am sure if anyone had actually told them what exactly it is that they need to do to move forward, they would do it right away. I am sure the messages file would be translated into Kabyle, for example, in less than a week, if anyone had ever actually informed those people that it is needed.
- Wls - if there is "no reasonable support", the number of speakers is
entirely irrelevant, of course the project is not viable since it has 0 articles in the incubator and nobody currently asking for its creation (there was only one person who did).
- Twd - this case needs to be probed further to see how much Twents
people would support it as a Wiki separate from nds-nl. There are already over two hundred articles in it, but the majority are at nds-nl.wp. User:Tubantia indicated preliminary support of such a request some time ago, so it needs to be re-investigated to see if this is a viable project or not, and whether the needs of Twents-speakers are currently being surved by our existing project (nds-nl)
- Stq - this is obviously a viable project. There is support of native
speakers, many many pages and very active on the incubator. So you want a message file. Why didn't you tell the people working on this project? I am sure they would prepare it in several days.
- Pfl - this project appears to still be in the early stages of
incubator development. At this point in time, I don't expect it to be approved by anyone.
- Lld - same as pfl, except I do not expect its development soon.
Someone needs to investigate how well existing users are served by rm.wp and fur.wp.
- Kok - although this is a major language of India with millions of
speakers, it is a problem that there are currently no articles. I'm sure Frederick Noronha could remedy this, though; in the meantime, I agree and do not think it would be reasonable to approve the project.
- Kab - same as stq.
Others you failed to mention:
- Bat-ltg/lv-ltg - same situation as stq.
- Crh - same situation as stq.
- Dsb - same situation as stq.
It seems that if your rules mean that these Wikis are not able to be created now, it is not necessarily the case that there is no opposition (although it may be), the case currently is that _nobody knows about the rules_. When you have a new policy with as much impact as this one, it is imperative that it be solicited to all the persons and communities to whom it is relevant, and their opinion awaited. This is a Wiki, I am sure that even people who support the policy will have suggestions for its improvement, but so far very few have shown up because you have not advertised it much.
Mark
On 05/03/07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark Williamson schreef:
Hello,
Perhaps some of you are aware of the formation of the Langcom.
Also, you may be aware of the recent reform of the language proposal
process.
However, what you may not be aware of is that the Language Committee is taking a while to actually get underway and to the point where they can excersise control over the creation of new Wikis.
Despite that, it seems that they are already looked to as an authority in this area, while they do not act as such.
There are several new Wikipedia requests which were uncontroversial when first posed. Many of dozens of voices of support, and have thriving tests on the Incubator.
However, their requests were deleted by PathosChild who said that they would have to remake them, which they have. So far, no proposals for Wikipedias in new languages have been _approved_ under the new proposal process, despite its having been around for several months now. They just sit there. And sit there. And sit there some more.
I think it's about time something happened. I think it's about time we welcomed these people -- the Kabyles, the Latgalians, the Lower Sorbians, the Crimeans, and all the others -- into our Wikipedia family. They have waited long enough. Why can't somebody do something? Why do they have to wait for the langcom to get underway? For all we know, that could take years.
Mark
Hoi, The language committee has proposed things. It does not have the power to force issues. We are now at the stage where we have published our guidelines. We have given warning that we do adopt these guidelines as a rule if there was no indication of opposition to this. This has not happened. From our POV the rules as we published them apply.
All projects for a new language that do not have a work in progress in the Incubator are denied. Starting in the Incubator is mandatory. Working on the localisation is a strong factor in favour for granting a new language a project.
We have some questions outstanding with the board; particularly about the Belarus Wikipedia. In our opinion only the official Belarus Wikipedia has the right to the be.wikipedia label. We have asked at least a month ago for a resolution of this issue from the board. We do not want to take up new things that much if open things do not get resolved. It is a waste of our time otherwise.
We have already denied one proposal for an artificial languages that has no wide support. That one was obvious.
*The wls project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there are only 29,768 people speaking it .. Is this a reasonable
proposal ?
*The twd project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there is not even an estimation how many people are speaking it .. Is this a reasonable proposal ? *The stq project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages *The pfl project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The lld project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The kok project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages. There are no articles *The kab project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess the localisation of the messages.
So basically from our point of view, it seems that the message files are not there. They are required.
Thanks, GerardM
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, I will be happy to see that you are right once the message files exist. Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not protesting it, I am simply saying that obviously nobody is aware of this requirement.
The people who are working on these projects are very dedicated, if they knew that this requirement existed, you can be sure that it would be fixed right away.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We are now at the stage where we have a policy. We are not interested in talking the proposal to death. We are first going to see how it
functions.
When we find that it does not work, we will tweak things carefully. The
lack
of having message files for all languages is one of the major
shortcomings
in the current localisation procedures.
You may think of it as a technicality or not fair. The point is that the developers proved to be unwilling to remedy things in the past (for
instance
for Marathi). The only consequence can be that new projects have to have message files from the start. It is not fair to start new languages that are incomplete; it is not fair to require the localisation to be done again
when
a new project is requested in the same language.
Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not complaining about be.wp, I know that is a difficult situation and I do not expect that it can be resolved soon.
It doesn't appear that anybody told any of these people that they are required to have a message file.
These requests are simply sitting there, nobody has actually told these people "We do not see ____, when you get that we will proceed further with considerations for your Wiki."
These people are very dedicated, I am sure if anyone had actually told them what exactly it is that they need to do to move forward, they would do it right away. I am sure the messages file would be translated into Kabyle, for example, in less than a week, if anyone had ever actually informed those people that it is needed.
- Wls - if there is "no reasonable support", the number of speakers is
entirely irrelevant, of course the project is not viable since it has 0 articles in the incubator and nobody currently asking for its creation (there was only one person who did).
- Twd - this case needs to be probed further to see how much Twents
people would support it as a Wiki separate from nds-nl. There are already over two hundred articles in it, but the majority are at nds-nl.wp. User:Tubantia indicated preliminary support of such a request some time ago, so it needs to be re-investigated to see if this is a viable project or not, and whether the needs of Twents-speakers are currently being surved by our existing project (nds-nl)
- Stq - this is obviously a viable project. There is support of native
speakers, many many pages and very active on the incubator. So you want a message file. Why didn't you tell the people working on this project? I am sure they would prepare it in several days.
- Pfl - this project appears to still be in the early stages of
incubator development. At this point in time, I don't expect it to be approved by anyone.
- Lld - same as pfl, except I do not expect its development soon.
Someone needs to investigate how well existing users are served by rm.wp and fur.wp.
- Kok - although this is a major language of India with millions of
speakers, it is a problem that there are currently no articles. I'm sure Frederick Noronha could remedy this, though; in the meantime, I agree and do not think it would be reasonable to approve the project.
- Kab - same as stq.
Others you failed to mention:
- Bat-ltg/lv-ltg - same situation as stq.
- Crh - same situation as stq.
- Dsb - same situation as stq.
It seems that if your rules mean that these Wikis are not able to be created now, it is not necessarily the case that there is no opposition (although it may be), the case currently is that _nobody knows about the rules_. When you have a new policy with as much impact as this one, it is imperative that it be solicited to all the persons and communities to whom it is relevant, and their opinion awaited. This is a Wiki, I am sure that even people who support the policy will have suggestions for its improvement, but so far very few have shown up because you have not advertised it much.
Mark
On 05/03/07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark Williamson schreef:
Hello,
Perhaps some of you are aware of the formation of the Langcom.
Also, you may be aware of the recent reform of the language
proposal
process.
However, what you may not be aware of is that the Language
Committee
is taking a while to actually get underway and to the point where
they
can excersise control over the creation of new Wikis.
Despite that, it seems that they are already looked to as an
authority
in this area, while they do not act as such.
There are several new Wikipedia requests which were
uncontroversial
when first posed. Many of dozens of voices of support, and have thriving tests on the Incubator.
However, their requests were deleted by PathosChild who said that
they
would have to remake them, which they have. So far, no proposals
for
Wikipedias in new languages have been _approved_ under the new proposal process, despite its having been around for several
months
now. They just sit there. And sit there. And sit there some more.
I think it's about time something happened. I think it's about
time we
welcomed these people -- the Kabyles, the Latgalians, the Lower Sorbians, the Crimeans, and all the others -- into our Wikipedia family. They have waited long enough. Why can't somebody do
something?
Why do they have to wait for the langcom to get underway? For all
we
know, that could take years.
Mark
Hoi, The language committee has proposed things. It does not have the
power
to force issues. We are now at the stage where we have published our guidelines. We have given warning that we do adopt these guidelines
as a
rule if there was no indication of opposition to this. This has not happened. From our POV the rules as we published them apply.
All projects for a new language that do not have a work in progress
in
the Incubator are denied. Starting in the Incubator is mandatory. Working on the localisation is a strong factor in favour for
granting a
new language a project.
We have some questions outstanding with the board; particularly
about
the Belarus Wikipedia. In our opinion only the official Belarus Wikipedia has the right to the be.wikipedia label. We have asked at least a month ago for a resolution of this issue from the board. We
do
not want to take up new things that much if open things do not get resolved. It is a waste of our time otherwise.
We have already denied one proposal for an artificial languages that
has
no wide support. That one was obvious.
*The wls project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there are only 29,768 people speaking it .. Is this a reasonable
proposal ?
*The twd project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there is not even an estimation how many people are speaking it ..
Is
this a reasonable proposal ? *The stq project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess
the
localisation of the messages *The pfl project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess
the
localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The lld project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess
the
localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The kok project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess
the
localisation of the messages. There are no articles *The kab project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess
the
localisation of the messages.
So basically from our point of view, it seems that the message files
are
not there. They are required.
Thanks, GerardM
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
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I take it, then, that you have informed these people of the reason their requests are not approved yet?
We can't expect them to be telepathic, after all.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I will be happy to see that you are right once the message files exist. Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not protesting it, I am simply saying that obviously nobody is aware of this requirement.
The people who are working on these projects are very dedicated, if they knew that this requirement existed, you can be sure that it would be fixed right away.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We are now at the stage where we have a policy. We are not interested in talking the proposal to death. We are first going to see how it
functions.
When we find that it does not work, we will tweak things carefully. The
lack
of having message files for all languages is one of the major
shortcomings
in the current localisation procedures.
You may think of it as a technicality or not fair. The point is that the developers proved to be unwilling to remedy things in the past (for
instance
for Marathi). The only consequence can be that new projects have to have message files from the start. It is not fair to start new languages that are incomplete; it is not fair to require the localisation to be done again
when
a new project is requested in the same language.
Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not complaining about be.wp, I know that is a difficult situation and I do not expect that it can be resolved soon.
It doesn't appear that anybody told any of these people that they are required to have a message file.
These requests are simply sitting there, nobody has actually told these people "We do not see ____, when you get that we will proceed further with considerations for your Wiki."
These people are very dedicated, I am sure if anyone had actually told them what exactly it is that they need to do to move forward, they would do it right away. I am sure the messages file would be translated into Kabyle, for example, in less than a week, if anyone had ever actually informed those people that it is needed.
- Wls - if there is "no reasonable support", the number of speakers is
entirely irrelevant, of course the project is not viable since it has 0 articles in the incubator and nobody currently asking for its creation (there was only one person who did).
- Twd - this case needs to be probed further to see how much Twents
people would support it as a Wiki separate from nds-nl. There are already over two hundred articles in it, but the majority are at nds-nl.wp. User:Tubantia indicated preliminary support of such a request some time ago, so it needs to be re-investigated to see if this is a viable project or not, and whether the needs of Twents-speakers are currently being surved by our existing project (nds-nl)
- Stq - this is obviously a viable project. There is support of native
speakers, many many pages and very active on the incubator. So you want a message file. Why didn't you tell the people working on this project? I am sure they would prepare it in several days.
- Pfl - this project appears to still be in the early stages of
incubator development. At this point in time, I don't expect it to be approved by anyone.
- Lld - same as pfl, except I do not expect its development soon.
Someone needs to investigate how well existing users are served by rm.wp and fur.wp.
- Kok - although this is a major language of India with millions of
speakers, it is a problem that there are currently no articles. I'm sure Frederick Noronha could remedy this, though; in the meantime, I agree and do not think it would be reasonable to approve the project.
- Kab - same as stq.
Others you failed to mention:
- Bat-ltg/lv-ltg - same situation as stq.
- Crh - same situation as stq.
- Dsb - same situation as stq.
It seems that if your rules mean that these Wikis are not able to be created now, it is not necessarily the case that there is no opposition (although it may be), the case currently is that _nobody knows about the rules_. When you have a new policy with as much impact as this one, it is imperative that it be solicited to all the persons and communities to whom it is relevant, and their opinion awaited. This is a Wiki, I am sure that even people who support the policy will have suggestions for its improvement, but so far very few have shown up because you have not advertised it much.
Mark
On 05/03/07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark Williamson schreef:
Hello,
Perhaps some of you are aware of the formation of the Langcom.
Also, you may be aware of the recent reform of the language
proposal
process.
However, what you may not be aware of is that the Language
Committee
is taking a while to actually get underway and to the point where
they
can excersise control over the creation of new Wikis.
Despite that, it seems that they are already looked to as an
authority
in this area, while they do not act as such.
There are several new Wikipedia requests which were
uncontroversial
when first posed. Many of dozens of voices of support, and have thriving tests on the Incubator.
However, their requests were deleted by PathosChild who said that
they
would have to remake them, which they have. So far, no proposals
for
Wikipedias in new languages have been _approved_ under the new proposal process, despite its having been around for several
months
now. They just sit there. And sit there. And sit there some more.
I think it's about time something happened. I think it's about
time we
welcomed these people -- the Kabyles, the Latgalians, the Lower Sorbians, the Crimeans, and all the others -- into our Wikipedia family. They have waited long enough. Why can't somebody do
something?
Why do they have to wait for the langcom to get underway? For all
we
know, that could take years.
Mark
Hoi, The language committee has proposed things. It does not have the
power
to force issues. We are now at the stage where we have published our guidelines. We have given warning that we do adopt these guidelines
as a
rule if there was no indication of opposition to this. This has not happened. From our POV the rules as we published them apply.
All projects for a new language that do not have a work in progress
in
the Incubator are denied. Starting in the Incubator is mandatory. Working on the localisation is a strong factor in favour for
granting a
new language a project.
We have some questions outstanding with the board; particularly
about
the Belarus Wikipedia. In our opinion only the official Belarus Wikipedia has the right to the be.wikipedia label. We have asked at least a month ago for a resolution of this issue from the board. We
do
not want to take up new things that much if open things do not get resolved. It is a waste of our time otherwise.
We have already denied one proposal for an artificial languages that
has
no wide support. That one was obvious.
*The wls project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there are only 29,768 people speaking it .. Is this a reasonable
proposal ?
*The twd project has no reasonable amount of support at the moment, there is not even an estimation how many people are speaking it ..
Is
this a reasonable proposal ? *The stq project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess
the
localisation of the messages *The pfl project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess
the
localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The lld project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess
the
localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of a sufficient length. *The kok project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess
the
localisation of the messages. There are no articles *The kab project does not have a message file.. so we cannot assess
the
localisation of the messages.
So basically from our point of view, it seems that the message files
are
not there. They are required.
Thanks, GerardM
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
No, But I can expect them to read the mailing list. Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I take it, then, that you have informed these people of the reason their requests are not approved yet?
We can't expect them to be telepathic, after all.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I will be happy to see that you are right once the message files exist. Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not protesting it, I am simply saying that obviously nobody is aware of this requirement.
The people who are working on these projects are very dedicated, if they knew that this requirement existed, you can be sure that it would be fixed right away.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We are now at the stage where we have a policy. We are not
interested in
talking the proposal to death. We are first going to see how it
functions.
When we find that it does not work, we will tweak things carefully.
The
lack
of having message files for all languages is one of the major
shortcomings
in the current localisation procedures.
You may think of it as a technicality or not fair. The point is that
the
developers proved to be unwilling to remedy things in the past (for
instance
for Marathi). The only consequence can be that new projects have to have message files from the start. It is not fair to start new languages that are incomplete; it is not fair to require the localisation to be done
again
when
a new project is requested in the same language.
Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not complaining about be.wp, I know that is a difficult
situation
and I do not expect that it can be resolved soon.
It doesn't appear that anybody told any of these people that they
are
required to have a message file.
These requests are simply sitting there, nobody has actually told these people "We do not see ____, when you get that we will
proceed
further with considerations for your Wiki."
These people are very dedicated, I am sure if anyone had actually
told
them what exactly it is that they need to do to move forward, they would do it right away. I am sure the messages file would be translated into Kabyle, for example, in less than a week, if
anyone
had ever actually informed those people that it is needed.
- Wls - if there is "no reasonable support", the number of
speakers is
entirely irrelevant, of course the project is not viable since it
has
0 articles in the incubator and nobody currently asking for its creation (there was only one person who did).
- Twd - this case needs to be probed further to see how much
Twents
people would support it as a Wiki separate from nds-nl. There are already over two hundred articles in it, but the majority are at nds-nl.wp. User:Tubantia indicated preliminary support of such a request some time ago, so it needs to be re-investigated to see if this is a viable project or not, and whether the needs of Twents-speakers are currently being surved by our existing project (nds-nl)
- Stq - this is obviously a viable project. There is support of
native
speakers, many many pages and very active on the incubator. So you want a message file. Why didn't you tell the people working on
this
project? I am sure they would prepare it in several days.
- Pfl - this project appears to still be in the early stages of
incubator development. At this point in time, I don't expect it to
be
approved by anyone.
- Lld - same as pfl, except I do not expect its development soon.
Someone needs to investigate how well existing users are served by rm.wp and fur.wp.
- Kok - although this is a major language of India with millions
of
speakers, it is a problem that there are currently no articles.
I'm
sure Frederick Noronha could remedy this, though; in the meantime,
I
agree and do not think it would be reasonable to approve the
project.
- Kab - same as stq.
Others you failed to mention:
- Bat-ltg/lv-ltg - same situation as stq.
- Crh - same situation as stq.
- Dsb - same situation as stq.
It seems that if your rules mean that these Wikis are not able to
be
created now, it is not necessarily the case that there is no opposition (although it may be), the case currently is that
_nobody
knows about the rules_. When you have a new policy with as much
impact
as this one, it is imperative that it be solicited to all the
persons
and communities to whom it is relevant, and their opinion awaited. This is a Wiki, I am sure that even people who support the policy
will
have suggestions for its improvement, but so far very few have
shown
up because you have not advertised it much.
Mark
On 05/03/07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark Williamson schreef: > Hello, > > Perhaps some of you are aware of the formation of the Langcom. > > Also, you may be aware of the recent reform of the language
proposal
process.
> > However, what you may not be aware of is that the Language
Committee
> is taking a while to actually get underway and to the point
where
they
> can excersise control over the creation of new Wikis. > > Despite that, it seems that they are already looked to as an
authority
> in this area, while they do not act as such. > > There are several new Wikipedia requests which were
uncontroversial
> when first posed. Many of dozens of voices of support, and
have
> thriving tests on the Incubator. > > However, their requests were deleted by PathosChild who said
that
they
> would have to remake them, which they have. So far, no
proposals
for
> Wikipedias in new languages have been _approved_ under the new > proposal process, despite its having been around for several
months
> now. They just sit there. And sit there. And sit there some
more.
> > I think it's about time something happened. I think it's about
time we
> welcomed these people -- the Kabyles, the Latgalians, the
Lower
> Sorbians, the Crimeans, and all the others -- into our
Wikipedia
> family. They have waited long enough. Why can't somebody do
something?
> Why do they have to wait for the langcom to get underway? For
all
we
> know, that could take years. > > Mark Hoi, The language committee has proposed things. It does not have the
power
to force issues. We are now at the stage where we have published
our
guidelines. We have given warning that we do adopt these
guidelines
as a
rule if there was no indication of opposition to this. This has
not
happened. From our POV the rules as we published them apply.
All projects for a new language that do not have a work in
progress
in
the Incubator are denied. Starting in the Incubator is
mandatory.
Working on the localisation is a strong factor in favour for
granting a
new language a project.
We have some questions outstanding with the board; particularly
about
the Belarus Wikipedia. In our opinion only the official Belarus Wikipedia has the right to the be.wikipedia label. We have asked
at
least a month ago for a resolution of this issue from the board.
We
do
not want to take up new things that much if open things do not
get
resolved. It is a waste of our time otherwise.
We have already denied one proposal for an artificial languages
that
has
no wide support. That one was obvious.
*The wls project has no reasonable amount of support at the
moment,
there are only 29,768 people speaking it .. Is this a reasonable
proposal ?
*The twd project has no reasonable amount of support at the
moment,
there is not even an estimation how many people are speaking it
..
Is
this a reasonable proposal ? *The stq project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
localisation of the messages *The pfl project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of
a
sufficient length. *The lld project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of
a
sufficient length. *The kok project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
localisation of the messages. There are no articles *The kab project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
localisation of the messages.
So basically from our point of view, it seems that the message
files
are
not there. They are required.
Thanks, GerardM
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
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Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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I don't see the line in the new policy adopted by the langcom that says "Anyone with a proposal for a new Wikipedia should read wikipedia-l", nor do I see the line that enumerates the policy you have just stated to me about having complete interface translations.
If you are going to have a policy or expectation, you cannot expect people to guess it, it needs to be enumerated in the policy document.
I originally subscribed to this list because I was told that zh-tw was being discussed here; but this was only after I asked where the decisions were being made. This mailing list may be public, but it is not as if it is advertised on the main Wikipedia portal. And even people who are subscribed to this ML are unlikely to read every post.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
No, But I can expect them to read the mailing list. Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I take it, then, that you have informed these people of the reason their requests are not approved yet?
We can't expect them to be telepathic, after all.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I will be happy to see that you are right once the message files exist. Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not protesting it, I am simply saying that obviously nobody is aware of this requirement.
The people who are working on these projects are very dedicated, if they knew that this requirement existed, you can be sure that it would be fixed right away.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We are now at the stage where we have a policy. We are not
interested in
talking the proposal to death. We are first going to see how it
functions.
When we find that it does not work, we will tweak things carefully.
The
lack
of having message files for all languages is one of the major
shortcomings
in the current localisation procedures.
You may think of it as a technicality or not fair. The point is that
the
developers proved to be unwilling to remedy things in the past (for
instance
for Marathi). The only consequence can be that new projects have to have message files from the start. It is not fair to start new languages that are incomplete; it is not fair to require the localisation to be done
again
when
a new project is requested in the same language.
Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not complaining about be.wp, I know that is a difficult
situation
and I do not expect that it can be resolved soon.
It doesn't appear that anybody told any of these people that they
are
required to have a message file.
These requests are simply sitting there, nobody has actually told these people "We do not see ____, when you get that we will
proceed
further with considerations for your Wiki."
These people are very dedicated, I am sure if anyone had actually
told
them what exactly it is that they need to do to move forward, they would do it right away. I am sure the messages file would be translated into Kabyle, for example, in less than a week, if
anyone
had ever actually informed those people that it is needed.
- Wls - if there is "no reasonable support", the number of
speakers is
entirely irrelevant, of course the project is not viable since it
has
0 articles in the incubator and nobody currently asking for its creation (there was only one person who did).
- Twd - this case needs to be probed further to see how much
Twents
people would support it as a Wiki separate from nds-nl. There are already over two hundred articles in it, but the majority are at nds-nl.wp. User:Tubantia indicated preliminary support of such a request some time ago, so it needs to be re-investigated to see if this is a viable project or not, and whether the needs of Twents-speakers are currently being surved by our existing project (nds-nl)
- Stq - this is obviously a viable project. There is support of
native
speakers, many many pages and very active on the incubator. So you want a message file. Why didn't you tell the people working on
this
project? I am sure they would prepare it in several days.
- Pfl - this project appears to still be in the early stages of
incubator development. At this point in time, I don't expect it to
be
approved by anyone.
- Lld - same as pfl, except I do not expect its development soon.
Someone needs to investigate how well existing users are served by rm.wp and fur.wp.
- Kok - although this is a major language of India with millions
of
speakers, it is a problem that there are currently no articles.
I'm
sure Frederick Noronha could remedy this, though; in the meantime,
I
agree and do not think it would be reasonable to approve the
project.
- Kab - same as stq.
Others you failed to mention:
- Bat-ltg/lv-ltg - same situation as stq.
- Crh - same situation as stq.
- Dsb - same situation as stq.
It seems that if your rules mean that these Wikis are not able to
be
created now, it is not necessarily the case that there is no opposition (although it may be), the case currently is that
_nobody
knows about the rules_. When you have a new policy with as much
impact
as this one, it is imperative that it be solicited to all the
persons
and communities to whom it is relevant, and their opinion awaited. This is a Wiki, I am sure that even people who support the policy
will
have suggestions for its improvement, but so far very few have
shown
up because you have not advertised it much.
Mark
On 05/03/07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote: > Mark Williamson schreef: > > Hello, > > > > Perhaps some of you are aware of the formation of the Langcom. > > > > Also, you may be aware of the recent reform of the language
proposal
process. > > > > However, what you may not be aware of is that the Language
Committee
> > is taking a while to actually get underway and to the point
where
they
> > can excersise control over the creation of new Wikis. > > > > Despite that, it seems that they are already looked to as an
authority
> > in this area, while they do not act as such. > > > > There are several new Wikipedia requests which were
uncontroversial
> > when first posed. Many of dozens of voices of support, and
have
> > thriving tests on the Incubator. > > > > However, their requests were deleted by PathosChild who said
that
they
> > would have to remake them, which they have. So far, no
proposals
for
> > Wikipedias in new languages have been _approved_ under the new > > proposal process, despite its having been around for several
months
> > now. They just sit there. And sit there. And sit there some
more.
> > > > I think it's about time something happened. I think it's about
time we
> > welcomed these people -- the Kabyles, the Latgalians, the
Lower
> > Sorbians, the Crimeans, and all the others -- into our
Wikipedia
> > family. They have waited long enough. Why can't somebody do
something?
> > Why do they have to wait for the langcom to get underway? For
all
we
> > know, that could take years. > > > > Mark > Hoi, > The language committee has proposed things. It does not have the
power
> to force issues. We are now at the stage where we have published
our
> guidelines. We have given warning that we do adopt these
guidelines
as a
> rule if there was no indication of opposition to this. This has
not
> happened. From our POV the rules as we published them apply. > > All projects for a new language that do not have a work in
progress
in
> the Incubator are denied. Starting in the Incubator is
mandatory.
> Working on the localisation is a strong factor in favour for
granting a
> new language a project. > > We have some questions outstanding with the board; particularly
about
> the Belarus Wikipedia. In our opinion only the official Belarus > Wikipedia has the right to the be.wikipedia label. We have asked
at
> least a month ago for a resolution of this issue from the board.
We
do
> not want to take up new things that much if open things do not
get
> resolved. It is a waste of our time otherwise. > > We have already denied one proposal for an artificial languages
that
has
> no wide support. That one was obvious. > > *The wls project has no reasonable amount of support at the
moment,
> there are only 29,768 people speaking it .. Is this a reasonable proposal ? > *The twd project has no reasonable amount of support at the
moment,
> there is not even an estimation how many people are speaking it
..
Is
> this a reasonable proposal ? > *The stq project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
> localisation of the messages > *The pfl project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
> localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of
a
> sufficient length. > *The lld project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
> localisation of the messages. There are insufficient articles of
a
> sufficient length. > *The kok project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
> localisation of the messages. There are no articles > *The kab project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
> localisation of the messages. > > So basically from our point of view, it seems that the message
files
are
> not there. They are required. > > Thanks, > GerardM > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikipedia-l mailing list > Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l >
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Hoi, The language committee is about languages. When a language is proposed for the first time, we have certain requirements. I do not care at all what project is proposed as the first project for a language. From my pov that a Wikipedia is asked for most often is incidental.
You expect that there is a precise definition of what is required. It is not clear to me why this is a good thing. What we are looking for in a project is that it is a good start for a new language and that it is inviting for new people to join. The localisation of the UI is part of that. Some really well written articles are part of that. They are needed so that an expert of such a language can assess if it is indeed that language. When the language is a dead or artificial language, the requirements will be even higher.
There is no precise determination and that is imho a good thing; there is this commission that has been asked to decide on these issues. When need be we will ask specialists to assess the language used. We will take our time and this is also dependent on the cooperation we get in doing our job.
Thanks, GerardM
On 3/6/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I don't see the line in the new policy adopted by the langcom that says "Anyone with a proposal for a new Wikipedia should read wikipedia-l", nor do I see the line that enumerates the policy you have just stated to me about having complete interface translations.
If you are going to have a policy or expectation, you cannot expect people to guess it, it needs to be enumerated in the policy document.
I originally subscribed to this list because I was told that zh-tw was being discussed here; but this was only after I asked where the decisions were being made. This mailing list may be public, but it is not as if it is advertised on the main Wikipedia portal. And even people who are subscribed to this ML are unlikely to read every post.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
No, But I can expect them to read the mailing list. Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I take it, then, that you have informed these people of the reason their requests are not approved yet?
We can't expect them to be telepathic, after all.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I will be happy to see that you are right once the message files
exist.
Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not protesting it, I am simply saying that obviously nobody is aware of this requirement.
The people who are working on these projects are very dedicated,
if
they knew that this requirement existed, you can be sure that it
would
be fixed right away.
Mark
On 05/03/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We are now at the stage where we have a policy. We are not
interested in
talking the proposal to death. We are first going to see how it
functions.
When we find that it does not work, we will tweak things
carefully.
The
lack
of having message files for all languages is one of the major
shortcomings
in the current localisation procedures.
You may think of it as a technicality or not fair. The point is
that
the
developers proved to be unwilling to remedy things in the past
(for
instance
for Marathi). The only consequence can be that new projects have
to
have message files from the start. It is not fair to start new languages that
are
incomplete; it is not fair to require the localisation to be
done
again
when
a new project is requested in the same language.
Thanks, GerardM
On 3/5/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote: > > I'm not complaining about be.wp, I know that is a difficult
situation
> and I do not expect that it can be resolved soon. > > It doesn't appear that anybody told any of these people that
they
are
> required to have a message file. > > These requests are simply sitting there, nobody has actually
told
> these people "We do not see ____, when you get that we will
proceed
> further with considerations for your Wiki." > > These people are very dedicated, I am sure if anyone had
actually
told
> them what exactly it is that they need to do to move forward,
they
> would do it right away. I am sure the messages file would be > translated into Kabyle, for example, in less than a week, if
anyone
> had ever actually informed those people that it is needed. > > - Wls - if there is "no reasonable support", the number of
speakers is
> entirely irrelevant, of course the project is not viable since
it
has
> 0 articles in the incubator and nobody currently asking for
its
> creation (there was only one person who did). > - Twd - this case needs to be probed further to see how much
Twents
> people would support it as a Wiki separate from nds-nl. There
are
> already over two hundred articles in it, but the majority are
at
> nds-nl.wp. User:Tubantia indicated preliminary support of such
a
> request some time ago, so it needs to be re-investigated to
see if
> this is a viable project or not, and whether the needs of > Twents-speakers are currently being surved by our existing
project
> (nds-nl) > - Stq - this is obviously a viable project. There is support
of
native
> speakers, many many pages and very active on the incubator. So
you
> want a message file. Why didn't you tell the people working on
this
> project? I am sure they would prepare it in several days. > - Pfl - this project appears to still be in the early stages
of
> incubator development. At this point in time, I don't expect
it to
be
> approved by anyone. > - Lld - same as pfl, except I do not expect its development
soon.
> Someone needs to investigate how well existing users are
served by
> rm.wp and fur.wp. > - Kok - although this is a major language of India with
millions
of
> speakers, it is a problem that there are currently no
articles.
I'm
> sure Frederick Noronha could remedy this, though; in the
meantime,
I
> agree and do not think it would be reasonable to approve the
project.
> - Kab - same as stq. > > Others you failed to mention: > > - Bat-ltg/lv-ltg - same situation as stq. > - Crh - same situation as stq. > - Dsb - same situation as stq. > > It seems that if your rules mean that these Wikis are not able
to
be
> created now, it is not necessarily the case that there is no > opposition (although it may be), the case currently is that
_nobody
> knows about the rules_. When you have a new policy with as
much
impact
> as this one, it is imperative that it be solicited to all the
persons
> and communities to whom it is relevant, and their opinion
awaited.
> This is a Wiki, I am sure that even people who support the
policy
will
> have suggestions for its improvement, but so far very few have
shown
> up because you have not advertised it much. > > Mark > > On 05/03/07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
> > Mark Williamson schreef: > > > Hello, > > > > > > Perhaps some of you are aware of the formation of the
Langcom.
> > > > > > Also, you may be aware of the recent reform of the
language
proposal
> process. > > > > > > However, what you may not be aware of is that the Language
Committee
> > > is taking a while to actually get underway and to the
point
where
they
> > > can excersise control over the creation of new Wikis. > > > > > > Despite that, it seems that they are already looked to as
an
authority
> > > in this area, while they do not act as such. > > > > > > There are several new Wikipedia requests which were
uncontroversial
> > > when first posed. Many of dozens of voices of support, and
have
> > > thriving tests on the Incubator. > > > > > > However, their requests were deleted by PathosChild who
said
that
they
> > > would have to remake them, which they have. So far, no
proposals
for
> > > Wikipedias in new languages have been _approved_ under the
new
> > > proposal process, despite its having been around for
several
months
> > > now. They just sit there. And sit there. And sit there
some
more.
> > > > > > I think it's about time something happened. I think it's
about
time we
> > > welcomed these people -- the Kabyles, the Latgalians, the
Lower
> > > Sorbians, the Crimeans, and all the others -- into our
Wikipedia
> > > family. They have waited long enough. Why can't somebody
do
something?
> > > Why do they have to wait for the langcom to get underway?
For
all
we
> > > know, that could take years. > > > > > > Mark > > Hoi, > > The language committee has proposed things. It does not have
the
power
> > to force issues. We are now at the stage where we have
published
our
> > guidelines. We have given warning that we do adopt these
guidelines
as a
> > rule if there was no indication of opposition to this. This
has
not
> > happened. From our POV the rules as we published them apply. > > > > All projects for a new language that do not have a work in
progress
in
> > the Incubator are denied. Starting in the Incubator is
mandatory.
> > Working on the localisation is a strong factor in favour for
granting a
> > new language a project. > > > > We have some questions outstanding with the board;
particularly
about
> > the Belarus Wikipedia. In our opinion only the official
Belarus
> > Wikipedia has the right to the be.wikipedia label. We have
asked
at
> > least a month ago for a resolution of this issue from the
board.
We
do
> > not want to take up new things that much if open things do
not
get
> > resolved. It is a waste of our time otherwise. > > > > We have already denied one proposal for an artificial
languages
that
has
> > no wide support. That one was obvious. > > > > *The wls project has no reasonable amount of support at the
moment,
> > there are only 29,768 people speaking it .. Is this a
reasonable
> proposal ? > > *The twd project has no reasonable amount of support at the
moment,
> > there is not even an estimation how many people are speaking
it
..
Is
> > this a reasonable proposal ? > > *The stq project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
> > localisation of the messages > > *The pfl project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
> > localisation of the messages. There are insufficient
articles of
a
> > sufficient length. > > *The lld project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
> > localisation of the messages. There are insufficient
articles of
a
> > sufficient length. > > *The kok project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
> > localisation of the messages. There are no articles > > *The kab project does not have a message file.. so we cannot
assess
the
> > localisation of the messages. > > > > So basically from our point of view, it seems that the
message
files
are
> > not there. They are required. > > > > Thanks, > > GerardM > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikipedia-l mailing list > > Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > > > > > -- > Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. > > _______________________________________________ > Wikipedia-l mailing list > Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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