I've been told that Indymedia is run by a giant evil robot called "Hank".
His joints are oiled by the blood of capitalist babies.
Besides, I reject that implication. I'm a left-leaning libertarian ;-)
so hwo do we know that the volunteer work
put into a joint project won't be exploited by venture capitalists when
they try to turn Wikipedia into an IPO?
This sort of thing is why I feel it will be difficult to come to a
compromise. I admire IndyMedia for at least having the initiative to do
something that they think is obviously important, but this sort of almost
fanatical anti-business anti-capitalism rhetoric that is common over there
does not sit well with the principle of NPOV at all. IndyMedia are a
political advocacy site (they proudly say as much), and Wikimedia is
theoretically (at least) an unbiased, neutral source of information.
... unless I'm totally missing the fact that Chuck is having a little joke,
in which case I do apologise ;-)
Seriously though, I think we'd all love to have the IndyMedians aboard, but
our two different cultures are like oil and water, and I'm not sure that too
many of the ranters over there will be interested in putting aside their
political viewpoints to be of much use on Wikinews.
Now, go ahead and prove me wrong :-)
Regards,
- Craig Franklin
-------------------
Craig Franklin
PO Box 764
Ashgrove, Q, 4060
Australia
- Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
and Culture.
----- Original Message -----
From: <wikipedia-l-request(a)Wikimedia.org>
To: <wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:18 AM
Subject: [personal] Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 16, Issue 31
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fwd: Banned from editing except on en (Henry H. Tan-Tenn)
2. Re: no:/nb:/nn:/etc. - modified suggestion (Bjarte Sorensen)
3. Re: Wikinews demo launches! (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales)
4. Re: Re: Fwd: Banned from editing except on en
(Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales)
5. Re: Wikinews demo launches! (Erik Moeller)
6. Re: Fwd: Banned from editing except on en (Henry H. Tan-Tenn)
7. Baseldytsch Wikipedia: Who can put it online? (cdamvvwgs(a)gmx.ch)
8. Re: [IMC-Tech] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches! (Chuck0)
9. Re: [IMC-Tech] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches! (jeff)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:24:28 -0500
From: "Henry H. Tan-Tenn" <share2002nov(a)lomaji.com>
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Fwd: Banned from editing except on en
To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org
Message-ID: <cnb6qe$knb$1(a)sea.gmane.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
You are banned from editing at any wikipedia site
other than en.
Personally (and with all due respect to Jimbo), I'd prefer that
judgement be left to individual Wikipedias to decide, per their usual
policy of banning users.
Specifically, I personally wouldn't mind if Mark edit on zh-min-nan.
Evidence suggests that he is not a fluent speaker or writer of Southern
Min by any measure, but at the same time he has also shown some
willingness to learn. That willingness may well just be curiosity or
dabbling, but those tendencies are not themselves evil. Regardless of
his ultimate attainment in proficiency (if any), a degree of "language
exploration" might even be encouraged. In practice this could mean
devoting more community resources to correcting the learner's sentences,
but so long as the errors are made in good faith and not meant to
disrupt, they will be corrected in the usual wiki way.
Of course, if Mark were to engage in spamming (on zh-min-nan) or other
actions based on bad faith, he'd become a candidate for censure,
including the possibility of banning. Until and unless that occurs on
zh-min-nan, I'd personally not mind participation from him (or anyone).
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales <jwales(a)wikia.com>
> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:26:10 -0800
> Subject: Banned from editing except on en
> To: Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>
> Cc: Angela <beesley(a)gmail.com>om>,
As a courtesy to you, Mark, I'm not going to make a big public
spectacle of this, but if you would like to take it public, please do
so. I just see no reason at this juncture to put you through the
embarassment of a public ban.
You are banned from editing at any wikipedia site other than en. I
will make an adjustment to this if you can convince me that you are
fluent in any other language. It is simply unacceptable for you to
continue making edits to minor language wikis in the way that you
have.
We could enforce this ban at a technical level if we had to, but you
know how our system works enough to see that it would be quite a lot
of work for us. I don't think I've seen enough evidence of bad faith
on your part to think that you'd do that.
--Jimbo
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:27:19 +1100
From: Bjarte Sorensen <bjarte(a)pingpingping.com>
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: no:/nb:/nn:/etc. - modified suggestion
To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <1100554039.41991f3724a01(a)www.pingpingping.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I agree fully with Olve Utne's solution. I don't think it matters that
redirect to nb:-links. They are for the most part
pointing to articles
changed to reflect the move to nb:. When it comes to
static links on say
ones from nn: and nb: and the no: links will slowly
die away. So in other
words, it will be a temporary "problem", and both wikis will soon enough
required fully equal status.
Cheers,
Bjarte Sorensen
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:25:05 -0800
From: "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales(a)wikia.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches!
To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <20041115202505.GE21242(a)wikia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jama Poulsen wrote:
Has anyone been thinking about how Wikinews could
cooperate with the
Independent Media Center (IMC) project (
http://www.indymedia.org)?
I think that the culture clash would be substantial. Virtually all of
their text content is completely unusable due to strong POV.
I do think that Indymedia should use wikis, because I think that much
of their reporting could be strengthened by having an open editing
process. Most of their worst biases would not last 5 minutes in an
open editing situation. Even activists should learn that neutrality
is a powerful means to persuade people, as compared to radical
ranting.
--Jimbo
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:44:04 -0800
From: "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales(a)wikia.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Fwd: Banned from editing except on en
To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <20041115214404.GC32013(a)wikia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Henry H. Tan-Tenn wrote:
You are
banned from editing at any wikipedia site other than en.
Personally (and with all due respect to Jimbo), I'd prefer that
judgement be left to individual Wikipedias to decide, per their usual
policy of banning users.
The problem is: he has been making annoying edits on wikipedias that
do not have any current users. He removed all the interlanguage links
from one, and replaced the standard boilerplate text with his own
message and email address. When Angela fixed this, he reverted her.
This is just one example of an ongoing pattern of difficult behavior.
He is one of the main factors forcing us to pursue a policy locking or
closing small wikis, which is of course ironic, since he is an
activist for small language wikis.
He and I had a partly constructive dialogue about these issues earlier
today in IRC, and I am hopeful that some compromise can be worked out.
I admire his energy and enthusiasm, and I find him to be very bright.
But there have been several incidents that are just problematic to say
the least (look up the unresolved issue of sockpuppets for example),
and his hostility and personal attacks against people who are highly
respected in the community don't help at all.
I took this action at a global level rather than at an individual
project level, because that's where the problem has arisen.
If you want him to be able to edit at zh-min-nan, then that is enough
for me. He can do that. If anyone wants to vouch for him anywhere
else (in an active project), email me and it will be done.
--Jimbo
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: 15 Nov 2004 23:30:00 +0100
From: erik_moeller(a)gmx.de (Erik Moeller)
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches!
To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <9Kt$0Y8CpVB@erik_moeller>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Jimmy-
Jama Poulsen wrote:
> Has anyone been thinking about how Wikinews could cooperate with the
> Independent Media Center (IMC) project (
http://www.indymedia.org)?
I think that the culture clash would be
substantial. Virtually all of
their text content is completely unusable due to strong POV.
I certainly would like us to cooperate wherever reasonably possible.
Indymedia explicitly does not want to follow a neutral point of view, and
that is good -- otherwise they'd be competing with us and we'd have to
destroy them ;-). They can take Wikinews content and develop it from a
lefty POV, if they want. I for one would be interested in some of their
video and picture material. It's perfectly legitimate for Wikinews to
cover the same protests Indymedia does, for example, but from an NPOV.
I'll be talking to some of the Indymedia folks in the coming weeks WRT
license compatibility. They have already expressed some interest.
Regards,
Erik
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:41:42 -0500
From: "Henry H. Tan-Tenn" <share2002nov(a)lomaji.com>
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Fwd: Banned from editing except on en
To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org
Message-ID: <cnbern$90t$1(a)sea.gmane.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi, Jimbo,
You are quite right that the inactive Wikipedias are not being cared
for, except by some dedicated Wikipedian admins from the outside. So if
indeed someone has been a troublemaker (i.e. editing in bad faith) on
those inactive WPs, he or she should be judged accordingly, and I think
you and others have the trust of the larger community to make such a
decision. But again, I am not comfortable with the idea of a global ban
(except en:). I think each of the active WPs should consider the record
in the context of actual edits performed in each edition. That is,
assume he or she is on a "white list" for all WPs, and only ban him/her
_locally_ for violating specific community policies (which could well
differ). It could mean that a persistent editor would need to be banned
by and from all WPs, one by one, but so be it. (It maybe enough, IMO,
that all the WPs be notified that so-and-so is believed to have edited
in bad faith on one or more WP, and leave it at that.)
It was along this line that I proposed to remove Mark from a wide "black
list" as regards zh-min-nan (to be confirmed or rejected by other
editors there, of course). In that sense I was "vouching" for Mark, and
only in that sense (given my limited attempt to follow the discussion).
Anyway, I hope things work out for all.
~~~~
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales ti 2004/11/15 EP 04:44 sia-kong:
Henry H. Tan-Tenn wrote:
You are
banned from editing at any wikipedia site other than en.
Personally (and with all due respect to Jimbo), I'd prefer that
judgement be left to individual Wikipedias to decide, per their usual
policy of banning users.
The problem is: he has been making annoying edits on wikipedias that
do not have any current users. He removed all the interlanguage links
from one, and replaced the standard boilerplate text with his own
message and email address. When Angela fixed this, he reverted her.
This is just one example of an ongoing pattern of difficult behavior.
He is one of the main factors forcing us to pursue a policy locking or
closing small wikis, which is of course ironic, since he is an
activist for small language wikis.
He and I had a partly constructive dialogue about these issues earlier
today in IRC, and I am hopeful that some compromise can be worked out.
I admire his energy and enthusiasm, and I find him to be very bright.
But there have been several incidents that are just problematic to say
the least (look up the unresolved issue of sockpuppets for example),
and his hostility and personal attacks against people who are highly
respected in the community don't help at all.
I took this action at a global level rather than at an individual
project level, because that's where the problem has arisen.
If you want him to be able to edit at zh-min-nan, then that is enough
for me. He can do that. If anyone wants to vouch for him anywhere
else (in an active project), email me and it will be done.
--Jimbo
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:58:10 +0100 (MET)
From: cdamvvwgs(a)gmx.ch
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Baseldytsch Wikipedia: Who can put it online?
To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <31797.1100530690(a)www26.gmx.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello dear Wikipedians,
I listed a proposal for a Wikipedia in Baseldytsch (a swiss-german dialect
in Switzerland with its own dictionary and orthography, about one million
speakers; see also
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/
Request_for_new_language). I'm currently translating the interface (http:/
/meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Locales_for_the_Wikipedia_Software), but is there
anyone who can put the Baseldytsch Wikipedia online under the domain http:
//bsd.wikipedia.org/ ??? If yes, please do so! Or send me an e-mail how to
do so. Thank you very much,
CdaMVvWgS
--
Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail + 3 Top-Spielfilme auf DVD
++ Jetzt kostenlos testen
http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail ++
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:55:29 -0600
From: Chuck0 <chuck(a)mutualaid.org>
Subject: Re: [IMC-Tech] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches!
To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org
Cc: imc-tech(a)lists.indymedia.org
Message-ID: <4198DF81.6020201(a)mutualaid.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Jama Poulsen wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 07:05:46PM -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
>>http://demo.wikinews.org/
>>
>>After the successful wikinews vote
>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Vote
>>
>>the board has discussed and decided to move forward with this project!
>>This will also give people more of a chance to discuss the proposed
>>policies before the site goes live.
>
>
Has anyone been thinking about how Wikinews could
cooperate with the
Independent Media Center (IMC) project (
http://www.indymedia.org)?
In short, it seems to me that if these two
projects could join forces,
the end result would be more than just Wikinews and IMC separately.
I'm skeptical about this idea. What is the political orientation of
Wikinews? Indymedia exists as an alternative media space for the
political left (broadly defined). Is Wikinews apolitical, left-leaning,
or friendly towards neo-fascists? I've been told that Wikipedia is run
by right wing libertarians, so hwo do we know that the volunteer work
put into a joint project won't be exploited by venture capitalists when
they try to turn Wikipedia into an IPO?
I'm opposed to this partnership until it can be determined how Indymedia
would benefit from any partnership with a newly launched project.
Chuck Munson
Infoshop News
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:30:06 -0700
From: jeff <jeff(a)indymedia.org>
Subject: Re: [IMC-Tech] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches!
To: imc-tech(a)lists.indymedia.org
Cc: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org, Chuck0 <chuck(a)mutualaid.org>
Message-ID: <200411151630.06184.jeff(a)indymedia.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Chuck0 wrote:
Jama Poulsen wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 07:05:46PM -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo)
Wales wrote:
Has anyone been
thinking about how Wikinews could cooperate
with the Independent Media Center (IMC) project
(
http://www.indymedia.org)?
I'm skeptical about this idea. What is the political
orientation of Wikinews?
My guess is that it would have the "Neutral Point of View". I've
been impressed at how well wikipedia has been able to maintain
this goal on controversial subjects.
Indymedia exists as an alternative
media space for the political left (broadly defined). Is
Wikinews apolitical, left-leaning, or friendly towards
neo-fascists?
That's a bit harsh. Can you point to a single wikipedia article
that has been friendly to neo-fascists?
Indymedia is "left-leaning" but could certainly be an
automated/semi-automated contributor to wikinews even if there
are viewpoints on there that are generally not on Indymedia.
Wikinews could have both, like news.google. Wikinews is
probably more sympathetic to Indymedia than google as well.
See the wikipedia entry on Indymedia--it's current & good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indymedia
Or take a look at their entry on Anarchism (which nicely links
to Chuck's
infoshop.org):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
I've been told that Wikipedia is run by
right
wing libertarians, so hwo do we know that the volunteer work
put into a joint project won't be exploited by venture
capitalists when they try to turn Wikipedia into an IPO?
wikipedia is a non-profit and the articles are under the GFDL. I
doubt it will ever go IPO... For more info, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Overview_FAQ#Who_owns_Wikipedia.3F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home
If it ever does turn commercial, you can download the /entire/
database and set up your own wikipedia and do whatever you want
with the articles as long as you comply with the GFDL. See:
http://download.wikimedia.org/
I wish Indymedia database dumps were publicly available!
I'm opposed to this partnership until it can
be determined
how Indymedia would benefit from any partnership with a newly
launched project.
It could benefit by wider distribution of Indymedia content.
Wikipedia has a huge audience, and deservedly so. In general,
I'm in favor of collaboration between wikinews & indymedia.
Chuck, stop dissing one of my favorite Internet projects. ;)
Thanks,
-Jeff
------------------------------
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