>We can work with people who make changes we disagree with as long as all of
us can be civil, but it's the tiny
>minority who refuses to compromise (either direction) that cause the
problems.
The converse problem is, of course, Billy and Bobby who are fighting over
the cake. "I want the whole thing!" says Billy. "No, I want half!" says
Bobby. "Children, children!" says the mother. "You should compromise. Billy
gets 3/4 and Bobby gets 1/4."
Some people should not be compromised with, and there should be a mechanism
for dealing with this eventuality.
Matt
Ed Wrote to Zoe:
>Are you referring to Larry Sanger wiping Fred Bauder's comments from =
>talk:Larry Sanger?
Or Lir wiping Zoe's comments from Lir's talk page. I think it's apparent who's acting reasonable and who's not; I don't see why Zoe's worried aobut it. :-)
kq
You Wrote:
>So what do you do when you've gone back 15 edits, reverted to a clean version, incorporated all of the "good" changes that have happened since then, and the original perpetrator then comes along and adds his/her "bad" changes again? How long are you supposed to keep doing that?
Well, until you get tired of it, I guess. You're not obligated to do everything, Zoe. :-)
kq
You Wrote:
>What about people who are deleting other people's comments on their Talk pages?
>Zoe
On their *own* talk pages? Well, it's their own page. Isn't that what the general feeling was when the idea of putting ads on user pages came up?
kq
Are you referring to Larry Sanger wiping Fred Bauder's comments from talk:Larry Sanger?
If so, the custom apparently is: my user page and my talk:user page are mine. Yours are yours. Kind of like you can delete old messages from your answering machine.
But still the problem is: we are getting so big that we don't all know each other (as in a tiny village). The values must be made explicit, and rules to protect these values must be codified. I think that's what this week's debate was about.
Ed Poor
-----Original Message-----
From: Zoe [mailto:zoecomnena@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 3:54 PM
To: wikipedia-l(a)nupedia.com
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] I'm seeing a trend here or How to keepdrivingaway good contributors
What about people who are deleting other people's comments on their Talk pages?
Hello,
I followed the ongoing debate about how to deal with uncooperative users
with some astonishment. Some people seem to forget the first rule of
online-communities: Don't feed the trolls!
Precisely, it depends largely on each one's personal attitude how to deal
with jerks.
First, try to discuss only once. If your adversary does not answer in a
way you regard as serious, is insulting or refuses to substantiate claims
with arguments, immediately stop discussion - forever or until you see
somewhere else that he has changed his attitude. Don't try to educate
people except you specially like to do this. Don't feel responsible for
a jerk's metal health!
Second, take your time. Let him have his way, put the article on your
watchlist and silently revert the changes two weeks later without further
discussion. Time is on the side of the regulars, not the jerks.
Third, just an idea: to feel not so alone, you could put up a page
[[Wikipedia:Annoying users]] where you could state your feelings. If
enough votes come up on one person, this person could _ eventually_ be
banned.
Just my experiences from the German wikipedia where we had almost no edit
wars at all up to now. We have questionable contributions, some are
silently moved to talk pages, some are rewritten. Discussion is tried
once, after this fails the person is simply ignored.
just my two cents,
elian
--
Computers are like Airconditioners - they stop working properly when
you open windows
Well, that's what Jimbo and Cunctator are saying.
I don't like that, but it's Jimmy's living room and if I want to enjoy free drinks at his party I have to follow his rules.
It's just that this month's party has so many guests that I think Jimmy should deputize a few bouncers -- with written guidelines as to what's okay and what's not. I don't want to have to keep running to some fat old bald guy everytime someone on the guest list starts knocking drinks out of the other guests' hands.
A bit heavy on the metaphor, but I think that about sums it up.
Ed Poor
-----Original Message-----
From: Zoe [mailto:zoecomnena@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 3:44 PM
To: wikipedia-l(a)nupedia.com
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] I'm seeing a trend here or How to keep driving away good contributors
So we just let the obnoxious ones run roughshod over all of the work and ignore their ridiculous changes?
Zoe
mattheww+wikipedia(a)chiark.greenend.org.uk wrote:
Then he was under a misconception. He did not have to deal with them.
-M-
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> I hope we are all proud of ourselves about how
> tolerant we are with people who consistently exhibit
> anti-social behavior. Andre has left the project due
> to fatigue with having to deal with these miscreants
> and I am so /disgusted/ with loosing yet another great
> en.wiki contributor that for at least the next several
> days I am going to concentrate on the Spanish
> Wikipedia and contemplate priorities on my own future
> involvement in en.wiki.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
Now, hold on for just one cotton-pickin' minute here!
By golly, I'm not going to take this sittin' down. I try very hard to _reform_ and _raise_ people who haven't quite got the hang of things here. But I'm usually one of the first to say: if they won't play by the rules, show them the door!
I have repeatedly requested that we come up with some guidelines for -- well, behavior for want of a better word.
I have:
* made specific guideline suggestions of my own
* supported the ideas of others
* pointed out users who IMHO needed a temporary ban
* banned several graffiti artists and page deleters
The response has always been the same:
* people get up and leave (Like: Andre Engels -- goodbye)
* people tell me not to warn offenders with the word "sysop" after my name
What am I doing wrong, Mav? I trust you. You maintain NPOV, even when you and I are 180 degrees apart.
What am I doing wrong, Jimbo? Can't we have just a tad more authority to keep order? Must you and the developers be the only ones who can enforce the rules?
What am I doing wrong, Lee? We don't let kids break up a good poker game. But a lot of contributors will tell you: if that kid peeks at my cards/spills a drink on the chips/bets out of turn/etc. one more time I'm leaving the game. Right?
We must have clear guidelines and the power to enforce them.
If the rules are not clear, we have to rely on Jimbo or Lee or Brion to make a decision, inform us and then we have to spend a week or two discussing it.
When I taught Sunday School, I just gave trouble-makers a time-out for:
* hitting another pupil
* grabbing something (a book, a chair) from another pupil
* teasing another pupil
Within a half-dozen classes, I had perfect order -- and, to top it off, my class doubled in size! Kids started calling me Uncle Ed, and everyone wanted to be in my class? Why? Because they liked getting time-outs?
No, because they knew that no one would (1) hit them, (2) grab their things, or (3) tease them.
Let's come up with a set of guidelines and figure out how to give admins the power to enforce them -- in a way that does not curtail the ability of contributors to fulfill the mission of Wikipedia.
Ed Poor
I hope we are all proud of ourselves about how
tolerant we are with people who consistently exhibit
anti-social behavior. Andre has left the project due
to fatigue with having to deal with these miscreants
and I am so /disgusted/ with loosing yet another great
en.wiki contributor that for at least the next several
days I am going to concentrate on the Spanish
Wikipedia and contemplate priorities on my own future
involvement in en.wiki.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
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Hello,
just a quick and dirty design study for www.wikipedia.org (not all links
are working, some text isn't translated yet and no colors are defined)
http://www.djini.de/Uploads/wikipedia/wikipedia.html
(tested on IE (Mac), Mozilla, lynx, links, iCab and Omniweb)
Maybe after Cunctator could be convinced that no old links will be broken we
can progress a little bit in this affair.
Comments, critics, other drafts and so on welcome,
greetings,
elian
--
Your mouse has moved. WinNT must be restarted for the change to take effect.