I am very concerned that postings to this list appear to be specific to the business of WMUK, a charity registered in England and Wales. The set of members of this email list and the set of members of the charity are distinct. I am a member of both.
Regards,
Gordo
On 21 April 2012 21:19, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
I am very concerned that postings to this list appear to be specific to the business of WMUK, a charity registered in England and Wales. The set of members of this email list and the set of members of the charity are distinct. I am a member of both.
Regards,
Gordo
I think Fae actually raised this point before as well - and I might agree to a point....
The Chapter and the UK community are distinct, certainly. And this list does get a lot of use for Chapter business - less so for general community issues.
What is the solution; to split the list?
It would be interesting to see the answer to several questions:
* How many members of this list are not members of the Chapter. * How many *active* members of this list are not members of the Chapter. * What is the percentage of Chapter/Non-Chapter posts.
I worry that any split of mailing lists will simply leave one of them (the community one) utterly inactive...
The line at which the chapter ends and the community begins is very blurred - largely by virtue of the fact that the most active community members are also active chapter members.
Tom
On 21 April 2012 21:19, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
I am very concerned that postings to this list appear to be specific to the business of WMUK, a charity registered in England and Wales. The set of members of this email list and the set of members of the charity are distinct. I am a member of both.
I'm not concerned by it. This list is for discussing things to relate to Wikimedia in the UK. The activities of Wikimedia UK definitely qualify.
On 21 April 2012 21:41, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
On 21 April 2012 21:19, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
I am very concerned that postings to this list appear to be specific to the business of WMUK, a charity registered in England and Wales. The set of members of this email list and the set of members of the charity are distinct. I am a member of both.
I'm not concerned by it. This list is for discussing things to relate to Wikimedia in the UK. The activities of Wikimedia UK definitely qualify.
Indeed. Considering the aim of the email was to get responses from community members who'd interacted with him, it was the obvious place to post, rather than some sort of official endorsement.
- d.
On 21 Apr 2012, at 21:24, Thomas Morton wrote:
The Chapter and the UK community are distinct, certainly. And this list does get a lot of use for Chapter business - less so for general community issues.
I'm not sure why the two of you are trying to draw this line in the sand, since I don't think it actually exists. These roles are two facets of the same thing - those involved in the chapter are part of the UK community, and those involved in the community part of the chapter. We're all Wikimedians, and we're all contributing to the Wikimedia 'movement'. The more overlap between these two facets, the better.
Thanks, Mike
On 21 April 2012 22:23, Michael Peel michael.peel@wikimedia.org.uk wrote:
On 21 Apr 2012, at 21:24, Thomas Morton wrote:
The Chapter and the UK community are distinct, certainly. And this list
does get a lot of use for Chapter business - less so for general community issues.
I'm not sure why the two of you are trying to draw this line in the sand, since I don't think it actually exists. These roles are two facets of the same thing - those involved in the chapter are part of the UK community, and those involved in the community part of the chapter. We're all Wikimedians, and we're all contributing to the Wikimedia 'movement'. The more overlap between these two facets, the better.
Thanks, Mike
Hmm. That line in the sand seems critical.
I'd hate for it to reach a point whereby to be a UK Wikimedian meant being part of Wikimedia UK. I consider those two roles, for myself, to be distinct. There are thousands of UK Wikimedians with no interaction or interest in WMUK - and that is fine. Someone could disagree entirely with the idea of chapters, or specifically the UK chapter, but still be a Wikimedian. That is the beauty of the movement.
Indeed; numerous high profile and prolific Wikipedians are not part of WMUK. And to take that a step further, some of us active in WMUK are not particularly active Wikipedians.
Tom
On 21 April 2012 22:51, Thomas Morton morton.thomas@googlemail.com wrote:
Hmm. That line in the sand seems critical.
I'd hate for it to reach a point whereby to be a UK Wikimedian meant being part of Wikimedia UK. I consider those two roles, for myself, to be distinct. There are thousands of UK Wikimedians with no interaction or interest in WMUK - and that is fine. Someone could disagree entirely with the idea of chapters, or specifically the UK chapter, but still be a Wikimedian. That is the beauty of the movement.
Indeed; numerous high profile and prolific Wikipedians are not part of WMUK. And to take that a step further, some of us active in WMUK are not particularly active Wikipedians.
I don't see anything to be gained by separating people into "part of" and "not part of" WMUK. Obviously, some people are members and some aren't, but all membership determines, really, is whether or not you can vote at the AGM.
You may not be a member of WMUK and may never have come to a WMUK event, but that doesn't mean you can't respond to an email about WMUK if you want to and think you have something to add to the discussion.
WMUK is there to support all Wikimedians in the UK. Different Wikimedians will choose to take advantage of that in different ways and to different extents, but just because you aren't active in the chapter doesn't mean you can't think of it as "your chapter". I would encourage all Wikimedians in the UK to feel ownership of the chapter, whether they actually want to do anything with the chapter or not.
On 21 April 2012 23:01, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
On 21 April 2012 22:51, Thomas Morton morton.thomas@googlemail.com wrote:
Hmm. That line in the sand seems critical.
I'd hate for it to reach a point whereby to be a UK Wikimedian meant
being
part of Wikimedia UK. I consider those two roles, for myself, to be distinct. There are thousands of UK Wikimedians with no interaction or interest in WMUK - and that is fine. Someone could disagree entirely with the idea of chapters, or specifically the UK chapter, but still be a Wikimedian. That is the beauty of the movement.
Indeed; numerous high profile and prolific Wikipedians are not part of
WMUK.
And to take that a step further, some of us active in WMUK are not particularly active Wikipedians.
I don't see anything to be gained by separating people into "part of" and "not part of" WMUK. Obviously, some people are members and some aren't, but all membership determines, really, is whether or not you can vote at the AGM.
You may not be a member of WMUK and may never have come to a WMUK event, but that doesn't mean you can't respond to an email about WMUK if you want to and think you have something to add to the discussion.
WMUK is there to support all Wikimedians in the UK. Different Wikimedians will choose to take advantage of that in different ways and to different extents, but just because you aren't active in the chapter doesn't mean you can't think of it as "your chapter". I would encourage all Wikimedians in the UK to feel ownership of the chapter, whether they actually want to do anything with the chapter or not.
Yes.
But, if someone wants sod all to do with the chapter then that is entirely up to them. And arguably the chapter shouldn't interpose itself in such a way as to stop those people having their own discussions.
That group is the majority after all.
WMUK is an awesome resource for the taking. But it is not the UK community.
Tom
On 21 April 2012 23:15, Thomas Morton morton.thomas@googlemail.com wrote:
Yes.
But, if someone wants sod all to do with the chapter then that is entirely up to them. And arguably the chapter shouldn't interpose itself in such a way as to stop those people having their own discussions.
That group is the majority after all.
WMUK is an awesome resource for the taking. But it is not the UK community.
The chapter isn't stopping anyone else using the list. WMUK is not the UK community, but it is part of the UK community and therefore has the same right to use this list as any other part of the UK community.
On 21 April 2012 23:19, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
On 21 April 2012 23:15, Thomas Morton morton.thomas@googlemail.com wrote:
Yes.
But, if someone wants sod all to do with the chapter then that is
entirely
up to them. And arguably the chapter shouldn't interpose itself in such a way as to stop those people having their own discussions.
That group is the majority after all.
WMUK is an awesome resource for the taking. But it is not the UK
community.
The chapter isn't stopping anyone else using the list. WMUK is not the UK community, but it is part of the UK community and therefore has the same right to use this list as any other part of the UK community.
By virtue of being very active the chapter may be stifling non-chapter chat.
I don't think that is the case. But it is important to self-critique that scenario a check.
I've been a member of many communities and my observation of them is this; it is very easy to have a perspective bias on things.
Tom
On 21/04/12 21:24, Thomas Morton wrote:
What is the solution; to split the list?
Yes, in my opinion. Then I will set up an email filter, and deal this the business of the Charity first.
Gordo
On 21/04/12 21:24, Thomas Morton wrote:
The line at which the chapter ends and the community begins is very blurred
Not in UK law. The Charity has members (and Trustees and staff). The membership have obligations in law. They are responsible, for example, for electing the Trustees and appointing the auditors, to name but two actions they perform.
Gordo
Another example: I get emails from The Tellers for the AGM. I assume that these will only go to members of the Charity?
And those are treated (by me) with a high priority.
Gordo
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
On 21/04/12 21:24, Thomas Morton wrote:
The line at which the chapter ends and the community begins is very blurred
Not in UK law. The Charity has members (and Trustees and staff). The membership have obligations in law. They are responsible, for example, for electing the Trustees and appointing the auditors, to name but two actions they perform.
I don't think anyone is unclear of the legal position. However, the charity also has a duty to look beyond its membership to the Wikimedia community and indeed to the general public.
As it happens, this list is one of our important (albeit limited) ways of reaching out to active Wikimedians in the UK, regardless of whether they are members of the charity or not.
Chris
For what its worth, I would prefer that WMUK matters are included to this list rather than have a separate mailing list. In my view the amount of UK specific Wikimedia Email has not yet got to the point where we need to subdivide the list. I'm sure the tellers will only allow members of the charity to vote at the AGM, and it is at that point that we really need to differentiate between UK Wikimedians who are or are not members of WMUK.
WSC
On 22 April 2012 11:48, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.comwrote:
On 21/04/12 21:24, Thomas Morton wrote:
The line at which the chapter ends and the community begins is very blurred
Not in UK law. The Charity has members (and Trustees and staff). The membership have obligations in law. They are responsible, for example, for electing the Trustees and appointing the auditors, to name but two actions they perform.
I don't think anyone is unclear of the legal position. However, the charity also has a duty to look beyond its membership to the Wikimedia community and indeed to the general public.
As it happens, this list is one of our important (albeit limited) ways of reaching out to active Wikimedians in the UK, regardless of whether they are members of the charity or not.
Chris
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
On the general point, it is my opinion that the Charity is a subset of the UK community; much as with a square and a rectangle, all that is Charity-related is ipso facto UK community-related; but not all that is UK community-related is necessarily Charity-related.
There's probably a technical term that logicians use to describe this, and no doubt someone will now embarrass me by posting a link to the relevant Wikipedia article...
On the specific point, and now with my Teller's hat on, items directly related to the business of the AGM including ballot papers go only to members, which is why Richard sends them as he has access to the membership database. Obviously we are checking that votes are cast only by members. On Apr 22, 2012 12:29 PM, "WereSpielChequers" werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
For what its worth, I would prefer that WMUK matters are included to this list rather than have a separate mailing list. In my view the amount of UK specific Wikimedia Email has not yet got to the point where we need to subdivide the list. I'm sure the tellers will only allow members of the charity to vote at the AGM, and it is at that point that we really need to differentiate between UK Wikimedians who are or are not members of WMUK.
WSC
On 22 April 2012 11:48, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.comwrote:
On 21/04/12 21:24, Thomas Morton wrote:
The line at which the chapter ends and the community begins is very blurred
Not in UK law. The Charity has members (and Trustees and staff). The membership have obligations in law. They are responsible, for example, for electing the Trustees and appointing the auditors, to name but two actions they perform.
I don't think anyone is unclear of the legal position. However, the charity also has a duty to look beyond its membership to the Wikimedia community and indeed to the general public.
As it happens, this list is one of our important (albeit limited) ways of reaching out to active Wikimedians in the UK, regardless of whether they are members of the charity or not.
Chris
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
I was going to say pretty much the same thing. This list is for discussions of interest to the UK community. WMUK is *part* of that community, and its business will be of interest to a large proportion of the community, so this list is exactly the right place for it.
Harry
________________________________ From: James Farrar james.farrar@gmail.com To: wikimediauk-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Sunday, 22 April 2012, 13:35 Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Ob Comments about our Chief Exec
On the general point, it is my opinion that the Charity is a subset of the UK community; much as with a square and a rectangle, all that is Charity-related is ipso facto UK community-related; but not all that is UK community-related is necessarily Charity-related. There's probably a technical term that logicians use to describe this, and no doubt someone will now embarrass me by posting a link to the relevant Wikipedia article... On the specific point, and now with my Teller's hat on, items directly related to the business of the AGM including ballot papers go only to members, which is why Richard sends them as he has access to the membership database. Obviously we are checking that votes are cast only by members. On Apr 22, 2012 12:29 PM, "WereSpielChequers" werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
For what its worth, I would prefer that WMUK matters are included to this list rather than have a separate mailing list. In my view the amount of UK specific Wikimedia Email has not yet got to the point where we need to subdivide the list. I'm sure the tellers will only allow members of the charity to vote at the AGM, and it is at that point that we really need to differentiate between UK Wikimedians who are or are not members of WMUK.
WSC
On 22 April 2012 11:48, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
On 21/04/12 21:24, Thomas Morton wrote:
The line at which the chapter ends and the community begins is very blurred
Not in UK law. The Charity has members (and Trustees and staff). The membership have obligations in law. They are responsible, for example, for electing the Trustees and appointing the auditors, to name but two actions they perform.
I don't think anyone is unclear of the legal position. However, the charity also has a duty to look beyond its membership to the Wikimedia community and indeed to the general public.
As it happens, this list is one of our important (albeit limited) ways of reaching out to active Wikimedians in the UK, regardless of whether they are members of the charity or not.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
_______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
On 22 April 2012 05:35, James Farrar james.farrar@gmail.com wrote:
On the general point, it is my opinion that the Charity is a subset of the UK community; much as with a square and a rectangle, all that is Charity-related is ipso facto UK community-related; but not all that is UK community-related is necessarily Charity-related.
There's probably a technical term that logicians use to describe this, and no doubt someone will now embarrass me by posting a link to the relevant Wikipedia article..
You'd probably use set theory, where WMUK is a subset of the movement's presence in this country. So, WMUK ⊆ UK movement. All WMUK matters are UK movement matters; not all UK movement matters are WMUK matters :)
.
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 23:24, Thomas Morton morton.thomas@googlemail.com wrote:
By virtue of being very active the chapter may be stifling non-chapter chat.
You put an image in my mind of non-chapter messages being bounced out of the system by a raging torrent of chapter messages that cannot be forded.
An image, I feel confident, bears no relation to reality.
Bodnotbod
wikimediauk-l@lists.wikimedia.org