On 19 September 2012 14:37, Thomas Morton <morton.thomas@googlemail.com> wrote:

Hi Roger,

Thanks for responding to some of the points!

I realise that this is a very interesting debate but do try and remember that these facts that are being discovered are public knowledge. The project was announced at Wikimania, no less, with a video that set out the projects plans and expectations. The video made it clear that the minister for tourism was involved and that this was not a WMUK project.

You mean the video that ends with the words "Wikimedia UK are looking forward to supporting the project"? Thats right - I didn't write those words WMUK did.

The project does not involve me in being paid to create articles. I am creating plaques based on QRpedia, I am supplying training and I am encouraging people to use and edit wikipedia (and open street map et al).

So to be clear; this training is for people involved in the project - i.e. outreach to train potential editors. If so, that seems a clear conflict of interest when editing related Wikipedia articles (i.e. you are being paid by people with a vested interest in those articles).

This isn't a credible argument unless you think I'm hypnotising them.

If this situation is the case, are you implying that the rest of the "Gibraltarpedia" project is organised via... a gratis offering from you and others? By the ministry of tourism? or?? Surely the project is predicated on the QRpedia plaques and training sessions!

I'm not implying anything and i find your question confusing.

I am interested in why you ignored standard advice for those with COI's to interact on the talk page?

I think that if you look at the pages for QRpedia, Monmouthpedia and Gibraltarpedia then you will see that I do use the talk page to interact with those pages. Despite some significant errors. So we agree that I'm not ignoring them.

Also this does not address the most pressing concern; which centres around how Gibraltar approached you, what you told/promised them and so forth. I am sure you can see there is a distinct difference between talking to them as a Wikimedia UK director or as a Wikipedian. Indeed; if you've used your role as a WMUK director in any reference to this project that is an ethical breach (the media are reporting you as such, but whether that is inaccuracy on their part, or quoted from your PR materials I do not know).

I was approached as the person "who did Monmouthpedia" by Gibraltar's Director of Heritage. This wasn't correct obviously but was the original approach to me. You are correct in assuming the press frequently make mistakes about job titles. Its bad enough explaining that I don't work for a company called Wikipedia. It isn't necessary to spread confusion - it makes itself.

Those who voted for me and/or attended the last wiki AGM/conference are aware that I was (and am) offering my expertise as a consultant. These are the same skills as I was paid for at the end of the Monmouthpedia project. All of this was overseen by the board. The COI conflict meant that I gladly stepped down as Chair but I was asked to stay on as a board member. The board agreed to manage the COI conflict, which I am obviously pleased to comply with.

This new project had not happened then. Monmouthpedia had not even launched fully! This is argument is a fallacy, just because the situation was acceptable/accepted several months ago does not apply indiscriminately to all future situations!

As Thomas Dalton pointed out the other day; the deeply concerning issue is the lack of demarcation between your role as a Wikipedian, your role as a WMUK director and your commercial Wiki-Towns business.

1. That's right it hadn't happened 2. Yes M'pedia hadn't completed - still hasnt. 3. Fallacy? Sorry your argument is deeply flawed.
4. Lack of demarcation - I agree. I frequently end up doing WMUK work in my own time. How do you and Tom D avoid it? Sorry rhetorical question as I don't expect a reply.

The only really key concerns for me are:

* Whether you have misused your position as trustee to further your commercial consultancy
* Whether (speaking as a Wikipedian) you have violated the ethics of the community during this project

Some comments on the above would be appreciated!

# No - I have referred ethical dilemmas to the board. I have offered my resignation twice and it has not been accepted. You will see that this email arrives from my private email. I do not use my wikimedia UK email. This is probably unnecessary but it makes sure people know that they are talking to me and not me as a wikimedia UK director.
# Ethics of the community ? My ethics are aligned with the Wikimedia mission. I am pleased by the credit I have received for my work from people who I respect.

Roger

On 19 September 2012 07:59, Doug Weller <dougweller@gmail.com> wrote:

I see a request to block Roger's User:Victuallers account as it is in
contravention of our Username policy on promotional names -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Username_policy#Promotional_names

Normally for an account this old (2007) we might not ask for a change
of name, but given the circumstances I think a name change might be a
good idea.

Doug Weller

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Andreas Kolbe <jayen466@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've located some more information about Geovation now by myself:
>
> https://challenge.geovation.org.uk/a/dtd/119163-16422
>
> Wales Coast Path only: What theme of the challenge does your idea address?:
> 3. Community engagement What problem are you trying to solve? : Green
> tourism: what's around me? What makes it different?
>
> How will your idea work? : There are two parts, fist we meet local groups
> and show them how to add information onto a Wikipedia page: and that's
> really simple! Secondly we show them how their articles can be geotagged.
> The best part is enjoying a walk down the path with a smart phone, with any
> AR tagged articles shown through the camera, informing the User (tourist or
> local) about what's around them: history of that unusual building or where's
> the nearest Young Farmers Club? What's the name of that mountain, and
> where's the nearest toilet! Take a look at MonmouthpediA on Wikipedia and
> multiply it by 10!
>
> How will it provide a solution to the Challenge? : It's the best answer
> possible! The local WI (or Merched y Wawr) will bring along old photographs,
> which would be scanned in and uploaded, and their locations geotagged. They
> would learn new skills on how to edit existing articles and how to create
> new ones. The local chapel could write about the history of their chapel,
> and so could the local cafe - including the opening times! Schools could
> show off their latest Brochure for Parents and even nature clubs could write
> about the local habitats. This is about: bringing people together in order
> to inform walkers, cyclists and joggers what's around them.
>
> What is the stage of development? What help and investment you need to build
> it?: Because Wikipedia is so simple, it's ideal for this project.
> Communities know about the geography and history, and culture of their area
> MUCH better than an app writer or web-author sitting in his office in
> Manchester! Wikimedia UK would be asked to run the scheme, employing
> Wikipedians, just as the National Library does in London... and the National
> Museum etc. Their help would be crucial. Welsh Wicipedians have also shown
> their enthusiasm and would filter out any unwanted vandalism. Wikipedia has
> a proven track record: why re-create the wheel all the time? It's an app
> which is already installed on most iPads and iPhones! Pure and simple.
>
> Neighbourhood Challenge only: How would you use Ordnance Survey data in your
> solution? : See below.
>
> Wales Coast Path only: How will you use geographic information in your
> solution? : Yes! Geotagging on Wikipedia is so easy! One line and the whole
> article pops up! Through Layar (invisible to the User), we would view
> through the camera's phone what's around us, and automatically a number of
> Wikipedian "W"s pop up wherever the article's location is. For example, an
> User takes a look at a cluster of mountains, and immediately the "W" shows
> that there is an article written, so the user chooses a mountain with his or
> her finger and they're straight into the article! And not just Cymraeg and
> English: there are over 250 languages on Wikipedia. All articles would be
> geographically and traditionally (OS) tagged.
>
> http://www.geovation.org.uk/teams-win-innovation-funding-wales-coast-path-challenge/
>
> Living Paths – Roger Bamkin and Robin Owain of Monmouthpedia were the pair
> behind this idea which will allow communities along the path to create a
> Wikipedia page and post stories about their communities allowing diverse
> local information to become accessible. Awarded: Ł17,500.
>
> As I see it, this is a programme whereby Wikimedia UK pays Wikipedians to
> get members of the public to become volunteer editors. You can see it as an
> editor recruitment programme, and as a programme to secure unemployed
> Wikipedian friends paid employment. There has been practically no discussion
> of this on wiki to date.
>
>
> Andreas
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 11:38 AM, Thomas Morton
> <morton.thomas@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hmm, well this is getting Murkier still. Have people violated these
>> principles.
>>
>> Someone on Jimbo's talk linked to this article:
>> http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=25440
>>
>> Which:
>>
>> a) Identifies Roger as WMUK director with implication he is acting in
>> official capacity
>> b) Says that Gibraltar approached WMUK
>>
>> I appreciated this is the media, so inaccuracey is likely. But I suggest
>> we quickly resolve the following issues:
>>
>> * Did Gibraltar approach WMUK, or is this incorrect & they approached the
>> Monmouthpedia orgnaisers?
>> * If they did not approach WMUK, did they think, or were they led to think
>> they were approaching WMUK by whoever they did approach?
>> * Has Roger used his position as WMUK director to obtain this Gibraltar
>> contract?
>>
>> I'm AGF that nothing untoward has happened here, but I suggest a statement
>> be issued with some urgency to clear these matters up. Or it may well
>> backfire on the charity.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> On 18 September 2012 08:55, Jon Davies <jon.davies@wikimedia.org.uk>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Indeed - I think it is even mentioned in one of our many governance
>>> documents.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 18 September 2012 08:52, Gordon Joly <gordon.joly@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Whilst there may be no precise misdemeanor, can we assume that our
>>>> charity (Wikimedia UK) follows and applies the Nolan Principles to all
>>>> Trustees?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/parlment/nolan/nolan.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gordo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jon Davies - Chief Executive Wikimedia UK. Mobile (0044) 7803 505 169
>>> tweet @jonatreesdavies
>>>
>>> Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
>>> Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
>>> Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
>>> United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
>>> movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
>>> operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
>>>
>>> Telephone (0044) 207 065 0990.
>>>
>>> Visit http://www.wikimedia.org.uk/ and @wikimediauk
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

--

Doug Weller
http://www.ramtops.co.uk

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--
Roger Bamkin
Victuallers Ltd

01332 702993
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