On 07/03/2012, Ashwin Baindur <
ashwin.baindur@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tinu, respectfully, your argument for inability to segregate roles does not
> hold water.
>
> In the mean, cold harsh world of legalese, things like demarcation of
> roles, disclosures, incompatibility of holding conflicting appointments,
> having code of ethics are all normal and these instruments in fact are
> found inadequate and there is now clamour for more oversight not less.
>
> We have to have a code of ethics for the WMF employee - they must remain
> true to their salt to the organisation which pays them. While it is nice
> that good people like Shiju are always as helpful as they were as community
> volunteers, the simple fact is that there has been a change of role. We see
> them as paid employees which is a fact. We do not mean that as a derogatory
> term but that is what they chose to be - paid. So volunteer activities must
> only be done in a way that does not conflict with their employer. There is
> a great obligation for them to do this. They cannot and should not act as
> community because it means the setting up of COI with their employer. They
> owe it to their employer. They cannot hunt with the hare and run with the
> hounds all at once.
>
> The chapter has volunteer teams - like communication etc. I'm sure it is
> okay and desirable for Noopur, Shiju etc to be part of them and assuming
> good faith, I'm sure they are not intending any wrong thing. But COI can
> easily arise if one is not painstakingly correct and careful. For that
> reason, I suggest that the WMF employees on any team be demarcated as
> WMF-IP representatives - so that there is a clear-cut understanding of who
> is a volunteer and who is not and those who are not volunteers are expected
> to be suitably circumspect in their participation when policy is sought to
> formed by discussion in the community - that is the price they have to pay
> for choosing a paid job from WMF.
>
> The way I see it, some people say Chapter is independent from WMF but that
> can only happen if their funding is independent. Whoever pays the piper
> chooses the tune. WMF is gracious not to interfere much with Chapter, I
> assume they are not interfering at all, but that is because of their
> goodness or choice. Should WMF become dictatorial, Chapter has to kowtow or
> face the consequences. So like it or not, chapter/WMF are related
> organisations which are in the same field with objectives of their own. COI
> will arise, you cant prevent it, only resolve it in good ways by having
> good policy, good communication and sensible interaction.
>
> We have enough "turbulence" in the system already. Questions like cost
> effectiveness of WMF driven activities as compared to that of volunteer led
> activities are taken as personal attacks by one side and as righteous
> crusades by the other. IEP 2 will soon be open us - heaven forbid! The
> Global South program is just gaining momentum and the amount of attention,
> money, effort being put into India programs is going to increase not
> reduce. The coming about of the Trust is going to complicate issues - I
> cant even think how to handle that time-bomb! At the same time, the demand
> is growing; more editors are volunteering. Each Wikipedia is inflating,
> some explosively, others with bits and spurts,some are sill-born.
>
> In such a backdrop, more prudence and probity are the need of the hour.
> More transparency, not more laissez faire. More care, not more "chalta hai".
>
> We have to make it our business to be above board in whatever we do. Imho
> COI is by far the easiest to solve - there are greater challenges out there
> for us to tackle - things which really matter, like the hundreds of
> thousands of school children waiting for Offline Wikipedia for Indian
> Schools!
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Ashwin Baindur
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
> <
tinucherian@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> And to add
>>
>> "That is why they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their
>> user pages, demarcating this very difference".
>>
>> This is only possible in virtual worlds, while editing Wikipedia or
>> writing mails. Not in real life work !
>>
>> I cannot have one face or voice when I am acting as board member of the
>> chapter and another when I am helping the community. Many of us, live and
>> breathe Wikimedia, making it difficult to separate on which capacity each
>> of our action is.
>>
>> You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
>> Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
>> work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
>> staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?
>>
>> -TC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <
tinucherian@gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
>>> Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
>>> Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
>>> parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.
>>>
>>> IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid
>>> employee of the chapter and also a board member of the chapter as well.
>>>
>>> The bigger problem is we have lots of work to do, very very little hands
>>> and too many arm chair advisers. Period.
>>>
>>> -TC
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Theo10011 <
de10011@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:37 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <
>>>>
tinucherian@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of
>>>>> what his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a
>>>>> foundation staff or contractor even being the board member of the
>>>>> chapter ,
>>>>> less alone any volunteer or member. There are several Wikimedia
>>>>> chapters
>>>>> in the world who has paid and full time staff working for them. The
>>>>> Secretary ( volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full
>>>>> time
>>>>> Contractor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope that clarifies
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what you are talking about above.
>>>>
>>>> The issue with Siebrand is a conflict of interest, as far as I know,
>>>> they should/would have declared it to their members. Laws in several
>>>> countries dictate that board of non-profit can not be paid employees of
>>>> their own or parent organizations. Several chapter board members usually
>>>> resign to take up employee position. It used to be that they had to
>>>> resign
>>>> to take up any position as staff, but contractor is a relatively new
>>>> feature with confusing legality, but there are still individuals who see
>>>> the distinction and resign or declare their conflicts upfront. Board
>>>> members by definition can not be paid employees, this is not my
>>>> distinction
>>>> but a legal one. Something I believe all WIkimedia organizations should
>>>> adhere to.
>>>>
>>>> I believe Ashwin explained it much better than I could. If we can
>>>> demarcate what role someone does something as, it would help a lot. The
>>>> community staff at WMF usually keep 2 accounts to demarcate this
>>>> clearly,
>>>> on wiki.
>>>>
>>>> It might not be "practically separate whether we does something as a
>>>> volunteer...." the distinction is actually quite simple. One that en.wp,
>>>> staff and majority of the community holds- paid vs. non-paid. What one
>>>> does
>>>> as an employee is separate from what one does as an employee. That is
>>>> why
>>>> they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their user pages,
>>>> demarcating this very difference.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Theo
>>>>
>>>> P.S. @achal lol
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>>>>
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>>
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>