Re: [Wikimedia Brasil] [AffCom] Fwd: Wikimedia Brasil

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Tomasz W. Kozłowski

25 Feb 2013 25 Feb '13

1:25 p.m.

On 25 February 2013 11:28, Rodrigo wrote:

...

This http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Planned_chapters, continues with lies, we are waiting for your answers and we didn't make any moves.

First of all, let me mention that calling anything that's posted on that page "a lie" is either an emotional overstatement or an example of not assuming good faith. Seeing that the discussion between Wikimedia Brasil and this Committee has already been quite an emotional one--and this applies to the past Chapters Committee, too, as far as I see--I would have hoped that your communication with us wouldn't contain such allegations. To get to the point, however, I would welcome an explanation of what part of "Incorporated without AffCom approval, against advice. Slowly on-going conversation at Wikimedia_Brasil/AffCom" is not true.

...

If you take longer than two weeks, we predict that we will not able to perform the WLM, which was a activities designed for this year, but we need a government permission to conduct any contest in Brazil.

The process of recognising a Wikimedia group as a chapter takes much more than that; reviewing bylaws, putting a Commitee resolution to a vote, and waiting for an official resolution from the Board of Trustess would take at least about six weeks in a perfect world--and seeing that the one we live in is /not/ perfect, I guess that there is no chance to approve Wikimedia Brasil in two weeks.

...

As the process is not transparent, we do not know what are the questions that you still have, so please, if you have them, do not come into contact with our volunteers individually, and ask the questions on Meta (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Brasil/AffCom) and we will respond as soon as possible.

As far as I see, there is at least one question that I asked on October 9 that still has not received an answer from any of the members of Wikimedia Brasil. Because it concerns the contents of your bylaws versus the reality, I would very much like to see it answered.

...

Also, I want a formal and open statement from AffCom about this assertion: "Incorporated without AffCom approval, against advice"

I, on the other hand, want a formal and open statement from Wikimedia Brasil about this article <http://blogs.estadao.com.br/link/wikimedia-brasil-sera-fundada-amanha/>, and especially the opening sentence: "Nesta sexta-feira, 12, voluntários brasileiros da enciclopédia virtual Wikipédia vão institucionalizar suas atividades e fundar a Wikimedia Brasil." as well as a short overview of what happened between 16:00 and 18:00 on October 12, 2012, during the WikiBrasil conference <https://br.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiBrasil_2012>. It is my belief that letting us know about that would greatly enhance the cooperation between Wikimedia Brasil and this Committee, and would be a huge step in moving forward the recognition of your group as a Wikimedia chapter. PS I am CC-ing both the Affiliations Commitee and Wikimedia Brasil's mailing list to this e-mail for transparency's sake. When replying to this message, please keep both parties in the CC, so we don't lose track of things. Thank you. -- Tomasz W. Kozłowski a.k.a. [[user:odder]]

Show replies by date

Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton

25 Feb 25 Feb

2:50 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimedia Brasil] [AffCom] Fwd: Wikimedia Brasil

Bom, para o povo da WMBR, antes de eu fazer uma carta pública como havia falado, tentei verificar o que estava havendo por emails, antes de fazer uma abertura, já que poderia ser apenas uma questão de falha na comunicação. Eu enviei para o Bence um email, entretanto, pelo visto, ele enviou para Tomasz e ele resolveu abrir. Preferível assim. For AffCom We will respond all questions in Meta, including the article and I expect the same of you about the statement. Just to be clear the question that you make reference is that "I can't see the relation between such an organisation and a *distributed institutional design*." Because, we answer here http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Brasil/AffCom#wmbrorganizationa lot of questions, with no feedbacks. Soo... let's move! On 25 February 2013 09:25, Tomasz W. Kozłowski <odder.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 25 February 2013 11:28, Rodrigo wrote:

This http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Planned_chapters, continues with lies, we are waiting for your answers and we didn't make

any

moves.

If you take longer than two weeks, we predict that we will not able to perform the WLM, which was a activities designed for this year, but we

need

a government permission to conduct any contest in Brazil.

As the process is not transparent, we do not know what are the questions that you still have, so please, if you have them, do not come into

contact

with our volunteers individually, and ask the questions on Meta (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Brasil/AffCom) and we will

respond

as soon as possible.

Also, I want a formal and open statement from AffCom about this

assertion:

"Incorporated without AffCom approval, against advice"

-- Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton rodrigo.argenton(a)gmail.com +55 11 979 718 884

Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton

27 Feb 27 Feb

4:26 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimedia Brasil] [AffCom] Fwd: Wikimedia Brasil

Povão, me ajuda aqui vai: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Brasil/AffCom#Artigo_do_Estad… On 25 February 2013 10:50, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton < rodrigo.argenton(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Bom, para o povo da WMBR, antes de eu fazer uma carta pública como havia falado, tentei verificar o que estava havendo por emails, antes de fazer uma abertura, já que poderia ser apenas uma questão de falha na comunicação. Eu enviei para o Bence um email, entretanto, pelo visto, ele enviou para Tomasz e ele resolveu abrir. Preferível assim. For AffCom We will respond all questions in Meta, including the article and I expect the same of you about the statement. Just to be clear the question that you make reference is that "I can't see the relation between such an organisation and a *distributed institutional design*." Because, we answer here http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Brasil/AffCom#wmbrorganization a lot of questions, with no feedbacks. Soo... let's move! On 25 February 2013 09:25, Tomasz W. Kozłowski <odder.wiki(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

On 25 February 2013 11:28, Rodrigo wrote:

This http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Planned_chapters

continues with lies, we are waiting for your answers and we didn't make

any

moves.

If you take longer than two weeks, we predict that we will not able to perform the WLM, which was a activities designed for this year, but we

need

a government permission to conduct any contest in Brazil.

As the process is not transparent, we do not know what are the questions that you still have, so please, if you have them, do not come into

contact

with our volunteers individually, and ask the questions on Meta (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Brasil/AffCom) and we will

respond

as soon as possible.

Also, I want a formal and open statement from AffCom about this

assertion:

"Incorporated without AffCom approval, against advice"

-- Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton rodrigo.argenton(a)gmail.com +55 11 979 718 884

Alexandre Hannud Abdo

5:03 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimedia Brasil] [AffCom] Fwd: Wikimedia Brasil

On 27-02-2013 00:26, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote:

...

Povão, me ajuda aqui vai: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Brasil/AffCom#Artigo_do_Estad…

Po, vc foi fazer o trabalho dos caras? Tinha que pedir para eles mesmos colocarem as perguntas na página. ... Bem, já foi, respondi lá na talk o q acho das duas perguntas deles, de tão bizarras e óbvias parecem inquérito policial de seriado enlatado. abs. quã N i !

Alexandre Hannud Abdo

4:41 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimedia Brasil] [AffCom] Fwd: Wikimedia Brasil

Ni! Clear posting since there's too much blablabla going on again. Rodrigo sent someone a private email and therefore I ask you to consider that his personal opinion. Since October we have contacted you several times asking whether the answers provided in the communications page we built http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Brasil/AffCom were satisfactory and whether you had any other questions. There has not been a single edit to that page or public reply since. As soon as you provide questions on that page we can provide an answer, if there are any real issues to be clarified that have not already been. The questions you seem to bring in your email, as I understand, are trivial and have been made and answered informally, but if you really feel you need a group statement, I again point you to the link above. Also, this might be interesting to you: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Assembleia01.ogv Just tells us exactly what it is you need to know, and we will provide clear and thorough answers just as we have always done. Godspeed, Solstag

Tomasz W. Kozłowski

10:39 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimedia Brasil] [AffCom] Fwd: Wikimedia Brasil

On 27 February 2013 04:41, Alexandre wrote:

...

There has not been a single edit to that page or public reply since.

Exactly; there have not been any edits even from your side--and just as I pointed out in my previous message, there is at least one question that still awaits an answer; I asked it on October 9, and have never heard back since.

...

As soon as you provide questions on that page we can provide an answer, if there are any real issues to be clarified that have not already been.

For now, let us wait until the questions I asked in my e-mail are answered; these /are/ real issues, and they haven't been clarified yet.

...

The questions you seem to bring in your email, as I understand, are trivial and have been made and answered informally, but if you really feel you need a group stateent, I again point you to the link above.

...

From my point of view, these are hardly trivial matters; quite the

opposite, I would consider a group getting approved without following the usual process--described at <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_chapter_creation_guide>--quite important. As far as I know, this Committee has never been informed about your plans to hold a founding meeting for the Association during that conference; neither was it told about the actions to register the Association that (apparently) followed that meeting. All this came to us as a surprise when we learned about it on the day of the conference.

...

Just tells us exactly what it is you need to know, and we will provide clear and thorough answers just as we have always done.

I was under the impression that my questions were clear enough; if they are not, please let me know and I will try to rephrase them for your convenience. -- Tomasz W. Kozłowski a.k.a. [[user:odder]]

Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton

10:57 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimedia Brasil] [AffCom] Fwd: Wikimedia Brasil

Your question (9 October 2012) https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil%2FAffCom&… Our answer (25 October 2012) https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil%2FAffCom&… And: *"Just so we don't go off-label, can we agree that will be covered in wmbrorganization ? ^=^ --Solstag<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Solstag>( talk <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Solstag>) 10:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC) Sure, feel free to answer this wherever you want. odder<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Odder>( talk <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Odder>) 10:57, 9 October 2012 (UTC)" * And if the answer was not clear, we have not received any feedback saying it was not yet clear. On 27 February 2013 06:39, Tomasz W. Kozłowski <odder.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 27 February 2013 04:41, Alexandre wrote:

There has not been a single edit to that page or public reply since.

As soon as you provide questions on that page we can provide an answer, if there are any real issues to be clarified that have not already been.

For now, let us wait until the questions I asked in my e-mail are answered; these /are/ real issues, and they haven't been clarified yet.

--quite

important. As far as I know, this Committee has never been informed about your plans to hold a founding meeting for the Association during that conference; neither was it told about the actions to register the Association that (apparently) followed that meeting. All this came to us as a surprise when we learned about it on the day of the conference.

Just tells us exactly what it is you need to know, and we will provide clear and thorough answers just as we have always done.

-- Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton rodrigo.argenton(a)gmail.com +55 11 979 718 884

Alexandre Hannud Abdo

5 Mar 5 Mar

9:12 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimedia Brasil] [AffCom] Fwd: Wikimedia Brasil

Ni! Hi Tomasz, everyone, I stand by what Rodrigo stated based on the links he provides us, to which I add this message: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/2012-October/012518.html wherein on October 25 I explicitly called out to you and Maria that all questions had been replied. So please stand with less prejudice towards us and weight your words. Regarding the guide, we find it useful, and yet it is what it is, a guide. The purpose of a persistent committee is to accumulate wisdom and deal with situations that should not be completely standardized, as the Wikimedia Movement has understood is the case with chapter formation. Because of that, we thank you very much for your time, and so let us go ahead to make the best use of yours and ours. There are answers to your latest questions on the wiki, plase check the page and fill it in should there be other ones. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Brasil/AffCom Cheers, ale On 27-02-2013 06:57, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote:

...

Your question (9 October 2012) https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil%2FAffCom&… Our answer (25 October 2012) https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil%2FAffCom&… And: /"Just so we don't go off-label, can we agree that will be covered in *wmbrorganization* ? ^=^ --Solstag <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Solstag> (talk <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Solstag>) 10:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC) Sure, feel free to answer this wherever you want. odder <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Odder> (talk <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Odder>) 10:57, 9 October 2012 (UTC)" / And if the answer was not clear, we have not received any feedback saying it was not yet clear. On 27 February 2013 06:39, Tomasz W. Kozłowski <odder.wiki(a)gmail.com <mailto:odder.wiki@gmail.com>> wrote: On 27 February 2013 <tel:2013> 04:41, Alexandre wrote:

There has not been a single edit to that page or public reply since.

As soon as you provide questions on that page we can provide an

answer,

if there are any real issues to be clarified that have not already

been. For now, let us wait until the questions I asked in my e-mail are answered; these /are/ real issues, and they haven't been clarified yet.

From my point of view, these are hardly trivial matters; quite the opposite, I would consider a group getting approved without following the usual process--described at <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_chapter_creation_guide>--quite important. As far as I know, this Committee has never been informed about your plans to hold a founding meeting for the Association during that conference; neither was it told about the actions to register the Association that (apparently) followed that meeting. All this came to us as a surprise when we learned about it on the day of the conference.

Just tells us exactly what it is you need to know, and we will provide clear and thorough answers just as we have always done.

I was under the impression that my questions were clear enough; if they are not, please let me know and I will try to rephrase them for your convenience. -- Tomasz W. Kozłowski a.k.a. [[user:odder]] _______________________________________________ WikimediaBR-l mailing list WikimediaBR-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:WikimediaBR-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediabr-l -- Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton rodrigo.argenton(a)gmail.com <mailto:rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com> +55 11 979 718 884 _______________________________________________ WikimediaBR-l mailing list WikimediaBR-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediabr-l

Bence Damokos

7:38 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimedia Brasil] [AffCom] Fwd: Wikimedia Brasil

...

Your question (9 October 2012)

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil%2FAffCom&…

Our answer (25 October 2012)

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil%2FAffCom&…

And: /"Just so we don't go off-label, can we agree that will be covered in *wmbrorganization* ? ^=^ --Solstag <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Solstag> (talk <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Solstag>) 10:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC) Sure, feel free to answer this wherever you want. odder <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Odder> (talk <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Odder>) 10:57, 9 October 2012 (UTC)" / And if the answer was not clear, we have not received any feedback saying it was not yet clear. On 27 February 2013 06:39, Tomasz W. Kozłowski <odder.wiki(a)gmail.com <mailto:odder.wiki@gmail.com>> wrote: On 27 February 2013 <tel:2013> 04:41, Alexandre wrote: > There has not been a single edit to that page or public reply

since.

As soon as you provide questions on that page we can provide an

answer,

if there are any real issues to be clarified that have not already

been. For now, let us wait until the questions I asked in my e-mail are answered; these /are/ real issues, and they haven't been clarified yet. > The questions you seem to bring in your email, as I understand, are > trivial and have been made and answered informally, but if you

really

> feel you need a group stateent, I again point you to the link

above.

From my point of view, these are hardly trivial matters; quite the opposite, I would consider a group getting approved without following the usual process--described at <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_chapter_creation_guide --quite important. As far as I know, this Committee has never been informed about your plans to hold a founding meeting for the Association during that conference; neither was it told about the actions to register the Association that (apparently) followed that meeting. All this came to us as a surprise when we learned about it on the day of the conference. > Just tells us exactly what it is you need to know, and we will

provide

clear and thorough answers just as we have always done.

_______________________________________________ Affiliations Committee mailing list AffCom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affcom

Alexandre Hannud Abdo

12 Mar 12 Mar

8:40 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimedia Brasil] [AffCom] Fwd: Wikimedia Brasil

Ni! Hi Bence, Thank you, and don't worry, we understand the circumstances, that's why we haven't bothered you guys all along. About collaboration, as we're all together in this we depend on communicating perspectives, but then that news piece certainly provided the wrong frame and with your reorganization it took quite a long time for that to be brought up and cleared out. That was too bad. But here we are now, back in our saddles =) About that specific recommendation, as I see you guys keep bringing it up, I'd ask you to just consider how it may loose its meaning, even contradict it, when approval as a chapter is not one of the necessary reasons leading a group to register a corporation. And by that I mean that we're a group that moved to form a corporation because it is a collective management tool that some of us encountered concrete, present needs for in their work. We also plan for this corporation to eventually become a recognized chapter, and for that we have been discussing its bylaws with you, and we intend to adapt them should you have recommendations. It's that simple. Thank you for giving us some context and again thank you all for your time as well! Hugs, ale .~´ On 05-03-2013 15:38, Bence Damokos wrote:

...

Hi guys, I just wanted to thank you for your patience. Indeed the situation is that we have lowered our engagement on the issue last Autumn as it was a bit difficult to handle as we perhaps felt that we did not have all the information, our advice was ignored (for example, founding an association without our approval and explicit disapproval is rarely received as a sign of good collaboration on the road towards affiliation) and there were few volunteers on AffCom both willing to engage and having the time to process all the information. Recently we have renewed our membership and are about to do an internal reappraisal of our on-going stance on this application, which will hopefully result in a clearer path and understanding of the next steps. I expect we will be re-reading your current and previous answers and try to figure out whether we see the proposed organization as compatible with the chapter model or one of the other recognized models, and we will proceed to engage you based on that understanding or more likely in search for more information to be able to reach an understanding. I recognize that this has been very frustrating for you and I hope we can have a more fruitful relationship going forward. Please give us a bit more time until the renewed committee gets up to speed on this application with all its history. Again, I thank you for your patience and all your work in advancing our mission, Best regards, Bence AffCom On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 9:12 AM, Alexandre Hannud Abdo <abdo(a)member.fsf.org <mailto:abdo@member.fsf.org>> wrote: Ni! Hi Tomasz, everyone, I stand by what Rodrigo stated based on the links he provides us, to which I add this message: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/2012-October/012518.html wherein on October 25 I explicitly called out to you and Maria that all questions had been replied. So please stand with less prejudice towards us and weight your words. Regarding the guide, we find it useful, and yet it is what it is, a guide. The purpose of a persistent committee is to accumulate wisdom and deal with situations that should not be completely standardized, as the Wikimedia Movement has understood is the case with chapter formation. Because of that, we thank you very much for your time, and so let us go ahead to make the best use of yours and ours. There are answers to your latest questions on the wiki, plase check the page and fill it in should there be other ones. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Brasil/AffCom Cheers, ale On 27-02-2013 <tel:27-02-2013> 06:57, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote:

Your question (9 October 2012)

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil%2FAffCom&…

Our answer (25 October 2012)

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil%2FAffCom&…

October 2012

(UTC)" / And if the answer was not clear, we have not received any feedback saying it was not yet clear. On 27 February 2013 06:39, Tomasz W. Kozłowski

<odder.wiki(a)gmail.com <mailto:odder.wiki@gmail.com>

<mailto:odder.wiki@gmail.com <mailto:odder.wiki@gmail.com>>> wrote: On 27 February 2013 <tel:2013> 04:41, Alexandre wrote: > There has not been a single edit to that page or public

reply since.

Exactly; there have not been any edits even from your

side--and just

as I pointed out in my previous message, there is at least one question that still awaits an answer; I asked it on October 9, and have never heard back since.

As soon as you provide questions on that page we can provide an

answer, > if there are any real issues to be clarified that have not

already

been. For now, let us wait until the questions I asked in my e-mail are answered; these /are/ real issues, and they haven't been clarified yet. > The questions you seem to bring in your email, as I

understand, are

> trivial and have been made and answered informally, but if

you really

> feel you need a group stateent, I again point you to the

link above.

From my point of view, these are hardly trivial matters; quite the opposite, I would consider a group getting approved without

following

the usual process--described at

<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_chapter_creation_guide>--quite

important. As far as I know, this Committee has never been informed about

your

plans to hold a founding meeting for the Association during that conference; neither was it told about the actions to register the Association that (apparently) followed that meeting. All this

came to

us as a surprise when we learned about it on the day of the conference. > Just tells us exactly what it is you need to know, and we

will provide

clear and thorough answers just as we have always done.

I was under the impression that my questions were clear enough; if they are not, please let me know and I will try to rephrase

them for

your convenience. -- Tomasz W. Kozłowski a.k.a. [[user:odder]] _______________________________________________ WikimediaBR-l mailing list WikimediaBR-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org

<mailto:WikimediaBR-l@lists.wikimedia.org>

<mailto:WikimediaBR-l@lists.wikimedia.org

<mailto:WikimediaBR-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediabr-l -- Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton rodrigo.argenton(a)gmail.com <mailto:rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com>

<mailto:rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com <mailto:rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com>>

+55 11 979 718 884 <tel:%2B55%2011%20979%20718%20884> _______________________________________________ WikimediaBR-l mailing list WikimediaBR-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org

<mailto:WikimediaBR-l@lists.wikimedia.org>

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediabr-l

_______________________________________________ Affiliations Committee mailing list AffCom(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:AffCom@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affcom _______________________________________________ WikimediaBR-l mailing list WikimediaBR-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediabr-l

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participants (4)

Alexandre Hannud Abdo
Bence Damokos
Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
Tomasz W. Kozłowski