Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

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Pradeep Mohandas

18 Apr 2014 18 Apr '14

5:05 a.m.

The on-going conversation at the Grants application page of CIS-A2K has also seen some comments made about the Wikimedia India Chapter. You can read the conversation on-wiki - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/…. I would encourage the community members who have thus far engaged CIS-A2K with criticism to also take the time and effort to do the same with the Wikimedia India Chapter. As Asaf points out in the above conversation, the Chapter is a community created resource and I think it is upto the community to decide on the effectiveness of the work done by this organisation. Without community involvement, no matter how passionate the WMIN EC or a few members inside the Chapter are, it will not make any impact. I see no communication from the WMIN EC on their own grant application and their status thereafter. I do believe they were wronged in not getting the funds they requested for. However, I think it would be mature to move on and also to use the interim period to build resources that seek to make WMIN's funding sources independent of WMF and to expand membership. If the WMIN EC would thus like to engage the community, I would suggest that they open a conversation on wiki (preferably, Meta) in what they seek from community members and to try and understand what community members expect from the Chapter. Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter is in the long term interest of the movement in India. Keeping the Chapter accountable is the community's responsibility. However, it is for each community member and not a few to make this decision. Help has been offered to the Chapter from WMF, CIS-A2K and I am sure from the community as well. I would love to see the chapter revitalised and a pragmatic programme evolved around the same. Pradeep Mohandas How Pradeep uses email? - http://goo.gl/6v1I9

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Asaf Bartov

18 Apr 18 Apr

8:33 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

Thanks for this constructive invitation. I look forward to this conversation, and I commit to contribute to it, as invited, from my perspective, once some community members have offered opinions. One point I'd beg to differ on, though, right from the start, is your suggestion that WMIN focus on raising funds independently: This is in response to WMIN not being granted the full amount it has requested via the Annual Plan Grants process[1]. Since funds are available relatively plentifully at the movement level, and since WMF is strategically interested in promoting the mission in India, I would argue a better (and easier!) solution would be to address the likely sources of misalignment between WMIN's expectations and thinking and those of WMF and the FDC[2]. A conversation such as the one you began now is certainly a step in the right direction, and I am optimistic that with open dialogue we can achieve alignment on questions like: * current strengths/resources and weaknesses/gaps * strategy and plans * WMIN's place in the context of other Wikimedia work in India * the role of staff and the terms under which funding for staff would be a good investment These topics have been discussed before, of course, but the fact is alignment was never reached. To achieve it, we'd need to have open conversations (most such conversations had so far have _not_ been open), to put aside bruised egos and strong feelings (justified or unjustified) about past decisions, and to focus with some discipline on the above questions (and others). I look forward to such engagement. Again, I say all this in the context of the question of funding. If such alignment is achieved, WMIN would find it remarkably easy to get funding for its needs, including staff, and would not need to develop the capabilities and to put in the effort required to raise the funds locally, from sources other than the on-wiki fundraiser. I would _like_ to see fundraiser funds get used to fund WMIN. This question is perhaps not the best _first_ question for this conversation; it would probably be better to begin with some vision-sharing, some imagining of where we want to get to. But since you mentioned it as an obvious direction WMIN would need to develop in, I thought I should point out it's not at all obvious, from our perspective. Thanks again for engaging in good faith. Asaf [1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG [2] I do not speak for the Funds Dissemination Committee and was not part of the deliberations or decision on this, though I did deliver a compliance report about past grants as one of the inputs for the committee's deliberations. On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Pradeep Mohandas <prad2609(a)yahoo.com>wrote;wrote:

...

The on-going conversation at the Grants application page of CIS-A2K has also seen some comments made about the Wikimedia India Chapter. You can read the conversation on-wiki - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/… . I would encourage the community members who have thus far engaged CIS-A2K with criticism to also take the time and effort to do the same with the Wikimedia India Chapter. As Asaf points out in the above conversation, the Chapter is a community created resource and I think it is upto the community to decide on the effectiveness of the work done by this organisation. Without community involvement, no matter how passionate the WMIN EC or a few members inside the Chapter are, it will not make any impact. I see no communication from the WMIN EC on their own grant application and their status thereafter. I do believe they were wronged in not getting the funds they requested for. However, I think it would be mature to move on and also to use the interim period to build resources that seek to make WMIN's funding sources independent of WMF and to expand membership. If the WMIN EC would thus like to engage the community, I would suggest that they open a conversation on wiki (preferably, Meta) in what they seek from community members and to try and understand what community members expect from the Chapter. Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter is in the long term interest of the movement in India. Keeping the Chapter accountable is the community's responsibility. However, it is for each community member and not a few to make this decision. Help has been offered to the Chapter from WMF, CIS-A2K and I am sure from the community as well. I would love to see the chapter revitalised and a pragmatic programme evolved around the same. Pradeep Mohandas How Pradeep uses email? - http://goo.gl/6v1I9 _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

-- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org

Gautam John

28 Apr 28 Apr

8:51 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

On 18 April 2014 12:03, Asaf Bartov <abartov(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

This is in response to WMIN not being granted the full amount it has requested via the Annual Plan Grants process[1]. Since funds are available relatively plentifully at the movement level, and since WMF is strategically interested in promoting the mission in India, I would argue a better (and easier!) solution would be to address the likely sources of misalignment between WMIN's expectations and thinking and those of WMF and the FDC[2].

Gerard Meijssen

9:15 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

Hoi, Independence is just that. When you can get money when you focus on certain goals, you will when you do. When you want to go a different route, you may but that is your route and funding for it is your responsibility as well. Given what a chapter is, I would expect that it has ample scope to explore its own territory and seek its own priorities. My question is, when a chapter moves outside of what WMF / FDC is funding, to what extend is it still and does it deserve to be the chapter of the WMF? Thanks, Gerard On 28 April 2014 08:51, Gautam John <gautam(a)akshara.org.in> wrote:

...

On 18 April 2014 12:03, Asaf Bartov <abartov(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

This is in response to WMIN not being granted the full amount it has requested via the Annual Plan Grants process[1]. Since funds are

available

relatively plentifully at the movement level, and since WMF is

strategically

interested in promoting the mission in India, I would argue a better (and easier!) solution would be to address the likely sources of misalignment between WMIN's expectations and thinking and those of WMF and the FDC[2].

In general, are Chapters expected to focus on what the goals of the WMF and FDC are? Or are they free to chart their own course about things that they believe are important to the geographies they serve? And if they don't toe the WMF/FDC policy/strategy line then they don't get money? How does this foster any sort of independence? _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Gautam John

9:17 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

On 28 April 2014 12:45, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Independence is just that. When you can get money when you focus on certain goals, you will when you do. When you want to go a different route, you may but that is your route and funding for it is your responsibility as well.

That's fair enough, Gerard. It was this "One point I'd beg to differ on, though, right from the start, is your suggestion that WMIN focus on raising funds independently:" that I was referring to. Thank you. Best, Gautam ________ http://www.akshara.org.in/

Dhaval S. Vyas

9:29 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

Hi Gerard, I know a chapter in Europe, where probably you come from, which doesn't depend on WMF's grant or funds as it has raised a huge amount on its own. That chapter, WMUK, is still considered WMF chapter if I am not mistaking. Also, the need for WMIN to raise its own funds has arisen because of WMF's FDC's decision to not fund it and fund another private organisation. I hope this helps you to understand what's being discussed. Regards, Dhaval On 28 Apr 2014 08:16, "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 18 April 2014 12:03, Asaf Bartov <abartov(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

This is in response to WMIN not being granted the full amount it has requested via the Annual Plan Grants process[1]. Since funds are

available

relatively plentifully at the movement level, and since WMF is

strategically

interested in promoting the mission in India, I would argue a better

(and

easier!) solution would be to address the likely sources of misalignment between WMIN's expectations and thinking and those of WMF and the

FDC[2]. In general, are Chapters expected to focus on what the goals of the WMF and FDC are? Or are they free to chart their own course about things that they believe are important to the geographies they serve? And if they don't toe the WMF/FDC policy/strategy line then they don't get money? How does this foster any sort of independence? _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Gerard Meijssen

10:07 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

Hoi, I am from the Netherlands and, its chapter is very much depended on WMF money. Fundraising is NOT its strong point.. If you are interested in a chapter that has its own revenue stream look at Poland. I do know that the Indian chapter did not receive the funding it looked for and, personally I dislike the arguments used. However, what I do see is that there is unnecessary rivalry between CIS and the chapter. Unnecessary because they do and should aim for the same goal. Given the size of India, the combined funding is really small and given the size of India there are many, many more opportunities once everything is said and done. The energy that goes in fighting CIS is energy wasted. CIS has a limited mandate in time and when the chapter and CIS find it in themselves to work together it is more than likely that the CIS projects and funding will find a home under the India chapter umbrella. I applaud you for wanting to raise funds that will make up the shortfall because of the limited WMF funding. The point of those projects is to achieve its goals. So define the best goals and projects you can. Find the money and expose the WMF arguments by doing a better job than they do. Thanks, GerardM On 28 April 2014 09:29, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 18 April 2014 12:03, Asaf Bartov <abartov(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

This is in response to WMIN not being granted the full amount it has requested via the Annual Plan Grants process[1]. Since funds are

available

relatively plentifully at the movement level, and since WMF is

strategically

interested in promoting the mission in India, I would argue a better

(and

easier!) solution would be to address the likely sources of

misalignment

between WMIN's expectations and thinking and those of WMF and the

Asaf Bartov

9:17 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 12:29 AM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

This is incorrect. The majority of funds raised by WMUK was raised via the annual wiki-banner-based fundraiser, and is movement funding, granted to WMUK via the FDC process.

...

Also, the need for WMIN to raise its own funds has arisen because of WMF's FDC's decision to not fund it and fund another private organisation.

This is also incorrect. The FDC _did_ recommend to fund WMIN this year, albeit at a much reduced amount[1]. While this is no doubt disappointing to WMIN, it is funding nonetheless, and is at a scale similar to the funding WMIN had received this past year via the Project and Event Grants (PEG) program[2][3]. And the FDC has _not_ funded another organization (yet). It is currently evaluating a proposal by another organization -- CIS -- but whatever it decides regarding this proposal, it is entirely independent of its decisions, present and future, about proposals from WMIN. Crucially, the funding CIS is applying to receive (and has been receiving in the past grant), is _by no means_ at the expense of WMIN, nor vice versa. There is enough money to fund both organizations' work in India, to the degree they propose compelling program plans. This is not a zero-sum game, and money granted to organization A is not at the expense of organization B. While the total "envelope" of funds the FDC has to allocate is finite, it has never been the case so far that organization A was short-changed despite a compelling plan because money has run out due to funding organization B.

...

I hope this helps you to understand what's being discussed.

Actually, these repeated half-truths are no doubt making it more difficult for those reading these discussions to understand. I recognize that you are all volunteers and don't have the time (or inclination) to closely follow the Annual Plan Grants (FDC) process or to double-check your statements about what past practice has been, and I gladly undertake to provide accurate information where corrections are needed. But I would encourage you all to either make more of an effort to get your facts right in advance of making a statement (rather than relying on second-hand accounts), _or_ to favor asking questions to making assertions, to avoid misleading responses such as the one above. (I allege no bad faith here, of course!) Cheers, Asaf [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_portal/FDC_recommendations/2… [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/WM_IN/Program_Grant_Quarter_1_20… [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/WM_IN/Program_Grant_April_Decemb… -- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org

Dhaval S. Vyas

29 Apr 29 Apr

8:43 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

Thank you Asaf for correcting my facts. When I said WMIN was denied funding, It was obvious that I was referring to the large chunk of budget that was denied and didn't mean that "no funding was approved". I am glad to see your reply to Gerald's question that I attempted to answer, which you found objectionable. And thank you for acknowledging my weakness as volunteer, I do not get paid to make edits on wiki and to reply to this email threat unlike other direct or indirect beneficiaries of the WMF money, and hence appreciate your patience in correcting my facts, which ultimately helps me to gain more knowledge. Please bear with my second hand information until my time is paid. Thanks once again, Dhaval On 28 Apr 2014 20:18, "Asaf Bartov" <abartov(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 12:29 AM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas(a)gmail.com> wrote:

This is incorrect. The majority of funds raised by WMUK was raised via the annual wiki-banner-based fundraiser, and is movement funding, granted to WMUK via the FDC process.

Also, the need for WMIN to raise its own funds has arisen because of WMF's FDC's decision to not fund it and fund another private organisation.

I hope this helps you to understand what's being discussed.

Asaf Bartov

28 Apr 28 Apr

9:30 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 11:51 PM, Gautam John <gautam(a)akshara.org.in> wrote:

...

To put it simply: 1. Chapters are free to set their own course and come up with their own strategy, goals, and annual plans. They are thus independent. 2. Chapters that want to avail themselves of _movement funds_ -- a relatively plentiful and relatively accessible source of funding -- do need to propose compelling plans with at least a considerable emphasis on the goals identified as strategic goals for Wikimedia. They are still free to pursue specific programs and interests that are a good match for their context -- regional, organizational, and motivational (i.e. what their own volunteers are most motivated to work on). The balance between definitely-strategic and perhaps-less-strategic-but-making-sense-in-context initiatives needs to be a reasonable one, and to be reasonably argued for, but it can certainly be done. 3. In my earlier comments, I was suggesting that WMIN _not_ forego movement funding, because, in my opinion, its actual goals and its volunteer base _are not_ in fact too divergent from movement goals and WMF's expectations. I asserted that the abiding disagreement between WMF and WMIN is much more around the _how_ than the _what_, and that that disagreement can be surmounted. (I acknowledge, however, that it has so far seen little positive development: despite much investment of time and effort from both sides, and multiple channels (including face to face conversations) attempted, neither side has accepted the other's expectations so far.) I remain interested, as mentioned earlier on this thread, to engage with WMIN on a more constructive note, on a path toward greater credibility and confidence in WMIN from WMF; such a path would need to go through realistic growth planning, demonstrable community engagement and support, and some sustained record of success. In a way, the latest round of discussions with WMIN has resulted in something along those lines, at least in terms of WMIN's current plans and three short-term focuses (I wonder if they were shared with this list -- if not, perhaps the EC would consider doing so). I remain frankly skeptical of WMIN's ability to execute those plans in terms of volunteer engagement (and even EC/board engagement), but I would be _delighted_ to be proven too pessimistic. I am happy to discuss more strategic planning (as distinct from the three short-term focuses) any time, if WMIN's current leadership would show interest. Cheers, Asaf -- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org

Vikram Vincent

29 Apr 29 Apr

6:25 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

Hello Asaf, On 29 April 2014 01:00, Asaf Bartov <abartov(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: <snip>

...

I asserted that the abiding disagreement between WMF and WMIN is much more around the _how_ than the _what_, and that that disagreement can be <snip>

Can you please elaborate a bit more on the disagreement of 'how' Thanks Vikram

Gautam John

8:50 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

On 29 April 2014 01:00, Asaf Bartov <abartov(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

1. Chapters are free to set their own course and come up with their own strategy, goals, and annual plans. They are thus independent. 2. Chapters that want to avail themselves of _movement funds_ -- a relatively plentiful and relatively accessible source of funding -- do need to propose compelling plans with at least a considerable emphasis on the goals identified as strategic goals for Wikimedia.

Thank you, Asaf. I now understand how this works. So long as a Chapter is willing to further the WMF's larger strategic vision, they can get access to WMF funds - assuming, of course, they have a plan and the proven capability of delivering that. It's this latter bit that the WMF/FDC has raised questions about? Best, Gautam ________ http://www.akshara.org.in/ They are still free to

...

pursue specific programs and interests that are a good match for their context -- regional, organizational, and motivational (i.e. what their own volunteers are most motivated to work on). The balance between definitely-strategic and perhaps-less-strategic-but-making-sense-in-context initiatives needs to be a reasonable one, and to be reasonably argued for, but it can certainly be done. 3. In my earlier comments, I was suggesting that WMIN _not_ forego movement funding, because, in my opinion, its actual goals and its volunteer base _are not_ in fact too divergent from movement goals and WMF's expectations. I asserted that the abiding disagreement between WMF and WMIN is much more around the _how_ than the _what_, and that that disagreement can be surmounted. (I acknowledge, however, that it has so far seen little positive development: despite much investment of time and effort from both sides, and multiple channels (including face to face conversations) attempted, neither side has accepted the other's expectations so far.) I remain interested, as mentioned earlier on this thread, to engage with WMIN on a more constructive note, on a path toward greater credibility and confidence in WMIN from WMF; such a path would need to go through realistic growth planning, demonstrable community engagement and support, and some sustained record of success. In a way, the latest round of discussions with WMIN has resulted in something along those lines, at least in terms of WMIN's current plans and three short-term focuses (I wonder if they were shared with this list -- if not, perhaps the EC would consider doing so). I remain frankly skeptical of WMIN's ability to execute those plans in terms of volunteer engagement (and even EC/board engagement), but I would be _delighted_ to be proven too pessimistic. I am happy to discuss more strategic planning (as distinct from the three short-term focuses) any time, if WMIN's current leadership would show interest. Cheers, Asaf -- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org

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Asaf Bartov
Dhaval S. Vyas
Gautam John
Gerard Meijssen
Pradeep Mohandas
Vikram Vincent