Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All, I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a behaviour. While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all.

As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your mail. Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say, Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for on having supported Bodhisattwa.

Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning with no so proper tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the community members in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.

At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your voice but maintain friendly spirt.

and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on this.

Hello Bodhisattwa, The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" . Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have. I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed, subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this. I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and allegations. I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia India pays any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I am not EC) Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you. Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them together. This would otherwise lead to spamming. Abhinav On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Folks, As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread), *in a separate thread*. I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be representative of the entire movement in India. *Please* don't respond with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some poor governance or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it, apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would appreciate you for doing the right thing. If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can, and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be welcomed by the community on this mailing list. I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another, but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread, and let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and insinuations. Warmly, Asaf [1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies for our movement? it is here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public... On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 3:01 PM Abhinav srivastava &lt;abhinav619(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Why doesn’t my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like three years. On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00 AM, Asaf Bartov &lt;abartov(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Hi Asaf, Wikimedia India community members and CIS A2K Team, I am sorry for intervening in this whole discussion but I feel the discussion is deviating from the primary concern as we have received another mail where a number of concerns have been raised in response to the primary issue raised by Bodhi. My subscription was faulty and thanks to Sailesh who fixed it and I got a digest of emails. From what I've learned through the emails, Wikimedia India representatives are usually sent to attend the annual wiki gatherings like Wikimedia Conference and this time it was Wikimania. I am sorry to state that we (community) have never been approached by anyone from the Chapter to discuss issues, events, Training or to offer some assistance. We have only one point of contact for all our issues and plans and that is CIS A2K Team. When Wikimedia India Chapter is not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the movement ahead, then what is the purpose of their representatives attending these events, what do they have to impart to other wikimedians there? and how are they using the learnings in progressing the movement? Can someone please clearly address these questions and then we can discuss the other issues raised in the different thread. Regards, Manavpreet Kaur On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 3:42 PM, Amritasya Putra < iamamritasyaputra(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern. I also described another possible scenario. A. On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava" &lt;abhinav619(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Hello Asaf, In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns, the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out, the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up. Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate that. I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and we wish to learn more of this. In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court, you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the community to decide. Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list. At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly. To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal query, please. Abhinav On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:33 AM Asaf Bartov &lt;abartov(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Hi Tito, Thanks for the clarification from the part of CIS-A2K. It is clear now from your reply, that the WMIN president sent a request to CIS-A2K to support for his participation in Wikimania and CIS-A2K responded positively as this was an official request from an affiliate representative, I guess. By the way, did he mention the cause of his participation as an WMIN representative in the same conference, where already 2 EC members got full scholarship to attend. Like my first mail, I am still having the question, what extra value was targeted to be added in the conference by WMIN president, which could not have been achieved by the 2 EC members and and thus came the dire necessity to send another member with donation money? Thanks, Bodhisattwa On Fri, 3 Aug 2018, 12:42 Tito Dutta, &lt;trulytito(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly. Regards. On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava &lt;abhinav619(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All, > > > > I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having > expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from > the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The > mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly > in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a > behaviour. > > While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, > debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been > better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value > judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a > better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all. > > As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently > inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. > Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing > list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the > mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your > mail. > > Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, > I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the > community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say, > Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from > their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of > its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies > started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we > requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee > members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and > others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been > fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for > on having supported Bodhisattwa. > > Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there > happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning > you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in > supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who > questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as > a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be > in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning > with no so proper tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the > community members in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites. > > > > Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other > thread. This issue requires much more gravity. A lot of things have been > happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns > one person. Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates > conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia > Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the > conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what > was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my > understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like > Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for > transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report > etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on > Meta about this meeting? > > > > To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency > has been happening so I though of voicing my views. I would advise you to > keep informing the community of your activities, I cannot find any monthly > work reports which used to be shared earlier. In fact, the meta page does > not even provide a 2018 section for reports. Please look into this, we are > in the 8th month of the year. My piece of advice would be let someone > volunteer and create your reports, if you do not have staff at the moment. > Just like Wikimedia India were reports are created by volunteers. > > > > At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your > voice but maintain friendly spirt. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 12:26 AM Satdeep Gill &lt;satdeepgill(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this >> on Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions. >> >> I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to >> Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also >> some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania. >> >> All this can help ensure trust of the wider Wikimedia community in our >> processes and decisions. >> >> I do want to hear why was it deemed necessary for the WMIN President to >> be present at that informal meetup during Wikimania. >> >> I do know that for some other Chapters whose chairperson's were not >> attending Wikimania, some editor Board/EC member attended the meetup on >> their behalf. >> >> I expect to hear more about this. >> >> Regards >> Satdeep Gill >> >> Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation >> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers> >> Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians >> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_Wikimedians> >> Member, Affiliations Committee >> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee> >> Member, Language Committee >> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee> >> >> >> On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 17:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal < >> bodhisattwa.rgkmc(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape >>> Town >>> without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why >>> was >>> he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India >>> who >>> were in the waiting list. >>> >>> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The >>> meeting >>> doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already >>> there >>> were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting. >>> >>> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Bodhisattwa >>>

sorry, few corrections, Hi Abhinav, 1) I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid, which still remains unanswered. 5) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it will remain between us. 6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it.. Thanks, On 2 August 2018 at 14:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal &lt;bodhisattwa.rgkmc(a)gmail.com > Hi Abhinav, > > 1) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to > see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki > where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself > to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it > will remain between us. I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone > appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I > question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened > and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid, > which still remains unanswered. > > 6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were > true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have > first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not > revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of > that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it.. > > Thanks, > > On 2 August 2018 at 12:06, Amritasya Putra &lt;iamamritasyaputra(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: > >> My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly. >> >> Regards. >> >> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava &lt;abhinav619(a)gmail.com&gt; >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having >>> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from >>> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The >>> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly >>> in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a >>> behaviour. >>> >>> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, >>> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been >>> better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value >>> judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a >>> better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all. >>> >>> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently >>> inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. >>> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing >>> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the >>> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your >>> mail. >>> >>> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia >>> India, I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of >>> the community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally >>> say, Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid >>> from their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one >>> of its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies >>> started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we >>> requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee >>> members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and >>> others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been >>> fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for >>> on having supported Bodhisattwa. >>> >>> Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there >>> happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning >>> you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in >>> supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who >>> questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as >>> a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be >>> in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning >>> with no so proper tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the >>> community members in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites. >>> >>> >>> >>> Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other >>> thread. This issue requires much more gravity. A lot of things have been >>> happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns >>> one person. Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates >>> conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia >>> Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the >>> conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what >>> was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my >>> understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like >>> Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for >>> transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report >>> etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on >>> Meta about this meeting? >>> >>> >>> >>> To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency >>> has been happening so I though of voicing my views. I would advise you to >>> keep informing the community of your activities, I cannot find any monthly >>> work reports which used to be shared earlier. In fact, the meta page does >>> not even provide a 2018 section for reports. Please look into this, we are >>> in the 8th month of the year. My piece of advice would be let someone >>> volunteer and create your reports, if you do not have staff at the moment. >>> Just like Wikimedia India were reports are created by volunteers. >>> >>> >>> >>> At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your >>> voice but maintain friendly spirt. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 12:26 AM Satdeep Gill &lt;satdeepgill(a)gmail.com&gt; >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this >>>> on Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions. >>>> >>>> I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to >>>> Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also >>>> some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania. >>>> >>>> All this can help ensure trust of the wider Wikimedia community in our >>>> processes and decisions. >>>> >>>> I do want to hear why was it deemed necessary for the WMIN President >>>> to be present at that informal meetup during Wikimania. >>>> >>>> I do know that for some other Chapters whose chairperson's were not >>>> attending Wikimania, some editor Board/EC member attended the meetup on >>>> their behalf. >>>> >>>> I expect to hear more about this. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Satdeep Gill >>>> >>>> Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation >>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers> >>>> Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians >>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_Wikimedians> >>>> Member, Affiliations Committee >>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee> >>>> Member, Language Committee >>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 17:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal < >>>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape >>>>> Town >>>>> without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is >>>>> why was >>>>> he sent to the conference depriving other community members from >>>>> India who >>>>> were in the waiting list. >>>>> >>>>> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The >>>>> meeting >>>>> doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already >>>>> there >>>>> were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting. >>>>> >>>>> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Bodhisattwa >>>>>