Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Support for our communities across India

I made a mistake, in that I had forgotten this thread was started not by a Chapter member but by some one else, so I withdraw my remark about the title of the thread and apologize to Chris for the remark. On Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 7:11 PM Abhinav srivastava &lt;abhinav619(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Dear Ashwin Sir, > > Our only point is if there are a set of complaints then put them in > Public domain. Let the community read and review it for themselves. We > never intend to say we have been subject of injustice. All we have been > saying abide to 'Transparency'. Community is good enough to read and > understand it for themselves. Similar to Chapter not been registered there > are many more claims but we are never asking anyone to buy our opinion. > Again, we are only asking to come transparent. > > if you believe our Reports are not "zero-budget", then we are open to > any kind of audit and investigation. Community can decide and let us know. > You yourself would also be welcome to audit. > > This mail thread is not for CIS attribution grabbing or WMIN > President. I have asked CIS to release information on attribution grabbing > in public domain on which CIS Director has responded they are comfortable > with it and on Wikimania 2018, Chapter has its inability to answer on Why > the next person in waiting was not awarded the scholarship. It was a CIS > grant and Chapter has already said that they would make sure to engage with > the community from future, on their own and not be dependent on the > grantee. > > I cannot reply to anything written in bad-faith. However, if you > believe we have been unethical I WISH TO OFFER AN APOLOGY unconditionally. > > I am afraid I can do anything else for you, but to say, you dissent > voice is also welcome under WMIN's free speech objectives. > > Abhinav > > > On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 at 18:51, Ashwin Baindur &lt;ashwin.baindur(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: > >> The AffCom has a number of complaints against the Chapter. The >> implication is that the EC has been intentionally or unintentionally remiss >> in meeting some requirements specified by them. >> >> EC is trying to fixate the topic under public attention as an >> injustice on the Chapter solely due to its inability to fundraise and >> refusal to take I to account the "zero budget" activities. >> >> What EC is doing is attempting to get the India community to overlook >> its lack of communication, unethical behaviour, lack of openness of the EC >> as if that doesn't matter. There is absolutely no mention on the group as >> to how the EC should mend it's ways and what is the way out of this >> situation. >> >> I for one, am quite unhappy over this situation. The EC member in >> charge of communication who was voluble about the CIS claiming credit for >> an event still hasn't spoken about why the Head of the EC hasn't given a >> reasonable and valid explanation to all the queries on the mailing list >> raised about the head of EC and his association with South African >> Wikimania. >> >> This thread has also been titled "Support for our communities across >> India" which is a falsehood. What is being shamelessly solicited is support >> for Chapter in it's present troubles, not support for our communities. >> >> Are we expected to rally around the chapter just because it is >> "Indian"? I think not. >> >> Morals, behaviour, right and wrong do not change and cannot be done >> away with just because the perpetrators are Indian. >> >> It is the demonstrated lack of ethics and Wikipedia culture that >> worries me, not the fact that Chapter can't raise funds, nor the fact that >> it will be derecognised by AffCom till it meets the various conditions. >> >> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 2:45 PM Abhinav srivastava < >> abhinav619(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> >>> Dear Ashwin Sir, >>> >>> With all due respect you are deviating from the topic. In my >>> different capacities with different affiliates, I have been bestowed with >>> the responsibility for communications. Please understand EC is >>> *collectively* responsible to its members, your statement is undermining >>> its office. >>> >>> If you are concerned about other EC members not active, I would >>> recommend you to check the reports < >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Reports/Wikimedia_India#…gt;. >>> All have some contribution or the other. >>> >>> Now, I recommend you not to deviate form the principal issue. >>> Funding is not the only issue, earlier Foundation was mentioning about >>> Chapter not being a registered organisation and subsequent to that much >>> more which is not authentic < >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_India#Affiliations_Committee… >>> >. >>> >>> Please don't punish me by putting such statements, I am involved in >>> several User Groups and could have easily put some hat on. >>> >>> Abhinav >>> >>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 at 14:17, Ashwin Baindur < >>> ashwin.baindur(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>> >>>> Is the funding issue the only issue that is the problem? It appears >>>> that there are other issues as well. The EC members except for Abhinav, who >>>> is a recent inductee, are silent. They need to speak up to give their view >>>> on all the issues concerned, especially as they were in the EC during the >>>> period of non-compliance. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 7:51 AM Subhashish Panigrahi < >>>> psubhashish(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> I feel that there is a lot of negativity which comes from some >>>>> genuine frustrations but also impulsive action. As the situation is fairly >>>>> complex, it would be useful to stick to the facts only. A lot of new >>>>> subscribers to this list who might not have context will simply be affected >>>>> adversely if this continues. My note below is not to undermine the efforts >>>>> or genuine interests of anyone but to share some clarity around compliance >>>>> based on some similar experiences. >>>>> >>>>> When Anirudh’s response gives a good sense of FCRA, I just wanted >>>>> to reiterate the fact that receiving FCRA approval has a 50:50 chance and >>>>> it is a three-year long process. Clean records, full-time staff and a long >>>>> list high-impact activities can still lead to a decline if one doesn’t have >>>>> the right kind of connections. However, an NGO can apply for a prior >>>>> permission for a one time foreign funding for a standalone activity and the >>>>> chances of receiving that funding is higher as compared to a regular FCRA >>>>> approval. Coming from a donor’s perspective as I was dealing with the same >>>>> issue of funding Indian affiliates for an organization that I worked for, I >>>>> believe, FCRA should not be compliance criterion for any Indian NGO. Many >>>>> NGOs that have a much longer history and have done a lot of paid work (and >>>>> hence in large volumes) with bigger teams (and especially lawyers on the >>>>> payroll) have failed to acquire FCRA just because of their activities and >>>>> publications that might have openly criticized a government. >>>>> >>>>> Furthermore, a mission-aligned NGO with FCRA approval can always >>>>> help another smaller NGO as a fiscal sponsor till the time the latter >>>>> builds a portfolio with some local grants. This has to be done very >>>>> carefully so that the funding doesn’t look like a circumvention of FCRA >>>>> meaning that the entire activities will need to be organized/co-organized >>>>> by the fiscal sponsor. In real terms, no matter who is involved in the >>>>> activity, all the work, vendor payments, and even the branding must include >>>>> the fiscal sponsor. It becomes the said fiscal sponsor’s activity funded by >>>>> a foreign donor and supported by volunteers or paid contractors from other >>>>> collectives/NGOs. Considering the hardship (or more of chances of a >>>>> ballgame) this is probably a model a donor organization like WMF can >>>>> explore so that individuals or collectives don’t have to pay taxes while >>>>> receiving any funding. This arrangement might have a compliance cost factor >>>>> and availability of staff as the fiscal sponsor has to pay its staff and >>>>> should have the bandwidth to manage the additional work. >>>>> >>>>> Another model that IEEE and many others have explored is allowing >>>>> nonprofit (and even for-profit companies) to become the grantee. I’m not >>>>> very sure of the tax exemption part but I believe that a for-profit company >>>>> can only receive investments (and not grants) and must pay tax. That could >>>>> be an extra expense but it’s much safer. The actual work must be reported >>>>> as a work by this company just like the previous situation. IMHO foreign >>>>> nonprofit donors should definitely have the flexibility (that the grantee >>>>> profile can range from a not-for-profit society or trust or company to a >>>>> for-profit company) for their Indian grantees because it’s risky to operate >>>>> as an NGO in India since the last few years and manage to get FCRA approval >>>>> at the same time while doing good work. When Wikipedia is all about open >>>>> knowledge sharing in multiple languages, issues related map/border can work >>>>> against a grantee and the law enforcement agencies can go behind them. >>>>> >>>>> My request to WMF and AffCom would be to reconsider WMIN’s >>>>> situation with the lens of FCRA-related compliance issues because FCRA as a >>>>> compliance factor could jeopardize any smaller Indian NGO. >>>>> >>>>> Subhashish >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 20, 2019, at 2:36 AM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < >>>>> sudhanwa.com(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> I have replied on the thread on meta. Copying that content here >>>>> for reference: >>>>> Anirudh has already mentioned most of the points I also wanted to >>>>> say. (Check here: >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2019-July/014215.html) >>>>> I will add a few more things here. WMF is very very keen on all >>>>> kinds of legal compliance. The recent example is the "Germany court order". >>>>> Surprisingly, possibly for the first time in Wikipedia history, all the >>>>> relevent content was WIPED out from Wikipedia within a day of the court >>>>> order where only one person was affected by the content. Compared to that, >>>>> here in India, FCRA issue is affecting thousands of organisations in a >>>>> serious way and AFFCOM is still not able to understand the FCRA compliance >>>>> issue. (Maybe, compared to Indian languages, German language is better >>>>> understood by concerned people!!)By the way, What was the support >>>>> given by WMF/AFFCOM to WMIN in the FCRA matters? Have they provided any >>>>> consultant or legal help to WMIN. Or even some high level contacts in the >>>>> concerned Government office to put up our case further.It will >>>>> also be interesting to know if by any chance, CIS looses FCRA, (I sincerely >>>>> wish that does not happen anytime) AFFCOM/WMF will remove their >>>>> affiliation? Read the WMF news article here: >>>>> https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2019/04/11/a-german-court-forced-us-to… Indian >>>>> Wikipedian community is very very keen on expenditure, especially wherever >>>>> they feel that some wrong expenditure is made (not just by Indian >>>>> organisation but even when WMF money is spent) They become very very >>>>> concerned about it and become very vocal. Mail thread goes on for months >>>>> asking for justificaiton of such expenditure.(eg. check here: >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2018-July/013400.html) >>>>> Hardly anyone from WMF/AFFCOM comment on it. Compared to that, when India >>>>> chapter is not spending any money and doing all zero budget activities, >>>>> what could be the problem with it for the community or AFFCOM or WMF. >>>>> Actually they should appriciate and should be happy about saving lots of >>>>> money and still doing activities. The closure of India chapter >>>>> topic comes up again and again and some lengthy discussions happen on it. I >>>>> am referring to one such mail thread a few years back and specificaly want >>>>> WMF people to read my comment that time in a reply to Gerard Meijssen. >>>>> Please check it out here: >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2014-September/01156… Now >>>>> that AFFCOM is showing so much concern about the India activities, it will >>>>> be better if they can tell us (the stake holders in this- Indian >>>>> Wikipedians, volunteers, current and past WMIN EC members and general WMIN >>>>> members) the comparision of performance of affiliates in India namely WMIN >>>>> and CIS-A2K. What is the expenditure on various activities, paid staff etc >>>>> etc. And give us a clear understanding of where the real objection is. I >>>>> suppose this should be with reference to the contract between WMF and WMIN. >>>>> I read the contract document again some time back and could hardly see any >>>>> possible serious violation of the contract that AFFCOM is referring to. >>>>> Regards >>>>> -Sudhanwa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 5:13 PM Anirudh S. Bhati < >>>>> anirudhsbh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> For now I am not going to get into other issues, but would like >>>>>> to get clarification on the following: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 6:20 PM Chris Koerner < >>>>>> ckoerner(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wikimedia India was first recognized as a chapter in 2011. In >>>>>>> 2015, it >>>>>>> experienced difficulties meeting chapter agreement obligations. >>>>>>> Working with the Affiliations Committee and the Foundation, the >>>>>>> chapter developed a plan of action and returned to good standing >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> 2017. However, between 2017 and 2019 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *the chapter was unable to secure a license to act as a >>>>>>> fiduciary organization, and is not currently legally registered as a >>>>>>> charity in India to accept funding from the Foundation*. The >>>>>>> Foundation and Affiliations Committee both hope that >>>>>>> this licensing and registration can be secured, and that the >>>>>>> chapter >>>>>>> will again be eligible for recognition. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> AFAIK, the Wikimedia Chapter (Wikimedia India) *is* registered as >>>>>> a charitable society under the Karnataka Societies Registration Act. >>>>>> Therefore, it *is* a fiduciary organization acting in public interest. I >>>>>> would like to hear a clarification on your claims above. >>>>>> >>>>>> Further, my understanding is that the Chapter has been unable to >>>>>> renew/secure its permissions under the Foreign Contribution (Regulation) >>>>>> Act, which prevents it from receiving funds from foreign sources, including >>>>>> the Foundation. This is not a situation unique to Wikimedia India, as more >>>>>> than 20,000 NGOs nationally faced cancellations of their licenses last year >>>>>> due to reasons that have largely to do with politics rather than compliance >>>>>> related issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.firstpost.com/india/fcra-licences-of-20000-ngos-cancelled-act-b… >>>>>> >>>>>> If the inability of Wikimedia india to secure these permissions >>>>>> is one of the primary reasons for de-recognition, as a founding member of >>>>>> Wikimedia India and as someone who is largely an external observer, it >>>>>> appears to me that the Foundation is choosing to punish the chapter for not >>>>>> having the political clout to retain its license. For most of its >>>>>> existence, the Wikimedia Chapter has been a volunteer-run body with limited >>>>>> expertise in public policy. Can you please clarify whether the Foundation >>>>>> has extended support to the Chapter in form of, for example, contracting a >>>>>> government relations specialists to help renew/secure their FCRA license? >>>>>> >>>>>> Looking forward to hearing from you. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yours, >>>>>> Anirudh >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>>>> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> ~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~! >>>>> web: www.sudhanwa.com blog: www.sudhanwa.in >>>>> Twitter: sudhanwa Check on FB, Linkedin for more. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l