Hi all, I've made a feeble effort to substantiate my hunch that Freedom of Panorama has been updated in SA law since the version cited by the deletionist, but haven't followed up properly.
Does anyone here know offhand?
On Mon, Oct 13, 2025 at 2:04 PM wikimediaza-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:
- Re: Deletions of Joburg History (Derek Moore)
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 06:29:17 +0200 From: Derek Moore weblearning@gmail.com Subject: [Wikimedia ZA] Re: Deletions of Joburg History To: wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: < CAM33Oq4zydxmfp0Qqq0k4jVcvqKL5_JsrsQL-KzLfBN4NE87QA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hello Keegan
Thanks for the reply. Good to hear from you. I can’t speak for the CapeTown Heritage Foundation, but I popped into visit Dianne Steele from Johannesburg Heritage Foundation. She’s also a Wikipedian and she confirmed that the JHF are very happy with the plaques appearing on commons. She worked with @BobbyShabangu, who has also uploaded many of these images for Joburgbedia. She completed the form for three files (that I uploaded) indicating they are released.
The text in from the form itself is not perfect. But it should be clear enough
I agree to publish the above-mentioned work under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International. I acknowledge that by doing so I grant anyone the right to use the work, even in a commercial product or otherwise, and to modify it according to their needs, provided that they abide by the terms of the license and any other applicable laws. I am aware that this agreement is not limited to Wikipedia or related sites. I am aware that the copyright holder always retains ownership of the copyright as well as the right to be attributed in accordance with the license chosen. Modifications others make to the work will not be claimed to have been made by the copyright holder. I acknowledge that I cannot withdraw this agreement, and that the content may or may not be kept permanently on a Wikimedia project.
There are a number of comments on the page itself. (I sound rather shrill).
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Catego...
Be great to have your voice heard..
Best Derek
On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 at 16:24, Keegan Leech keegankai@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for raising this Derek.
A quick question on copyright. Does anyone know what the
Johannesburg/Cape
Town Heritage Foundations would have to do to allow for pictures of the plaques to be used on Wikimedia? Is it possible for them to release some statement allowing for the use of these images without releasing their copyright over the text on the plaques? I'm sure it would be relatively easy to contact the J/CTHF and request a declaration from them.
Something
posted on their websites would be fine.
Additionally, it seems as though not all of the plaques were erected by these two foundations, and so there may be more copyright holders here. (E.g. this plaque seems to have been posted by the Geological Society of South Africa https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GSSA_W4A_Siltstone.jpg ) Can anyone can confirm who the copyright owners are?
Unfortunately, I do believe that the text of these plaques would be protected by copyright as artistic works (see copyright act: https://www.saflii.org/za/legis/consol_act/ca1978133/ ). Just being informational does not exempt them any more than it would exempt, say, a history book. However, there are cases in which copyrighted works or excerpts thereof, may appear on Wikipedia. So these images could theoretically be uploaded to individual Wikipedia pages, if clearly labelled as including copyrighted material. They should probably not be
on
Commons under creative commons licenses (as many of them are) unless the JHF or whoever the copyright holders may be have released them from copyright.
Regards, Keegan
On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 at 09:58, Derek Moore weblearning@gmail.com wrote:
Dear fellow Wikipedians.
This is an odd issue, and I would appreciate your advice and support. Blue Plaques are a wonderful way to remember South African Heritage.
Now
for some reason, a Wikipedian in Canada (I think) has initiated a big deletion request of Blue plaques both in Cape Town and Johannesburg.
See
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Catego...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Catego...
It would be good if you could make your voices heard in the discussion
and
contest the deletion
Thanks
Kind Regards Derek
*Derek Moore* (He/Him) | Lead Consultant for Weblearning
*a: *Weblearning | 21 Kew Road, Richmond, 2092 | South Africa *w:* www.weblearning.co.za http://www.weblearning.co.za/ *m:* + 27
72
776 1001 *h: Mon, Thu, Fri: *8:30-5:00 (GMT+2) *Tue, Wed:* 9:00-5:00 (GMT)
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Hi all Signage and ingo plaques can be cited as sources without uploading images of them. The same as any other publication. Using the {{cite sign}} template makes it quite easy. Regards Roger (Dodger67)
On Mon, 13 Oct 2025, 15:00 Michael Graaf, graaf.michael@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all, I've made a feeble effort to substantiate my hunch that Freedom of Panorama has been updated in SA law since the version cited by the deletionist, but haven't followed up properly.
Does anyone here know offhand?
On Mon, Oct 13, 2025 at 2:04 PM wikimediaza-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send WikimediaZA mailing list submissions to wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe, please visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaza.lists.wikimedia.org/
You can reach the person managing the list at wikimediaza-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of WikimediaZA digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Re: Deletions of Joburg History (Derek Moore)
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 06:29:17 +0200 From: Derek Moore weblearning@gmail.com Subject: [Wikimedia ZA] Re: Deletions of Joburg History To: wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: < CAM33Oq4zydxmfp0Qqq0k4jVcvqKL5_JsrsQL-KzLfBN4NE87QA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hello Keegan
Thanks for the reply. Good to hear from you. I can’t speak for the
CapeTown
Heritage Foundation, but I popped into visit Dianne Steele from Johannesburg Heritage Foundation. She’s also a Wikipedian and she
confirmed
that the JHF are very happy with the plaques appearing on commons. She worked with @BobbyShabangu, who has also uploaded many of these images
for
Joburgbedia. She completed the form for three files (that I uploaded) indicating they are released.
The text in from the form itself is not perfect. But it should be clear enough
I agree to publish the above-mentioned work under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International. I acknowledge that by doing so I grant anyone the right to use the work, even in a commercial product or otherwise, and to modify it according to their needs, provided that they abide by the terms of the license and any other applicable laws. I am aware that this agreement is not limited to Wikipedia or related sites. I am aware that the copyright holder always retains ownership of the copyright as well as the right to be attributed in accordance with the license chosen. Modifications others make to the work will not be claimed to have been made by the copyright holder. I acknowledge that I cannot withdraw this agreement, and that the content may or may not be kept permanently on a Wikimedia project.
There are a number of comments on the page itself. (I sound rather shrill).
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Catego...
Be great to have your voice heard..
Best Derek
On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 at 16:24, Keegan Leech keegankai@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for raising this Derek.
A quick question on copyright. Does anyone know what the
Johannesburg/Cape
Town Heritage Foundations would have to do to allow for pictures of the plaques to be used on Wikimedia? Is it possible for them to release
some
statement allowing for the use of these images without releasing their copyright over the text on the plaques? I'm sure it would be relatively easy to contact the J/CTHF and request a declaration from them.
Something
posted on their websites would be fine.
Additionally, it seems as though not all of the plaques were erected by these two foundations, and so there may be more copyright holders here. (E.g. this plaque seems to have been posted by the Geological Society
of
South Africa https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GSSA_W4A_Siltstone.jpg ) Can anyone can confirm who the copyright owners are?
Unfortunately, I do believe that the text of these plaques would be protected by copyright as artistic works (see copyright act: https://www.saflii.org/za/legis/consol_act/ca1978133/ ). Just being informational does not exempt them any more than it would exempt, say,
a
history book. However, there are cases in which copyrighted works or excerpts thereof, may appear on Wikipedia. So these images could theoretically be uploaded to individual Wikipedia pages, if clearly labelled as including copyrighted material. They should probably not be
on
Commons under creative commons licenses (as many of them are) unless
the
JHF or whoever the copyright holders may be have released them from copyright.
Regards, Keegan
On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 at 09:58, Derek Moore weblearning@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear fellow Wikipedians.
This is an odd issue, and I would appreciate your advice and support. Blue Plaques are a wonderful way to remember South African Heritage.
Now
for some reason, a Wikipedian in Canada (I think) has initiated a
big
deletion request of Blue plaques both in Cape Town and Johannesburg.
See
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Catego...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Catego...
It would be good if you could make your voices heard in the
discussion
and
contest the deletion
Thanks
Kind Regards Derek
*Derek Moore* (He/Him) | Lead Consultant for Weblearning
*a: *Weblearning | 21 Kew Road, Richmond, 2092 | South Africa *w:* www.weblearning.co.za http://www.weblearning.co.za/ *m:* + 27
72
776 1001 *h: Mon, Thu, Fri: *8:30-5:00 (GMT+2) *Tue, Wed:* 9:00-5:00 (GMT)
You may get emails from me outside of normal working hours. Please do
not
feel any pressure to respond outside of your own working pattern. _______________________________________________ WikimediaZA mailing list -- wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to
wikimediaza-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe, send an email to %(real_name)s-unsubscribe@
%(host_name)s
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Subject: Digest Footer
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End of WikimediaZA Digest, Vol 174, Issue 3
-- Michael Graaf, M.Phil (UCT)
Researcher, Editor & Community Informatics Practitioner; Interim General Secretary, Yetu Infotech Collective Mob +27795487242 WhatsApp/ Telegram/ Signal +27647754342 Migrating to graaf.michael.za[at]proton.me _______________________________________________ WikimediaZA mailing list -- wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to wikimediaza-leave@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe, send an email to %(real_name)s-unsubscribe@%(host_name)s
Hello everyone, sorry for being slow to respond to this. Sadly Freedom of Panorama has not yet been added to SA law even though the Copyright Amendment act has been passed by both houses of parliament (twice) and has been waiting to be gazetted into law since 2018. Making it the law waiting the longest for enactment in the Ramaphosa Presidency. So long in fact that the Ramaphosa presidency is in violation of the constitution, been taken to the constitutional court twice, and lost, twice. The saga continues.
So at first glance it appears that our deletionist friends are right. My suggestion would be to get a letter from Heritage Johannesburg and Heritage Western Cape stating that they release the copyright of the plaques into the public domain, thereby allowing us to upload them to Commons. That process is outlined on Wikipedia here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us/Licensing but basically they need to email [photosubmission@wikimedia.org] with a letter stating that it is allowed. It would be helpful for us to get a copy of it so we can share it with the deletionists. Commons has a helpful template for generating these letters here ( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikimedia_VRT_release_generator).
Also, in recognition of the impending enactment of FoP into SA law the Commons community is obliged to tag all South Africa related content that is labeled for deletion for FoP reasons before deletion. This is so the files can be undeleted when FoB is gazetted into law.
Hope that helps, sorry I don't yet have better news on this.
Regards,
Douglas.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 at 14:00, Michael Graaf graaf.michael@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all, I've made a feeble effort to substantiate my hunch that Freedom of Panorama has been updated in SA law since the version cited by the deletionist, but haven't followed up properly.
Does anyone here know offhand?
On Mon, Oct 13, 2025 at 2:04 PM wikimediaza-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send WikimediaZA mailing list submissions to wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe, please visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaza.lists.wikimedia.org/
You can reach the person managing the list at wikimediaza-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of WikimediaZA digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Re: Deletions of Joburg History (Derek Moore)
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 06:29:17 +0200 From: Derek Moore weblearning@gmail.com Subject: [Wikimedia ZA] Re: Deletions of Joburg History To: wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: < CAM33Oq4zydxmfp0Qqq0k4jVcvqKL5_JsrsQL-KzLfBN4NE87QA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hello Keegan
Thanks for the reply. Good to hear from you. I can’t speak for the
CapeTown
Heritage Foundation, but I popped into visit Dianne Steele from Johannesburg Heritage Foundation. She’s also a Wikipedian and she
confirmed
that the JHF are very happy with the plaques appearing on commons. She worked with @BobbyShabangu, who has also uploaded many of these images
for
Joburgbedia. She completed the form for three files (that I uploaded) indicating they are released.
The text in from the form itself is not perfect. But it should be clear enough
I agree to publish the above-mentioned work under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International. I acknowledge that by doing so I grant anyone the right to use the work, even in a commercial product or otherwise, and to modify it according to their needs, provided that they abide by the terms of the license and any other applicable laws. I am aware that this agreement is not limited to Wikipedia or related sites. I am aware that the copyright holder always retains ownership of the copyright as well as the right to be attributed in accordance with the license chosen. Modifications others make to the work will not be claimed to have been made by the copyright holder. I acknowledge that I cannot withdraw this agreement, and that the content may or may not be kept permanently on a Wikimedia project.
There are a number of comments on the page itself. (I sound rather shrill).
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Catego...
Be great to have your voice heard..
Best Derek
On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 at 16:24, Keegan Leech keegankai@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for raising this Derek.
A quick question on copyright. Does anyone know what the
Johannesburg/Cape
Town Heritage Foundations would have to do to allow for pictures of the plaques to be used on Wikimedia? Is it possible for them to release
some
statement allowing for the use of these images without releasing their copyright over the text on the plaques? I'm sure it would be relatively easy to contact the J/CTHF and request a declaration from them.
Something
posted on their websites would be fine.
Additionally, it seems as though not all of the plaques were erected by these two foundations, and so there may be more copyright holders here. (E.g. this plaque seems to have been posted by the Geological Society
of
South Africa https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GSSA_W4A_Siltstone.jpg ) Can anyone can confirm who the copyright owners are?
Unfortunately, I do believe that the text of these plaques would be protected by copyright as artistic works (see copyright act: https://www.saflii.org/za/legis/consol_act/ca1978133/ ). Just being informational does not exempt them any more than it would exempt, say,
a
history book. However, there are cases in which copyrighted works or excerpts thereof, may appear on Wikipedia. So these images could theoretically be uploaded to individual Wikipedia pages, if clearly labelled as including copyrighted material. They should probably not be
on
Commons under creative commons licenses (as many of them are) unless
the
JHF or whoever the copyright holders may be have released them from copyright.
Regards, Keegan
On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 at 09:58, Derek Moore weblearning@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear fellow Wikipedians.
This is an odd issue, and I would appreciate your advice and support. Blue Plaques are a wonderful way to remember South African Heritage.
Now
for some reason, a Wikipedian in Canada (I think) has initiated a
big
deletion request of Blue plaques both in Cape Town and Johannesburg.
See
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Catego...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Catego...
It would be good if you could make your voices heard in the
discussion
and
contest the deletion
Thanks
Kind Regards Derek
*Derek Moore* (He/Him) | Lead Consultant for Weblearning
*a: *Weblearning | 21 Kew Road, Richmond, 2092 | South Africa *w:* www.weblearning.co.za http://www.weblearning.co.za/ *m:* + 27
72
776 1001 *h: Mon, Thu, Fri: *8:30-5:00 (GMT+2) *Tue, Wed:* 9:00-5:00 (GMT)
You may get emails from me outside of normal working hours. Please do
not
feel any pressure to respond outside of your own working pattern. _______________________________________________ WikimediaZA mailing list -- wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to
wikimediaza-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe, send an email to %(real_name)s-unsubscribe@
%(host_name)s
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%(host_name)s
Subject: Digest Footer
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End of WikimediaZA Digest, Vol 174, Issue 3
-- Michael Graaf, M.Phil (UCT)
Researcher, Editor & Community Informatics Practitioner; Interim General Secretary, Yetu Infotech Collective Mob +27795487242 WhatsApp/ Telegram/ Signal +27647754342 Migrating to graaf.michael.za[at]proton.me _______________________________________________ WikimediaZA mailing list -- wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to wikimediaza-leave@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe, send an email to %(real_name)s-unsubscribe@%(host_name)s
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