I made a mistake, in that I had forgotten this thread was started not by a Chapter member but by some one else, so I withdraw my remark about the title of the thread and apologize to Chris for the remark._______________________________________________On Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 7:11 PM Abhinav srivastava <abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Ashwin Sir,Our only point is if there are a set of complaints then put them in Public domain. Let the community read and review it for themselves. We never intend to say we have been subject of injustice. All we have been saying abide to 'Transparency'. Community is good enough to read and understand it for themselves. Similar to Chapter not been registered there are many more claims but we are never asking anyone to buy our opinion. Again, we are only asking to come transparent.if you believe our Reports are not "zero-budget", then we are open to any kind of audit and investigation. Community can decide and let us know. You yourself would also be welcome to audit.This mail thread is not for CIS attribution grabbing or WMIN President. I have asked CIS to release information on attribution grabbing in public domain on which CIS Director has responded they are comfortable with it and on Wikimania 2018, Chapter has its inability to answer on Why the next person in waiting was not awarded the scholarship. It was a CIS grant and Chapter has already said that they would make sure to engage with the community from future, on their own and not be dependent on the grantee.I cannot reply to anything written in bad-faith. However, if you believe we have been unethical I WISH TO OFFER AN APOLOGY unconditionally.I am afraid I can do anything else for you, but to say, you dissent voice is also welcome under WMIN's free speech objectives.Abhinav_______________________________________________On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 at 18:51, Ashwin Baindur <ashwin.baindur@gmail.com> wrote:The AffCom has a number of complaints against the Chapter. The implication is that the EC has been intentionally or unintentionally remiss in meeting some requirements specified by them.EC is trying to fixate the topic under public attention as an injustice on the Chapter solely due to its inability to fundraise and refusal to take I to account the "zero budget" activities.What EC is doing is attempting to get the India community to overlook its lack of communication, unethical behaviour, lack of openness of the EC as if that doesn't matter. There is absolutely no mention on the group as to how the EC should mend it's ways and what is the way out of this situation.I for one, am quite unhappy over this situation. The EC member in charge of communication who was voluble about the CIS claiming credit for an event still hasn't spoken about why the Head of the EC hasn't given a reasonable and valid explanation to all the queries on the mailing list raised about the head of EC and his association with South African Wikimania.This thread has also been titled "Support for our communities across India" which is a falsehood. What is being shamelessly solicited is support for Chapter in it's present troubles, not support for our communities.Are we expected to rally around the chapter just because it is "Indian"? I think not.Morals, behaviour, right and wrong do not change and cannot be done away with just because the perpetrators are Indian.It is the demonstrated lack of ethics and Wikipedia culture that worries me, not the fact that Chapter can't raise funds, nor the fact that it will be derecognised by AffCom till it meets the various conditions._______________________________________________On Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 2:45 PM Abhinav srivastava <abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Ashwin Sir,With all due respect you are deviating from the topic. In my different capacities with different affiliates, I have been bestowed with the responsibility for communications. Please understand EC is *collectively* responsible to its members, your statement is undermining its office.If you are concerned about other EC members not active, I would recommend you to check the reports <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Reports/Wikimedia_India#Wikimedia_India>. All have some contribution or the other.Now, I recommend you not to deviate form the principal issue. Funding is not the only issue, earlier Foundation was mentioning about Chapter not being a registered organisation and subsequent to that much more which is not authentic <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_India#Affiliations_Committee_Communication>.Please don't punish me by putting such statements, I am involved in several User Groups and could have easily put some hat on.Abhinav_______________________________________________On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 at 14:17, Ashwin Baindur <ashwin.baindur@gmail.com> wrote:Is the funding issue the only issue that is the problem? It appears that there are other issues as well. The EC members except for Abhinav, who is a recent inductee, are silent. They need to speak up to give their view on all the issues concerned, especially as they were in the EC during the period of non-compliance._______________________________________________On Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 7:51 AM Subhashish Panigrahi <psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote:_______________________________________________I feel that there is a lot of negativity which comes from some genuine frustrations but also impulsive action. As the situation is fairly complex, it would be useful to stick to the facts only. A lot of new subscribers to this list who might not have context will simply be affected adversely if this continues. My note below is not to undermine the efforts or genuine interests of anyone but to share some clarity around compliance based on some similar experiences.When Anirudh’s response gives a good sense of FCRA, I just wanted to reiterate the fact that receiving FCRA approval has a 50:50 chance and it is a three-year long process. Clean records, full-time staff and a long list high-impact activities can still lead to a decline if one doesn’t have the right kind of connections. However, an NGO can apply for a prior permission for a one time foreign funding for a standalone activity and the chances of receiving that funding is higher as compared to a regular FCRA approval. Coming from a donor’s perspective as I was dealing with the same issue of funding Indian affiliates for an organization that I worked for, I believe, FCRA should not be compliance criterion for any Indian NGO. Many NGOs that have a much longer history and have done a lot of paid work (and hence in large volumes) with bigger teams (and especially lawyers on the payroll) have failed to acquire FCRA just because of their activities and publications that might have openly criticized a government.Furthermore, a mission-aligned NGO with FCRA approval can always help another smaller NGO as a fiscal sponsor till the time the latter builds a portfolio with some local grants. This has to be done very carefully so that the funding doesn’t look like a circumvention of FCRA meaning that the entire activities will need to be organized/co-organized by the fiscal sponsor. In real terms, no matter who is involved in the activity, all the work, vendor payments, and even the branding must include the fiscal sponsor. It becomes the said fiscal sponsor’s activity funded by a foreign donor and supported by volunteers or paid contractors from other collectives/NGOs. Considering the hardship (or more of chances of a ballgame) this is probably a model a donor organization like WMF can explore so that individuals or collectives don’t have to pay taxes while receiving any funding. This arrangement might have a compliance cost factor and availability of staff as the fiscal sponsor has to pay its staff and should have the bandwidth to manage the additional work.Another model that IEEE and many others have explored is allowing nonprofit (and even for-profit companies) to become the grantee. I’m not very sure of the tax exemption part but I believe that a for-profit company can only receive investments (and not grants) and must pay tax. That could be an extra expense but it’s much safer. The actual work must be reported as a work by this company just like the previous situation. IMHO foreign nonprofit donors should definitely have the flexibility (that the grantee profile can range from a not-for-profit society or trust or company to a for-profit company) for their Indian grantees because it’s risky to operate as an NGO in India since the last few years and manage to get FCRA approval at the same time while doing good work. When Wikipedia is all about open knowledge sharing in multiple languages, issues related map/border can work against a grantee and the law enforcement agencies can go behind them.My request to WMF and AffCom would be to reconsider WMIN’s situation with the lens of FCRA-related compliance issues because FCRA as a compliance factor could jeopardize any smaller Indian NGO.SubhashishHi,I have replied on the thread on meta. Copying that content here for reference:
- Anirudh has already mentioned most of the points I also wanted to say. (Check here: https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2019-July/014215.html) I will add a few more things here.
- WMF is very very keen on all kinds of legal compliance. The recent example is the "Germany court order". Surprisingly, possibly for the first time in Wikipedia history, all the relevent content was WIPED out from Wikipedia within a day of the court order where only one person was affected by the content. Compared to that, here in India, FCRA issue is affecting thousands of organisations in a serious way and AFFCOM is still not able to understand the FCRA compliance issue. (Maybe, compared to Indian languages, German language is better understood by concerned people!!)
- By the way, What was the support given by WMF/AFFCOM to WMIN in the FCRA matters? Have they provided any consultant or legal help to WMIN. Or even some high level contacts in the concerned Government office to put up our case further.
- It will also be interesting to know if by any chance, CIS looses FCRA, (I sincerely wish that does not happen anytime) AFFCOM/WMF will remove their affiliation? Read the WMF news article here: https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2019/04/11/a-german-court-forced-us-to-remove-part-of-a-wikipedia-articles-history-heres-what-that-means/
- Indian Wikipedian community is very very keen on expenditure, especially wherever they feel that some wrong expenditure is made (not just by Indian organisation but even when WMF money is spent) They become very very concerned about it and become very vocal. Mail thread goes on for months asking for justificaiton of such expenditure.(eg. check here: https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2018-July/013400.html) Hardly anyone from WMF/AFFCOM comment on it. Compared to that, when India chapter is not spending any money and doing all zero budget activities, what could be the problem with it for the community or AFFCOM or WMF. Actually they should appriciate and should be happy about saving lots of money and still doing activities.
- The closure of India chapter topic comes up again and again and some lengthy discussions happen on it. I am referring to one such mail thread a few years back and specificaly want WMF people to read my comment that time in a reply to Gerard Meijssen. Please check it out here: https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2014-September/011563.html
- Now that AFFCOM is showing so much concern about the India activities, it will be better if they can tell us (the stake holders in this- Indian Wikipedians, volunteers, current and past WMIN EC members and general WMIN members) the comparision of performance of affiliates in India namely WMIN and CIS-A2K. What is the expenditure on various activities, paid staff etc etc. And give us a clear understanding of where the real objection is. I suppose this should be with reference to the contract between WMF and WMIN. I read the contract document again some time back and could hardly see any possible serious violation of the contract that AFFCOM is referring to.
- -Sudhanwa
Wikimedia India was first recognized as a chapter in 2011. In 2015, it
experienced difficulties meeting chapter agreement obligations.
Working with the Affiliations Committee and the Foundation, the
chapter developed a plan of action and returned to good standing by
2017. However, between 2017 and 2019 the chapter was unable to secure
a license to act as a fiduciary organization, and is not currently
legally registered as a charity in India to accept funding from the
Foundation. The Foundation and Affiliations Committee both hope that
this licensing and registration can be secured, and that the chapter
will again be eligible for recognition.AFAIK, the Wikimedia Chapter (Wikimedia India) *is* registered as a charitable society under the Karnataka Societies Registration Act. Therefore, it *is* a fiduciary organization acting in public interest. I would like to hear a clarification on your claims above.Further, my understanding is that the Chapter has been unable to renew/secure its permissions under the Foreign Contribution (Regulation) Act, which prevents it from receiving funds from foreign sources, including the Foundation. This is not a situation unique to Wikimedia India, as more than 20,000 NGOs nationally faced cancellations of their licenses last year due to reasons that have largely to do with politics rather than compliance related issues.If the inability of Wikimedia india to secure these permissions is one of the primary reasons for de-recognition, as a founding member of Wikimedia India and as someone who is largely an external observer, it appears to me that the Foundation is choosing to punish the chapter for not having the political clout to retain its license. For most of its existence, the Wikimedia Chapter has been a volunteer-run body with limited expertise in public policy. Can you please clarify whether the Foundation has extended support to the Chapter in form of, for example, contracting a government relations specialists to help renew/secure their FCRA license?Looking forward to hearing from you.Yours,Anirudh
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
--
~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!
web: www.sudhanwa.com blog: www.sudhanwa.in
Twitter: sudhanwa Check on FB, Linkedin for more._______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l