I¹m fairly new on Wikimedia, and even more so to this mailing list--but I¹m sure you¹ve heard plenty of this before, so I¹ll get right to it.
I was directed to this list to enquire about starting new Wikis in the Shavian alphabet, especially a Wikipedia and maybe Wikinews. I'm not sure this is entirely appropriate for Wikimedia since it will just be English spelled phonemically (or phonetically, if you prefer). But such considerations don't seem to preclude other Wikis, such as Simple English or Tok Pisin (not quite English, I know), so I thought I'd give it a try.
I want to verify before discussing this in mind-numbing detail (putting everyone to sleep) that I am indeed in the right place and that there can perhaps be some consideration for Shavian on Wikimedia. I can assure you that the support is there, and Shavian users can be expected to use and edit Wikis in Shavian when possible.
Regards, Joe
Joe wrote:
I¹m fairly new on Wikimedia, and even more so to this mailing list--but I¹m sure you¹ve heard plenty of this before, so I¹ll get right to it.
I was directed to this list to enquire about starting new Wikis in the Shavian alphabet, especially a Wikipedia and maybe Wikinews.
For those not familiar with Shavian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet
It's a phonetic (well, phonemic ;) alphabet for the English language, developed in response to a contest specified for in George Bernard Shaw's will.
While a very neat thing, it's needless to say not in common use for writing English.
I'm not sure this is entirely appropriate for Wikimedia since it will just be English spelled phonemically (or phonetically, if you prefer).
Since it's not even a language unto itself, and only a small handful of hobbyists use it at all, it's very unlikely that any Wikimedia projects will be established using Shavian writing. You might ask Wikicities -- http://www.wikicities.com/ -- which is where the Toki Pona wiki got moved. (Toki Pona is a hobbyist conlang.)
But such considerations don't seem to preclude other Wikis, such as Simple English or Tok Pisin (not quite English, I know), so I thought I'd give it a try.
Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to this day it's unclear what its intended mission is.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
On 2/11/05 5:50 PM, "Brion Vibber" brion@pobox.com wrote:
For those not familiar with Shavian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet
It's a phonetic (well, phonemic ;) alphabet for the English language, developed in response to a contest specified for in George Bernard Shaw's will.
Thanks for clarifying. I didn't think to mention this earlier. ^_^;
While a very neat thing, it's needless to say not in common use for writing English.
I suppose that depends on how you define "common". There are a number of people currently using it in the shawalphabet Yahoo! Group and on the Ikonboard at shavian.org. I also had a pen pal who I wrote in Shavian (insignificant, yes :), but he seems to have dropped off the face of the Earth.
Since it's not even a language unto itself, and only a small handful of hobbyists use it at all, it's very unlikely that any Wikimedia projects will be established using Shavian writing. You might ask Wikicities -- http://www.wikicities.com/ -- which is where the Toki Pona wiki got moved. (Toki Pona is a hobbyist conlang.)
I had the same concern about how to implement Shavian since it isn't really a language. I've wondered if there's a way to offer a single Wiki in multiple scripts, but this may be the product of an over-imaginative mind. I'll be checking out Wikicities (never been there before) if this still doesn't sound reasonable.
Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to this day it's unclear what its intended mission is.
If the English loanwords in Tok Pisin were spelled the same as their English origins, much of it would be mutually intelligible. Besides the slight difference in grammar and various words from other languages, the biggest difference is in spelling. This isn't meant to be an exact match, though--just an example. I recognize the difference.
I can't say I really understand the purpose of the "Simple English" Wikipedia either. It sounds like a good idea though, perhaps for use by children or ESL students?. There's been talk of merging it with the en: Wikipedia, which could be described more accurately as simply removing it. Perhaps if there were a Shavian Wiki, it would face the same fate.
Regards, Joe
Joe wrote:
On 2/11/05 5:50 PM, "Brion Vibber" brion@pobox.com wrote:
Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to this day it's unclear what its intended mission is.
If the English loanwords in Tok Pisin were spelled the same as their English origins, much of it would be mutually intelligible. Besides the slight difference in grammar and various words from other languages, the biggest difference is in spelling. This isn't meant to be an exact match, though--just an example. I recognize the difference.
I've had a chance to hear native speakers of Tok Pisin. For a native English speaker, it is a really bizzare experience, because you start listening to them speak, and you think you understand about 50%-60% of what they are speaking due to familiar words. Then suddenly as you start listening a bit more you discover that you are completely lost and don't even have a clue as to what is being said. From my own linguistic experience, I would have to say that I understand a native German speaker due to cognates better than I understand a native Tok Pisin speaker.
If you are trying to determine if a language is truly unique enough to justify having it as a seperate language wiki on Wikipedia, Tok Pisin clearly fits the bill with some very different language structures than are commonly found in English, and IMHO qualifies as a seperate language. Certainly as different as between Dutch or German or between Spanish and Portuguese, and perhaps more so.
The only hesitation to creating it as a language Wikipedia is sheer number of participants able to contribute content, and at the moment I'm not volunteering. It does appear, however, that roughly 26 people have already volunteered to add content to the current Tok Pisin Wikipedia and about 60 articles. ( http://tpi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page )
On 2/13/05 9:30 PM, "Robert Scott Horning" robert_horning@netzero.net wrote:
Joe wrote:
If the English loanwords in Tok Pisin were spelled the same as their English origins, much of it would be mutually intelligible. Besides the slight difference in grammar and various words from other languages, the biggest difference is in spelling. This isn't meant to be an exact match, though--just an example. I recognize the difference.
I've had a chance to hear native speakers of Tok Pisin. For a native English speaker, it is a really bizzare experience, because you start listening to them speak, and you think you understand about 50%-60% of what they are speaking due to familiar words. Then suddenly as you start listening a bit more you discover that you are completely lost and don't even have a clue as to what is being said. From my own linguistic experience, I would have to say that I understand a native German speaker due to cognates better than I understand a native Tok Pisin speaker.
I admit, I haven't heard it spoken natively, but I was able to work out most of the grammar after no more than a couple hours of reading. Maybe that's more of a testament to its simplicity than its similarity. I've been working a little on the Tok Pisin Wikipedia under the name WurdBendur (which I also use on en:). It doesn't seem very active, but I assure you that a Shavian Wikipedia would at least match it.
If you are trying to determine if a language is truly unique enough to justify having it as a seperate language wiki on Wikipedia, Tok Pisin clearly fits the bill with some very different language structures than are commonly found in English, and IMHO qualifies as a seperate language. Certainly as different as between Dutch or German or between Spanish and Portuguese, and perhaps more so.
Probably more, but my real point was not so much about the actual difference as it was about its status as a language. While Tok Pisin is different enough to be a unique language in its own right, it's typically labeled as a pidgin and said to be simply bad English. It doesn't seem to be widely used online, and information about it is scarce. There may be more Shavian users on Wikimedia.
A Shavian Wiki would be even more similar to the English one (exactly the same except for spelling). But I'm wondering if there would be a way to offer Shavian without creating a new Wikipedia. There are converters that could transcribe the English automatically (though not very accurately), which might be integrated into Wikipedia.
Alternatively, phonemic (or phonetic) text could be stored as one Wikipedia and very easily converted by simple substitution between several phonemic alphabets or spelling systems. This could serve a purpose similar to the Simple English Wikipedia, that being to aid people who don't understand written English well (or who have difficulty pronouncing it in the case of a phonemic Wiki).
But if this were possible, it could effectively combine Shavian, Unifon, ITA, IPA, and others in a single Wiki. Are there other Wikis that convert scripts, say between Roman and Cyrillic for example, or has this been considered before?
The only hesitation to creating it as a language Wikipedia is sheer number of participants able to contribute content, and at the moment I'm not volunteering. It does appear, however, that roughly 26 people have already volunteered to add content to the current Tok Pisin Wikipedia and about 60 articles. ( http://tpi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page )
I'm not contesting Tok Pisin, though. I fully support it if people (like myself) want to use and edit it.
Regards, Joe
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