This British library blog post may be of interest:
http://blogs.bl.uk/untoldlives/2017/01/major-new-digital-resource-for-the-in...
Thanks for sharing this Andy.
Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence. Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of the Wikimedia projects :)
Cheers Lucy
On 6 February 2017 at 13:27, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
This British library blog post may be of interest:
http://blogs.bl.uk/untoldlives/2017/01/major-new- digital-resource-for-the-india-office-records.html
-- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:
Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence. Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of the Wikimedia projects :)
I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that acted as if they were country of occupation in India?
Gordon
On 08 February 2017 at 08:57 Gordon Joly <gordon.joly@pobox.com> wrote: On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote: > > Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I > guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence. > Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of > the Wikimedia projects :) > I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that acted as if they were country of occupation in India?
Come now. The HEIC archives are of major historical significance, and that is nothing to do with thinking about whether they should have.
What I know about this, from a family member who writes on Indian history, is that there is altogether too much documentation. That is, with the classic historian's POV that you should master the documentary record, that proves too much for a typical scholarly lifetime. Obviously better access, transcription, indexation can make some impact there.
People do write on Wikipedia about East India Company leaders in the three presidencies. Often these articles are stubby and thinly referenced. Primary sources are problematic for referencing, as we know. Still, Wikipedia should be useful for annotation of this archive (i.e. encyclopedic material complements primary documents).
Plenty of stubs to choose from.
Charles
Ah OK, so it may be politically tricky/insensitive. Thanks Gordo. It's not an aspect of history I'm very familiar with but I suspect the answer to your question was yes, it was! Certainly looks that way from the Wikipedia page...
On 8 February 2017 at 08:57, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:
Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence. Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of the Wikimedia projects :)
I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that acted as if they were country of occupation in India?
Gordon
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
There's quite a lot of interest in this subject also because of the BBC series Taboo, which paints the East India Company in a pretty bad light that is quite believable given what is known about them. If anybody wants a somewhat long but illuminating read on them, I'd very much suggest the historian William Dalrymple's piece in the Graun https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/04/east-india-company-original-corporate-raiders from a couple of years ago.
Personally, I do think that if possible we should look at the possibility of bringing this collection onto Wikimedia projects, but I don't think it would be an appropriate project for trying to work with the Indian Wikimedia chapter or with the Indian diaspora here. I do think we should look at how we could do that in future with subject matter which is less contentious though.
John Lubbock
On 8 February 2017 at 10:22, Lucy Crompton-Reid < lucy.crompton-reid@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:
Ah OK, so it may be politically tricky/insensitive. Thanks Gordo. It's not an aspect of history I'm very familiar with but I suspect the answer to your question was yes, it was! Certainly looks that way from the Wikipedia page...
On 8 February 2017 at 08:57, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:
Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence. Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of the Wikimedia projects :)
I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that acted as if they were country of occupation in India?
Gordon
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
--
Lucy Crompton-Reid
Chief Executive
Wikimedia UK
+44 (0) 207 065 0991
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
What access does Wikimedia UK have to this archive? I know it is British Library materials, and that it will be accessible in the BL building, but isn't it otherwise behind a paywall? Not sure how many universities have subscribed to it yet either.
John
On 08/02/2017 10:22, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:
Ah OK, so it may be politically tricky/insensitive. Thanks Gordo. It's not an aspect of history I'm very familiar with but I suspect the answer to your question was yes, it was! Certainly looks that way from the Wikipedia page...
On 8 February 2017 at 08:57, Gordon Joly <gordon.joly@pobox.com mailto:gordon.joly@pobox.com> wrote:
On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote: > > Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I > guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence. > Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of > the Wikimedia projects :) > I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that acted as if they were country of occupation in India? Gordon
On 08 February 2017 at 12:46 John Lubbock john.lubbock@wikimedia.org.uk wrote:
There's quite a lot of interest in this subject also because of the BBCseries Taboo, which paints the East India Company in a pretty bad light that is quite believable given what is known about them
I think Taboo is great, at a graphic novel sort of level. People should know, though, that the East India Company was run by a board of 25 directors, rather than Jonathan Pryce doing a lot of swearing.
Among interesting employees were John Stuart Mill, and Thomas Love Peacock.
If anybody wants a somewhat long but illuminating read on them, I'd verymuch suggest the historian William Dalrymple's piece in the Graun https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/04/east-india-company-original-co... from a couple of years ago.
I don't know that Dalrymple is taken seriously as a historian. I recently enjoyed In the Footsteps of Stamford Raffles, by Nigel Barley, which complements Taboo in its own way.
Personally, I do think that if possible we should look at the possibilityof bringing this collection onto Wikimedia projects, but I don't think it would be an appropriate project for trying to work with the Indian Wikimedia chapter or with the Indian diaspora here. I do think we should look at how we could do that in future with subject matter which is less contentious though.
For heavens sake, WP has the mechanisms for dealing with contentious subjects. Communications being what they were, until the invention of the telegraph, there was a big disjunction between what the Company could get done from London; and what actually went on in South and East Asia. And what UCL are working on for the West Indies, someone should attempt for the East Indies.
Charles
If you have ideas Charles, I'm very happy to hear them. I just don't know what our connections with the Indian diaspora in the UK are right now and whether they'd be interested in doing something on these records, rather than preferring something on their own culture. You're welcome to propose ideas and to suggest people we might work with. I'm all ears. :)
John
On 8 February 2017 at 13:52, Charles Matthews < charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On 08 February 2017 at 12:46 John Lubbock john.lubbock@wikimedia.org.uk wrote:
There's quite a lot of interest in this subject also because of the BBC series Taboo, which paints the East India Company in a pretty bad light that is quite believable given what is known about them
I think Taboo is great, at a graphic novel sort of level. People should know, though, that the East India Company was run by a board of 25 directors, rather than Jonathan Pryce doing a lot of swearing.
Among interesting employees were John Stuart Mill, and Thomas Love Peacock.
If anybody wants a somewhat long but illuminating read on them, I'd very much suggest the historian William Dalrymple's piece in the Graun https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/04/east-india-company-original-corporate-raiders from a couple of years ago.
I don't know that Dalrymple is taken seriously as a historian. I recently enjoyed In the Footsteps of Stamford Raffles, by Nigel Barley, which complements Taboo in its own way.
Personally, I do think that if possible we should look at the possibility of bringing this collection onto Wikimedia projects, but I don't think it would be an appropriate project for trying to work with the Indian Wikimedia chapter or with the Indian diaspora here. I do think we should look at how we could do that in future with subject matter which is less contentious though.
For heavens sake, WP has the mechanisms for dealing with contentious subjects. Communications being what they were, until the invention of the telegraph, there was a big disjunction between what the Company could get done from London; and what actually went on in South and East Asia. And what UCL are working on for the West Indies, someone should attempt for the East Indies.
Charles
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
On 08 February 2017 at 13:57 John Lubbock john.lubbock@wikimedia.org.uk wrote:
If you have ideas Charles, I'm very happy to hear them. I just don't knowwhat our connections with the Indian diaspora in the UK are right now and whether they'd be interested in doing something on these records, rather than preferring something on their own culture. You're welcome to propose ideas and to suggest people we might work with. I'm all ears. :)
Other end of the telescope for me, really. We do have
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_East_India_Company_directors
and that says it was compiled from the EIC records. Looking down that list of names, one leapt out at me: it was the subject of a thread
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Carbon_Caryatid#Richard_Smith
which led to something good. Namely, a correct identification of the model (alleged) of the legal case in Bleak House. A good example of "follow the money", which is not in the nabobs and planters mainstream.
Well, I like complicated narratives and tangled family history. Feels like genuinely getting to grips with British history.
Charles
Being a Born Indian (now British though) I agree with you, not at all a good idea to work with India Chapter or diaspora. Though we Indian tend to forget our past very quickly so you might get lucky in getting some Indians involved in the project if WMUK took it.
Regards, Dhaval
On 8 Feb 2017 12:46, "John Lubbock" john.lubbock@wikimedia.org.uk wrote:
There's quite a lot of interest in this subject also because of the BBC series Taboo, which paints the East India Company in a pretty bad light that is quite believable given what is known about them. If anybody wants a somewhat long but illuminating read on them, I'd very much suggest the historian William Dalrymple's piece in the Graun https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/04/east-india-company-original-corporate-raiders from a couple of years ago.
Personally, I do think that if possible we should look at the possibility of bringing this collection onto Wikimedia projects, but I don't think it would be an appropriate project for trying to work with the Indian Wikimedia chapter or with the Indian diaspora here. I do think we should look at how we could do that in future with subject matter which is less contentious though.
John Lubbock
On 8 February 2017 at 10:22, Lucy Crompton-Reid < lucy.crompton-reid@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:
Ah OK, so it may be politically tricky/insensitive. Thanks Gordo. It's not an aspect of history I'm very familiar with but I suspect the answer to your question was yes, it was! Certainly looks that way from the Wikipedia page...
On 8 February 2017 at 08:57, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:
Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence. Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of the Wikimedia projects :)
I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that acted as if they were country of occupation in India?
Gordon
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
--
Lucy Crompton-Reid
Chief Executive
Wikimedia UK
+44 (0) 207 065 0991
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
I am an inactive volunteer (at present and been so for a while now), chanced upon this thread. In the past one of the projects I worked upon and was hoping would see light of day, some day, was release of thousands of India related images by the British Library under a free license. These images are part of our Indian national heritage and are of educational and cultural importance. They are from the 17th to the 20th century and include oil paintings, murals, portraits, photographs etc.
In 2014 I was in London for Wikimania, with the help of Jon Davies (then ED), Jonathan Cardy and Andrew Gray we had a meeting at BL and there was a serious effort to make this a reality but it was just about the time other things took precedence in personally for me and Wikimedia went on the back-burner. I attempted to revive talks on my visit to London last summer, in vein.
If anyone is willing to take this up, I would be most happy to share all the correspondence and minutes of meetings from the past (offlist) as well as try to put them in touch with BL (though WMUK might be better at the latter) and try to help out where possible, though I have severe time constraints which would prevent me from playing an active part in such an attempt.
Regards,
________________________________ From: Wikimediauk-l wikimediauk-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org on behalf of John Lubbock john.lubbock@wikimedia.org.uk Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 1:57:12 PM To: Charles Matthews; UK Wikimedia mailing list Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records
If you have ideas Charles, I'm very happy to hear them. I just don't know what our connections with the Indian diaspora in the UK are right now and whether they'd be interested in doing something on these records, rather than preferring something on their own culture. You're welcome to propose ideas and to suggest people we might work with. I'm all ears. :)
John
On 8 February 2017 at 13:52, Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.commailto:charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On 08 February 2017 at 12:46 John Lubbock <john.lubbock@wikimedia.org.ukmailto:john.lubbock@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:
There's quite a lot of interest in this subject also because of the BBC series Taboo, which paints the East India Company in a pretty bad light that is quite believable given what is known about them
I think Taboo is great, at a graphic novel sort of level. People should know, though, that the East India Company was run by a board of 25 directors, rather than Jonathan Pryce doing a lot of swearing.
Among interesting employees were John Stuart Mill, and Thomas Love Peacock.
If anybody wants a somewhat long but illuminating read on them, I'd very much suggest the historian William Dalrymple's piece in the Graunhttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/04/east-india-company-original-corporate-raiders from a couple of years ago.
I don't know that Dalrymple is taken seriously as a historian. I recently enjoyed In the Footsteps of Stamford Raffles, by Nigel Barley, which complements Taboo in its own way.
Personally, I do think that if possible we should look at the possibility of bringing this collection onto Wikimedia projects, but I don't think it would be an appropriate project for trying to work with the Indian Wikimedia chapter or with the Indian diaspora here. I do think we should look at how we could do that in future with subject matter which is less contentious though.
For heavens sake, WP has the mechanisms for dealing with contentious subjects. Communications being what they were, until the invention of the telegraph, there was a big disjunction between what the Company could get done from London; and what actually went on in South and East Asia. And what UCL are working on for the West Indies, someone should attempt for the East Indies.
Charles
_______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
Hello WhereDevilsDare! I would love to discuss this with you and any other Wikimedians in the UK who might be interested.
Regards,
John Lubbock Communications Coordinator Wikimedia UK
On 9 February 2017 at 04:17, Where Devels Dare wheredevelsdare@hotmail.com wrote:
I am an inactive volunteer (at present and been so for a while now), chanced upon this thread. In the past one of the projects I worked upon and was hoping would see light of day, some day, was release of thousands of India related images by the British Library under a free license. These images are part of our Indian national heritage and are of educational and cultural importance. They are from the 17th to the 20th century and include oil paintings, murals, portraits, photographs etc.
In 2014 I was in London for Wikimania, with the help of Jon Davies (then ED), Jonathan Cardy and Andrew Gray we had a meeting at BL and there was a serious effort to make this a reality but it was just about the time other things took precedence in personally for me and Wikimedia went on the back-burner. I attempted to revive talks on my visit to London last summer, in vein.
If anyone is willing to take this up, I would be most happy to share all the correspondence and minutes of meetings from the past (offlist) as well as try to put them in touch with BL (though WMUK might be better at the latter) and try to help out where possible, though I have severe time constraints which would prevent me from playing an active part in such an attempt.
Regards,
*From:* Wikimediauk-l wikimediauk-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org on behalf of John Lubbock john.lubbock@wikimedia.org.uk *Sent:* Wednesday, February 8, 2017 1:57:12 PM *To:* Charles Matthews; UK Wikimedia mailing list *Subject:* Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records
If you have ideas Charles, I'm very happy to hear them. I just don't know what our connections with the Indian diaspora in the UK are right now and whether they'd be interested in doing something on these records, rather than preferring something on their own culture. You're welcome to propose ideas and to suggest people we might work with. I'm all ears. :)
John
On 8 February 2017 at 13:52, Charles Matthews < charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On 08 February 2017 at 12:46 John Lubbock john.lubbock@wikimedia.org.uk wrote:
There's quite a lot of interest in this subject also because of the BBC series Taboo, which paints the East India Company in a pretty bad light that is quite believable given what is known about them
I think Taboo is great, at a graphic novel sort of level. People should know, though, that the East India Company was run by a board of 25 directors, rather than Jonathan Pryce doing a lot of swearing.
Among interesting employees were John Stuart Mill, and Thomas Love Peacock.
If anybody wants a somewhat long but illuminating read on them, I'd very much suggest the historian William Dalrymple's piece in the Graun https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/04/east-india-company-original-corporate-raiders from a couple of years ago.
I don't know that Dalrymple is taken seriously as a historian. I recently enjoyed In the Footsteps of Stamford Raffles, by Nigel Barley, which complements Taboo in its own way.
Personally, I do think that if possible we should look at the possibility of bringing this collection onto Wikimedia projects, but I don't think it would be an appropriate project for trying to work with the Indian Wikimedia chapter or with the Indian diaspora here. I do think we should look at how we could do that in future with subject matter which is less contentious though.
For heavens sake, WP has the mechanisms for dealing with contentious subjects. Communications being what they were, until the invention of the telegraph, there was a big disjunction between what the Company could get done from London; and what actually went on in South and East Asia. And what UCL are working on for the West Indies, someone should attempt for the East Indies.
Charles
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
wikimediauk-l@lists.wikimedia.org