2010/11/28 FastLizard4 <fastlizard4(a)gmail.com>om>:
Here in the U.S., ISPs keep records of who used what
IP address at what
time. So, let's say that I had a dynamic IP address that changed every
day. If I got arrested and the courts ordered my ISP to give them a
list of IP addresses I have used in the last month, they would do so,
complete with the times I used each IP address.
so in russia. i say only about
relative anonymousity, not against
government, but against different people.
At least here in the
U.S., dynamic IPs aren't used for anonymity, but simply because there
aren't enough IPv4 addresses left.
but, maybe, not only for that? maybe,
partially also for
partial/relative anonymousity?
Besides, the aim with keeping IP addresses
confidential is not to be
convenient to people who want access to server logs, but to take
reasonable measures to protect users' privacy. Why should we even take
the risk of putting lists of IP addresses from server logs out in the
public?
maybe i do not understand this. how keeping ips which are part of logs
can be called convenience to people who can see that logs fully? or
you mean some government people who may request the logs? to wikipedia
owners who want to loook at them? in these cases, also i do not say
that not publishing them to all people is convenience to that
government people or owners.
you have mentioned that provider can give logs to government, probably
also wikipedia must give its logs to government, if requested, is not
it?
FastLizard4
has said:
As for open proxies for editing, they are
generally
disallowed from editing.
i had not known about that. i want to check that.
(Other WMF wikis may have
different policies on the matter, but the English Wikipedia's is pretty
common, I believe.)
ah it is wikipedia itself blocks them from editing! then like
no
problem! i had thought that proxies do not allow POST requests :) .
...or ask
their provider to make anonymous ip for them?
Some ISPs here in the U.S., such as AOL, do use anonymizing proxies
normally, but many (including AOL) have agreements with the WMF in which
the ISP will send X-Forwarded-For headers, which contain the original
user's IP address; XFF headers, if present and approved for use by the
WMF, are used instead of the external IP as seen by the servers.
i think, ip from
xff can be used only together with
anonymouse-external-nat ip, because probably ip from xff is only
unique inside providers internal network. and is that xff ip is logged
by web server? i think that not logged. how it is used/saved/shown in
mediawiki? if 2 ips are needed indeed, as ip pair?
And,
as far as I know, in the U.S., requesting an anonymous IP from your ISP
is not a request a user can make.
users cannot request in provider's official
web forum to make dynamic
ip or nat? probably you mean that they cannot
require/demand/claim/request(?) that as their right that is written in
law.
And, besides, what are we going to do? Put up a
banner on top of every
WMF website saying "Hey, we're releasing your IP address information to
people! If you don't like this, go call your ISP to get an anonymous IP
address!" Half the people visiting probably don't even know what an IP
address is, and in this case, not knowing about it doesn't make it any
less dangerous to your privacy.
i do not think that to write "ask for
anonymouse ip from your
provider". may be this way: "your request, ip address, referer, user
agent are published, read more >>".
Huib Laurens
has said:
there is
really no good reason given why people should see al the ip
information for all visitors on a wiki
what about opening ips not of all
wikipedias, but of only several
language subdomains?
But, what exactly would you do with the IP address logs
for a few subdomains, as opposed to the entire Wikimedia farm?
i say this because
probably tatar wikipedia for example mostly used by
people whose provider is in russia and i think probably they are
dynamic or under nat. as opposed to english wikipedia, that is usually
used by almost all usa people, who, as you said, use one ip per
family, and uk, australia, etc, about whose providers and ips i do not
know.
2010/11/28 Domas Mituzas <midom.lists(a)gmail.com>om>:
Hello,
should not web server logs (of requests) be
published?
which intelligence service are you representing?
i am not from "intelligence
service" :) . you mean something like spy?
not, i am not. as i said, i ask this because i think that tatar people
should be managers/adminstrators/controllers of texts they wrote, and
that texts are read mostly by tatar people. if logs are not published,
that mean that they can be read by wikipedia owners, by us government,
but not by tatar people.
there are hourly page view statistics somewhere out
there, so most of data is already out, drilling in more would mean violating privacy.
many sites open their statistics: countries and regions of ips, search
engine query strings. for example, sites on ucoz.ru has that
capability, and other sites that use counter of top.mail.ru ,
liveinternet.ru , and
statcounter.com ,
histats.com etc. does that
hourly statistics have search query strings? i have not seen that of
wikipedia. publishing full/raw logs also is not much violence of
privacy, i think. and wikipedia could say "if you do not want to
publish your ip, then do not use this" but take in account that there
is no problem with hiding ip and referer. and so there is no problem
with anonymous reading. anonymous writing is already generally blocked
by wikipedia itself.
2010/11/28 rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner(a)gmail.com>om>:
what would you like to read out of the logs?
i would read, how much people are reading certain articles, maybe i
would read what pages they browse, if i have analyser that can show
that easily for me. from what search engine requests they come. not
only me can do that then, all people can read that. and users who are
"tracked" also will know that their browsing is published.
and what do you think or can say, knowing what i would read out of the logs?