just an opinion
I agree with Kat it may not be a very good idea to ask
for money in a press release. We want people to hear
about us, to come to see us, to be impress by our
And then, they might touch their pocket
You've got to show them something for them to give
money. => To see the site and the result
The little paypal stuff, isnot that a sort of a logo
you put somewhere in a corner ? And people click on it
to give money in some way ?
Well then, let's not speak about money in the press
release. Let's give people the desire to come and see
us instead. Then, when they are on the site, and are
impressed, they will click on that stuff sitting in a
corner, and make gift.
Mav, I hate to tell you that, but...just as holidays
times are different (but we work more every day :-)),
cultures toward money are different.
American people are very relax with money issues. In
other places, this is not so. Er...asking money in a
press release...I think...is...POV
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I'm not a lawyer. Anyone taking anything in the below text as legal advice
should be drawn and quartered.
on Wednesday 06 August 2003 00:40 -0700, Andre Engels wrote:
> 4B: We do not list the author of the last version plus at least five
> of the old version on the title page.
To quote from 4B:
"...unless they release you from this requirement."
One could easily argue that Wikipedia recieves an implicit release based on
the fact that it is self-evident to contributors before they submit anything
that we do not list the authors in this way.
> 4E: We do not add a copyright notice each time a new document is
To quote 4E in its entirety:
"E. Add an appropriate copyright notice for your modifications
adjacent to the other copyright notices."
WHAT other copyright notices?
>4F+addendum: The license notice of Wikipedia is not in the
> prescribed form,
> and it is not put on the title page
The only person concievably able to try and enforce that provision on
documents submitted to Wikipedia without looking like a complete idiot in
front of everyone -- including U.S. courts -- would be the original author,
and he'd have a time of it.
First, if he edited any other articles on Wikipedia without following 4F
himself, principles of mutually assured destruction apply; and people don't
often submit an article and then go away (articles that stick around, that
Secondly, are you aware of a principle called entrapment? When a
law-enforcement officer (e.g. police) essentially force a person to commit a
crime in order to arrest (and presumably prosecute) them for it, that's
entrapment. In contract law (which copyright licenses are part of in the
U.S.) it'll usually be under the broader concept of "bad faith". If someone
comes to Wikipedia, it will be self-evident that 4F is not followed. If they
then submitted an article and then sued when someone "violated" 4F, that'd be
willful negligence at best, which by itself is good cause for
dismissal/aquittal. In sane situations, it's called "bad faith", and not only
nullifies the claim, but may expose the complaintant to legal action.
> 4I: Our history section is called "<title> Revision history" rather than
"Judge! The contractor built my house two inches from where I told him to
build it in the middle of my empty 20-acre lot!"
"Did this cause you any damage or substantial emotional distress?"
Need I say more?
I made a first test-donation, please let me know if you got it (I don't
trust paypal yet... ;-)
A question, maybe also interresting for others:
I had to decide on paypal between
"Service: A payment for the performance of a service. Free!"
"Quasi-Cash: The transmission of money not involving an underlying service
or good. The bank that issued your credit card may treat this 'Quasi-Cash'
transaction as a cash advance and charge you cash advance fees. PayPal has
no control over these fees. If you select 'Quasi-Cash' you may want to use a
payment method other than Credit Card (Instant Transfer or eCheck) to avoid
potential fees. "
I decided for "Service" (e.g. Wikimedia is providing Webspace...?). Is this
right, or should I have taken "Quasi-Cash". What is a Donation in this case?
Thanks for an answer,
Joachim (aka Fantasy :-)
> Out of curiosity, does this apply across the entire EU, or only within
> the euro-zone? For example, could you send money DE->UK (or vice versa)
> for free?
My bank wrote to me:
Give the one who wants to send you money:
# your IBAN (International Bank Account Number)
# Your BIC(SWIFT-Code) (Bank Identifier Code)
"For payments in other european states please ask for IBAN and BIC of the
...I think, I found the line you where asking for:
"Alle EU-Überweisungen sind entgeltfrei"
in english: "All EU-transfers are free" (if you don't transfer more then
12.500 Euro ;-)
It is the "EU-Verordnung 2560/2001"
Hope this helps,
Joachim (aka Fantasy :-)
> Maybe you're not quite understanding all about paypal.
> I think I can easily have local bank accounts all over the world and
then > link them to Paypal for transfers.
If that is so, you're right I did not understand that. Paypal tells me
that in order to transfer money from my private bank account (without
using a credit card) I should send the money to a Dutch branch of the
Bank of America, so I figured that charging a Paypal account of a US
citizen would involve transferring the money to a bank in the US
directly. (For those who did not follow this thread, we are not talking
about transfer between two Paypal accounts).
In the Netherlands we have four banks that operate worldwide and are in
the world top 50 (ABN-AMRO is the largest), but because Paypal uses a
Dutch branch of the Bank of America that may be a logical choice.
Citibank has a large office in Amsterdam as well.
Still I think Germany would be a better start for a non US bank account,
due to its size and number of wikipedians there. It would still be a
worthwile undertaking even if it could not service as an inlet for
donations from other EU countries.
Jimmy Wales wrote on Thu Aug 21 13:04:03 UTC 2003:
> Tomorrow I will set up a web page on wikimedia.org (the foundation
> website) with a variety of buttons and what-not to use, but there's no
> reason you can't get started now if you like.
Can we already put this Informations on
or do you prefer to have wikimedia.org up first and only there the
Joachim (aka Fantasy :-)
In the Netherlands many people have credit cards, but most people only
use them occasionally (travel, dinner, new TV) and most people are
hesitant to use them on the web. Debit cards are much more popular; we
also use chip cards which are preloaded from a bank account and used
like a purse, no online transactions involved.
I do use my credit card for Paypal, Amazon and the like, but not without
some concern. Web transactions are often secure these days, but
occasionally a large firm is hacked and a whole customer database is
By far the most common method of asynchronous payment is by direct bank
transfer, no checks involved, no costs whatsoever, no paper work either,
most people do this electronically (they do trust the proprietary bank
software, which they believe is less easy to hack). For many people
Paypal would mean an investment in time, which might weigh heavier than
the financial investment.
International Money Orders are pretty expensive, I've done that once or
How about this: I can add money to my Paypal account for free through a
bank transfer (credit card is only needed for registration). All thas is
needed is the Paypal bank account number and an customer account
specific acces code. I'll copy Paypals explanation below.
This is business as usual for Europeans who as said before are used to
electronic bank transfers.
So maybe we could open a Wikimedia Paypal account in several countries.
Electronic transfer to a US Paypal account would be uneconomical due to
high bank fees.
To add funds to your PayPal account, you will need to go to your bank to
complete a bank transfer from your bank account to your PayPal account
using the information provided below. Be sure to include your Bank
Transfer ID, which is used to direct the funds into your PayPal account.
Transfer funds to the following account:
Name on Account: PayPal Inc
PayPal's Account Number: 266566472
Bank: Bank of America, N.A.
Important Note: In addition to the information above, be sure to also
include Your Bank Transfer ID on your bank transfer form.
(a 13 char alphanum code is shown here)
On your bank transfer form, specify the amount you would like to
transfer to your PayPal account. Your transfer must be a minimum of 1
Your deposit must be in Euros. If your deposit is not in Euros, the bank
will convert the funds to Euros prior to transferring the funds to
PayPal. If you have a Euro balance, your funds will be added to that
balance. Otherwise, your funds will be converted to the currency of your
primary balance. To calculate converted currency amounts, use the
It typically takes 3-4 business days after you initiate the transfer for
the funds to appear in your PayPal account. After your funds have been
successfully transferred to your PayPal account, your Sending Limit will
be increased by the amount of the transfer
Please pardon my ignorance (stupidity). You are seeking donations for
I have only a vague idea of what a server looks like, how big it is, what
1. What would the servers do for you?
2. How long would it take to get and install them?
3. How much money do you need?
Merritt L. Perkins
Walter Vermeir wrote:
>Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote in
>news:20030821130355.B456 at joey.bomis.com:
>>donation at wikipedia.org is the correct email
>>address to use.
>PayPal is popular but you need a credit card. Those
are not very popular in
>Europe. Expensive, unsucre and not very usefull. Most
transactions are done
>by bank tranfer and a debet card.
A few points:
-- Paypal does not require a credit card. You can
make direct bank
transfers as well.
-- Credit cards are not expensive -- they are entirely
certainly don't pay anything at all for any of mine
(and you don't pay
interest if you pay your bills on time either).
They're essentially the
same as a debit card, but more secure (if there's a
dispute with a
dishonest merchant, you don't pay until the dispute is
with a debit card they already have your money, and
you don't get it
back until the dispute is resolved -- also by law in
the US at least,
the consumer is only responsible for up to $50 of
credit card fraud).
-- In the US at least, most debit cards work through
the credit card
system as well. They're treated as debit, but you can
use them in a
credit card reader just fine.
This is just the perfect example that customs are
different and that some have no awareness of that.
France is the country were credit cards are the most
used. Because we worked on the little electronic
device for security, and I think our cards are amongst
the most secure cards in the world.
Basically every adult has a credit card. Only very
young people and people with bank problems do not. I
got mine at 16. It is very very common system of
paiement. And very very few people use debit card.
That is just not customary, unless you are in the
situation indicated above. I got a debit card at 14.
This has a price, mind you. About 250 FF a year...that
is ... well...say 40 euros a year. I think I pay 7
euros per months for 2 cards and account support.
Not exactly free. I could go to the movie with that.
>In the euro-zone you can make a bank transfer from
one account to a other
>account in the euro-zone for the same price like a
local transfer. That is
>almost always free.
>Whit PayPal there are transcation costs and change
from currency costs.
>A Wikimedia euro bankaccount in euro-zone state can
be usefull for
>donations from Europe. No need for a credit card,
easy to do, no loss of
>mony; 1 euro donation = 1 euro for Wikimedia. Not 1
euro - x%
On the other hand, the expenses are all currently in
the US, so the
currency will have to be converted at some point to
US$. This would
also require a resident of Europe to handle the bank
account and to
periodically mail checks to Jimbo (or bank transfer
the funds to a US
account, which probably isn't free).
I have never heard of paypal in france. I saw it on
american web sites. I doubt french would do donations
by that way, but who knows ? I think a bank account in
euros would not be a uninteresting choice.
Another cultural difference : French have heard a lot
that internet paiement are unsure and that they could
be cheated. For this reason, electronic sales are
still very low. Very. Another reason for which french
would probably not easily consider an electronic
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