Re: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

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Cetateanu Moldovanu

13 Nov 2008 13 Nov '08

9:06 p.m.

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The argument for this project is that in Transnistria there are people who still use Cyrillic to write their language.

Then please rename mo. to another thing, MO means MOLDOVAN, and in MOLDOVA we write OUR language with LATIN letters. I don't really care what the transnistrian(russian) separatist criminals are doing there. All I want is to NOT name the CYRILLIC garbage with OUR NAME !

...

there are people who still use Cyrillic to write their language. For your information, ISO has recently decided that Moldovan is no longer

considered

...

to be a separate language, it is considered to be Romanian.

That's good, the only thing I don't understand why mo.wikipedia.org is still here. Make the transnistrian language in whatever scripting you want and keep it for transnistrian(russian) separatists. But please leave alone our language name, (I repeat) it's with latin letters. On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com

...

wrote:

> Hoi, > The Moldovan Wikipedia is indeed in Cyrillic. This project has been locked > after a big fight. The argument for this project is that in Transnistria > there are people who still use Cyrillic to write their language. For your > information, ISO has recently decided that Moldovan is no longer considered

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to be a separate language, it is considered to be Romanian.

> Thanks, > GerardM > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu < > cetateanumd(a)gmail.com >

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wrote:

> > > Hi, I'm a citizen of Republic of Moldova and I want to inform you > > that in our country everyone is writing Moldovan language with latin > > letters. > > > > When we were under soviet union occupation, they tryed to russificate us > > and forced to have our language written with cyrilic. > > > > In 1991, after getting the freedom to choose, we choose our language to > be > > written with latin letters, as we did before russians conquest us > (without > > ask the people) and divided from Romania (our mother land). > > > > Thereby, as a free moldovan speaking man, I'm asking you to remove > > mo.wikipedia.org (witch is in cyrillic and is very offensive for us) and > > respect our choice as a independent nation or to make it with latin > > letters. > > > > Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikipedia-l mailing list > > Wikipedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikipedia-l mailing list > Wikipedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l >

Show replies by date

Dan Collins

13 Nov 13 Nov

9:23 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

The argument for this project is that in Transnistria there are people who still use Cyrillic to write their language.

there are people who still use Cyrillic to write their language. For your information, ISO has recently decided that Moldovan is no longer

considered

to be a separate language, it is considered to be Romanian.

wrote:

to be a separate language, it is considered to be Romanian.

> Thanks, > GerardM > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu < > cetateanumd(a)gmail.com >

wrote:

How can people manage to be this grumpy about something this petty. Suggesting that a country is full of criminals simply because they use a different writing system is disgusting trolling, and has no place on this mailing list. -- DCollins/ST47

geni

9:42 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

2008/11/13 Dan Collins <en.wp.st47(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

It isn't as petty as it may appear and it is understandable that people would be somewhat vexed. Transnistria is not widely considered to be a country for a number of reasons. The written language is a Russian invention which I understand was part of a program to rework Moldavia's cultural identity. It is understandable that residents of Moldova would object to it being called Moldovan. Now you might think that since it is only used in Transnistria (there may be a little use in Moldova among certain age groups but I've seen no evidence of this) we could call it Transnistrian however this would clash with the geopolitical objectives of a number of countries such as say the United States of America. To a large extent we can ignore the issue since at the present time we are yet to encounter a native Cyrillic Moldovan writer. But this is not a long term solution and moveing the thing to cy-mo is likely to cause further issues. While eastern european nationalism may seem somewhat petty to those of us who live in countries where out national identity has not been significantly threatened of late that does not mean that we should underestimate it's significance to those who display it. -- geni

Milos Rancic

14 Nov 14 Nov

11:56 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 8:42 PM, geni <geniice(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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2008/11/13 Dan Collins <en.wp.st47(a)gmail.com>om>:

I am sure that others may find other examples, but here are my two: * Serbs and Croats object on usage "Bosnian" as the name of language which is used by Bosniaks. The reason is that Serbs and Croats from Bosnia are also Bosnians (while not Bosniaks). * Greeks object on usage "Macedonia(n)" for Slavic nation located at the part of Ancient Macedon (and their language). The reason is that they feel that they are descendants of Ancient Macedonians. I think that no one has monopoly on words. So, if there are some disambiguations, they should be described and articles about different languages (or other entities) with the same name should be named by using parentheses, like "Moldovan (Transitria)". However, it is true that Moldovan case is more complex because we don't have good enough informations even from Moldova, not to talk about Transnitria.

Nikola Smolenski

13 Nov 13 Nov

10:11 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

On Thursday 13 November 2008 20:06:06 Cetateanu Moldovanu wrote:

...

All I want is to NOT name the CYRILLIC garbage with OUR NAME !

Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.

Thomas Dalton

10:27 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

2008/11/13 Nikola Smolenski <smolensk(a)eunet.yu>yu>:

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On Thursday 13 November 2008 20:06:06 Cetateanu Moldovanu wrote:

All I want is to NOT name the CYRILLIC garbage with OUR NAME !

Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.

While this is an international mailing list, it would be polite to provide translations when replying to something in a language other than that which the conversation has previously been in. I think I have a rough idea what you're saying based on Google's attempts to translate it assuming it's Serbian (it recognises it as Macedonian and can't translate it), and think you may be misinterpreting the comment you are replying to.

Cetateanu Moldovanu

11:13 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

I want to inform you that Transitria is ruled by russian army( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria#Russian_military_presence_in_Tran…) and it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria#Moldovan_schools "insist that public education for ethnic Moldovans in their mother tongue is done using the Soviet-originated Moldovan Cyrillic alphabet" "having restricted the usage of the Latin script <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_script>(the norm) for the Romanian language <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language> to only 6 schools."

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Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.

I'm sorry If I offended you, I just have some strong feelings about russification politics soviet union done to our people, and we feel a great deal of pain each time we see under "Moldovan" name cyrillic letters.. (wikipedia is the only place like this, they are like promoting this..) By leaving mo. domain like this you continue to support and agree to "soviet union" politics they did to us(russification, cultural changes, discrimination).. Really very painful to see this still going until the present days.. I wrote on meta wikimedia, hopefully we will obtain the justice. On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

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2008/11/13 Nikola Smolenski <smolensk(a)eunet.yu>yu>:

On Thursday 13 November 2008 20:06:06 Cetateanu Moldovanu wrote:

All I want is to NOT name the CYRILLIC garbage with OUR NAME !

Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.

Dan Collins

11:47 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

By leaving mo. domain like this you continue to support and agree to "soviet union" politics they did to us(russification, cultural changes, discrimination).. Really very painful to see this still going until the present days..

Really? By hosting a wiki in moldovan that uses the same language, but a different writing style than you happen to prefer, we're supporting russia? What evil communists we are! We should be drawn and quartered. Why are we allowed to live? Quick, sue us! Clamp us in irons! Yes, such idiocy from people who actually believe that is painful. -- DCollins/ST47 Administrator, en.wikipedia.org Channel Operator, irc.freenode.net/#wikipedia Maintainer, Perlwikipedia module

geni

14 Nov 14 Nov

12:17 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

2008/11/13 Dan Collins <en.wp.st47(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

Sigh. I understand that eastern European conflicts are likely a closed book to you. Perhaps fortunate since otherwise we would have had a hard time pretending they didn't exist for the last decade or so. Still there are a number of things that should be considered. There isn't really any such language as Moldovan. At most it is a dialect of Romanian. This is largely uncontroversial in the west but Russia spent about 50 years trying to claim otherwise. The alphabet used to write it is a deeply political and nationalist act. Romanian is written in the Latin script and thus that was the scrip used in Moldova prior to soviet occupation. As part of soviet policy during the cold war an attempt was made to de-Romanianise Moldova and enforce a new national identity on Moldova. While there were various expressions of this the Cyrillic is perhaps one of the most obvious. Anyway as you may know the soviet union feel and the newly independent nations emerged understandably looking to throw off their soviet past. As part of that there was a general rejection of the soviet manufactured Moldovian national identity. This includes the use of Cyrillic text which is now not used outside the breakaway region of Transnistria. The upshot of this is that describing by cyrillic Romanian as Moldavian you are effectively supporting the otherwise discredited soviet version of the Moldavian national identity. Given the conditions under which this was enforced it is understandable that people might be a little upset. -- geni

Platonides

12:43 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

Dan Collins wrote:

...

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Mark Williamson

1:24 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

It would be quite simple. Theoretically, it could be a tab at ro.wiki.......... but politically that seems unlikely to garner approval from ro.wikipedians. Mark 2008/11/13 Platonides <Platonides(a)gmail.com>om>:

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Dan Collins wrote:

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Is Moldovan Cyrillic transliterable to Latin? Then a transliteration module could be used. A closed wiki readable on both scripts wouldn't be too troublesome. OTOH the work needed to make the transliteration module is likely excessive. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Marcus Buck

2:03 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

Mark Williamson hett schreven:

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It would be quite simple. Theoretically, it could be a tab at ro.wiki.......... but politically that seems unlikely to garner approval from ro.wikipedians. Mark

How many percent of the Moldovan or Transnistrian population or how many people in absolute numbers are able to read Cyrillic, but are completely unable to read Latin script? If that number is "non-marginal", we should provide Cyrillic. If it is not allowed to write articles in Cyrillic (so only conversion from Latin to Cyrillic and not the other way round) and if the conversion button is deactivated by default, but if it is possible to activate the "show Cyrillic script" button by a gadget and if there is a little box on the Main Page describing (in Cyrillic) how to activate the gadget, I guess that should be a solution with which the Latin Romanians can live and which should enable all Cyrillic-only users to at least read the Wikipedia. Marcus Buck

Marcus Buck

2:14 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

Marcus Buck hett schreven:

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Mark Williamson hett schreven:

It would be quite simple. Theoretically, it could be a tab at ro.wiki.......... but politically that seems unlikely to garner approval from ro.wikipedians. Mark

Gerard Meijssen

12:29 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

Hoi, if it is a requirement that the mo.wikipedia is to be transliterated and intergrated in the ro.wikipedia, nobody is going to do it. People who read/write the latin script will be of the opinion that the quality is not good enough. The people who read/write cyrillic will gain nothing by doing this, quite the contrary. The fact of the matter is that as long as there is no transliteration to Cyrillic there will be reasonable opposition. Even with transliteration, it can be expected that there will be a bias against people who prefer Cyrillic as they are seen as the enemy. The conflict of the existence of the mo.wikipedia has not gone away. By closing the mo.wikipedia a controversial route has been taken, a route that includes an exit in the re-opening of the mo.wikipedia when native readers/writers ask for this. Thanks, GerardM On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 1:14 AM, Marcus Buck <me(a)marcusbuck.org> wrote:

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Marcus Buck hett schreven:

Mark Williamson hett schreven:

It would be quite simple. Theoretically, it could be a tab at ro.wiki.......... but politically that seems unlikely to garner approval from ro.wikipedians. Mark

And to make a comment on the original question of this thread: I agree, that the closed wiki under mo.wikipedia.org should be removed. If not already done, all content present in that wiki should be transliterated and integrated into the Romanian Wikipedia and afterwards mo.wikipedia should be deleted completely. Marcus Buck _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Marcus Buck

2:38 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

Perhaps it helps the Latin fraction to try to view it the other way round: Providing Cyrillic does not mean recognition of the Russification policy of the Russian majority in Transnistria, but it is a measure of brotherlyness with the brothers in Transnistria who suffer from a system that does not allow them to learn the preferred Latin script. Making available the Romanian Wikipedia in Cyrillic allows them to gain information and knowledge which is not open to them otherwise. This could help them to emancipate from their yoke. To view Wikipedia articles in both scripts and to compare them could people help to learn Latin script at home, even if they weren't or aren't allowed to learn it in school. (This all under the presumption, that there is a non-marginal number of people who are Cyrillic-only. If there are none, I am against providing Cyrillic) Marcus Buck

Mark Williamson

3:41 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

There is no study of how many people cannot read Latin-alphabet Romanian. However, I suspect that if there are such people, most of them (except maybe elderly?) are fluent in Russian. However, I don't think that's the appropriate way to look at the issue. There is an assumption that Moldavians in Transnistria don't want to write in the Cyrillic alphabet. This is often accompanied by an assumption that Moldavians in Transnistria don't support Transnistrian independence; that they are "enslaved" or that they are oppressed by the Slavs (mostly Ukrainians and Russians). Although there is no polling about the preference of script, several opinion polls by independent Western polling organizations have shown that most ethnic Moldavians in Transnistria support Transnistrian independence. Although there are certainly people in Transnistria who would rather write in Latin, it is naïve to assume that everybody feels that way, because Latin script preference is seen as a political choice in support of integration with the Republic of Moldova or even Romania, which are not widely-held views in Transnistria (most Moldavians who feel this way have left already, it's not a prison state after all). Thousands of children have Cyrillic Moldavian as their medium of schooling, so although they may also be capable in Latin, their "native script" is Cyrillic. We don't approach the issue of, say, Catalan or Basque as "how many people can't speak Spanish or French" because that's not the point. Neither, then, do I think we should approach this from the point of "how many people can't read Latin", but rather "how many people would prefer Cyrillic". I don't have a number for that, but I'm sure it's not insignificant. Mark 2008/11/13 Marcus Buck <me(a)marcusbuck.org>rg>:

...

Mark Williamson hett schreven:

It would be quite simple. Theoretically, it could be a tab at ro.wiki.......... but politically that seems unlikely to garner approval from ro.wikipedians. Mark

Marco Chiesa

10:57 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:43 PM, Platonides <Platonides(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Just to point out: the archives of wikipedia-l are full of endless discussions about mo.wiki, the alphabet it uses and so on. So, nothing new Cruccone

David Gerard

13 Nov 13 Nov

11:54 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

2008/11/13 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.

Cyrillic letters are inherently offensive? You'll get a long way here.

...

I wrote on meta wikimedia, hopefully we will obtain the justice.

Let me know how that works out for you. - d.

Cetateanu Moldovanu

14 Nov 14 Nov

12:09 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

It's the same as having american language in cyrillic and somebody saying that's nothing. American language is the same thing as english. Exactly the same thing is Moldovan language, it is the same as Romanian and mo. should not exist. On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:54 PM, David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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2008/11/13 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd(a)gmail.com>om>:

Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.

I'm sorry If I offended you, I just have some strong feelings about russification politics soviet union done to our people, and we feel a

great

deal of pain each time we see under "Moldovan" name cyrillic letters.. (wikipedia is the only place like this, they are like promoting this..)

Cyrillic letters are inherently offensive? You'll get a long way here.

I wrote on meta wikimedia, hopefully we will obtain the justice.

Let me know how that works out for you. - d. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Dan Rosenthal

12:17 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

Erm, it's not in another language. Nikola wrote an english phrase, using the cyrillic alphabet. "I object to your calling cyrillic "garbage" and I would like an apology". Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи. -Dan On Nov 13, 2008, at 3:27 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

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2008/11/13 Nikola Smolenski <smolensk(a)eunet.yu>yu>:

On Thursday 13 November 2008 20:06:06 Cetateanu Moldovanu wrote:

All I want is to NOT name the CYRILLIC garbage with OUR NAME !

Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.

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19 comments

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participants (13)

Cetateanu Moldovanu
Dan Collins
Dan Rosenthal
David Gerard
geni
Gerard Meijssen
Marco Chiesa
Marcus Buck
Mark Williamson
Milos Rancic
Nikola Smolenski
Platonides
Thomas Dalton