I wish that this user stop putting some [sic] everywhere; http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Developer_payment_poll/results&...
I wish that this user stop putting unnice considerations in comment boxes; http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&targe...
I wish that this user stop putting template for npov or disputed in meta pages; http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Incivility&diff=76056&o...
I wish that this user just let our poor spelling and disastrous grammar in meta page rather than making fun of our english abilities; http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Apology&diff=0&oldid=76...
I wish that this user answers when we suggest her to be a bit more civil with other editors; http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk%3ALysdexia
--------
What does that mean [sic] anyway ?
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 00:38:18 +0100, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
What does that mean [sic] anyway ?
I'm just sending this to you personally, because I don't want to be shown a fool when I misunderstand you and explain something that you already know, but:
[sic] (from the Latin "sic"="that way") is put with misspellings, printing errors etcetera in quotations, to make clear that the misspelling, printing error or such is in the work that is being quoted, and not in the quoting work.
Andre Engels
On Tuesday 09 November 2004 00:38, Anthere wrote:
What does that mean [sic] anyway ?
Sic
"Thus", "just so" — states that the preceding quoted material appears exactly that way in the source, usually despite errors of spelling, grammar, usage, or fact.
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic!
best regards, Marco
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 00:38:18 +0100, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
What does that mean [sic] anyway ?
It's latin for "thus", and is commonly used in English to denote that a grammatical or spelling error is part of a direct quote, and not an error made in the reporting of that quote; or, that an error is intentional, and should not be pointed out or corrected.
e.g. "the letter said 'dear sir/madm [sic], i am..."
See also: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Sic
[Myself, I'd say there's no need for the "pseudo" in that edit summary; although perhaps "irritating petty troll" would fit better]
Rowan Collins a écrit:
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 00:38:18 +0100, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
What does that mean [sic] anyway ?
It's latin for "thus", and is commonly used in English to denote that a grammatical or spelling error is part of a direct quote, and not an error made in the reporting of that quote; or, that an error is intentional, and should not be pointed out or corrected.
e.g. "the letter said 'dear sir/madm [sic], i am..."
See also: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Sic
Hmmmm, okay
[Myself, I'd say there's no need for the "pseudo" in that edit summary; although perhaps "irritating petty troll" would fit better]
Well, I know that this user is doing the same for other people on en. But in the past few days, he has been going through several of the pages I wrote in meta, and I do not appreciate that he put some sic everywhere in what I write. I would revert him, but he also put some corrections at the same time. So if I want to let the correction, I have to go to each sic one by one to remove them.
Now, it may be just trolling, and I should perhaps just shake my head and do nothing, but I consider Dyslexia behavior NOT okay.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Membership_fees&curid=7451&...
I wrote many pages on meta, and ALL these pages contain bad grammar and bad spelling. It is offending me that someone point out to each and every mistake a foreigner make in international page.
Yesterday evening, this user edited several pages, and in one of those I wrote, he commented "Why does a Frenchie write the English texts??"
This is not the first time. This behavior is not acceptable in international pages. If that person want to lose her time correcting my english, fine, but without defacing the text, and without adding some sic everywhere.
I would like to ask that the international community is respected on meta.
I would like that someone talk to her, before I block her.
I am just millimiters of doing so.
On Tuesday 09 November 2004 08:17, Anthere wrote:
I am just millimiters of doing so.
If I was you I would block him/her immediately without much thinking.
Anthere a écrit :
----- Message d'origine ----- De : "Anthere" anthere9@yahoo.com À : foundation-l@wikimedia.org Envoyé : mardi 9 novembre 2004 07:17 Objet : [Foundation-l] Re: Crazy desires
[...]
But in the past few days, he has been going through several of the pages I wrote in meta, and I do not appreciate that he put some sic everywhere in what I write.
[...]
I wrote many pages on meta, and ALL these pages contain bad grammar and bad spelling. It is offending me that someone point out to each and every mistake a foreigner make in international page.
Yesterday evening, this user edited several pages, and in one of those I wrote, he commented "Why does a Frenchie write the English texts??"
This is not the first time. This behavior is not acceptable in international pages. If that person want to lose her time correcting my english, fine, but without defacing the text, and without adding some sic everywhere.
I would like to ask that the international community is respected on meta.
[...]
Voilà jusqu'où mène l'aliénation linguistique : tu auras beau t'efforcer de t'exprimer dans la langue des maîtres, il s'en trouvera toujours parmi les locuteurs de la langue dominante acceptée comme "langue internationale" par les locuteurs des autres langues soumis à cet ordre injuste, pour te faire sentir ton infériorité et t'humilier. Que ça soit la règle du jeu dans les milieux de requins des affaires ou les milieux politiques ou militaro-scientifiques où les enjeux de pouvoir sont considérables, ne devrait pas s'appliquer à cette sphère qu'est l'univers d'une encyclopédie libre.
L'Union Européenne n'en est-elle pas à reserver la plupart de ses emplois aux seuls locuteurs natifs de langue du dollar ("Only mother tongue english") au mépris de l'égalité des langues dans l'Union ? Il serait bon que la planète Vikimédia ait un autre fonctionnement qui ne tienne pas à l'écart toute personne dont l'anglais n'est pas la langue d'expression.
Il est significatif à cet égard que bien que je sois inscrit sur cette liste depuis des mois, je ne participe pas aux débats qui y ont cours, car ça me prend trop de temps et d'énergie de lire les messages en anglais et à plus forte raison d'y répondre. C'est sciemment que je m'exprime ici dans ma langue maternellle et je vous prie, mesdames et messieurs les anglophones, de faire un instant l'effort de comprendre un message dans une langue qui n'est pas votre langue maternelle, ainsi vous percevrez peut-être un peu ce que c'est d'assiter à des débats qui se déroulent systématiquement dans une langue qui vous est étrangère et dans laquelle vous voyez les autres discuter sans faire cas de votre difficulté à y participer. La Fondation Vikimedia devrait, à mon sens, être plus ouverte aux non-anglophones puisqu'elle recouvre un projet multilingue.
A bon entendeur, salut !
Arno Lagrange
Please, translate into english my message anybody who can and who wants. I don't feel me able to do it myself. AL
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I will make a short translation of Arno comment because I feel it holds a lot of truth.
Before doing so, I must say Arno is writing in litterary french, not what I would refer to international french (so it is unlikely google translations will be of much help).
Voilà jusqu'où mène l'aliénation linguistique : tu auras beau t'efforcer de
t'exprimer dans la langue des maîtres, il s'en trouvera toujours
parmi les
locuteurs de la langue dominante acceptée comme "langue
internationale" par
les locuteurs des autres langues soumis à cet ordre injuste, pour te
faire
sentir ton infériorité et t'humilier. Que ça soit la règle du jeu
dans les
milieux de requins des affaires ou les milieux politiques ou militaro-scientifiques où les enjeux de pouvoir sont considérables, ne devrait pas s'appliquer à cette sphère qu'est l'univers d'une
encyclopédie
libre.
Arno points out to the current linguistic situation. Arno mentions that whatever my attempts to talk in the language of our masters, there will always be one person (among those talking the dominant language accepted as international language by all the speakers of other languages submitted to this injust situation) to make me feel lower and to humiliate me. While this is the rule in affairs, business, politics, military, scientific world, where power lever is huge, this should not be so in a free encyclopedia.
L'Union Européenne n'en est-elle pas à reserver la plupart de ses emplois aux seuls locuteurs natifs de langue du dollar ("Only mother tongue english") au mépris de l'égalité des langues dans l'Union ? Il serait bon que la planète Vikimédia ait un autre fonctionnement qui ne tienne pas à l'écart toute personne dont l'anglais n'est pas la langue d'expression.
The European Union is now trying to employ only people with english as mother language and despise other languages. It would be nice that Wikipedia planet does not adopt such a behavior and put aside any person whose english is not good.
Il est significatif à cet égard que bien que je sois inscrit sur
cette liste
depuis des mois, je ne participe pas aux débats qui y ont cours, car
ça me
prend trop de temps et d'énergie de lire les messages en anglais et à
plus
forte raison d'y répondre. C'est sciemment que je m'exprime ici dans ma langue maternellle et je vous prie, mesdames et messieurs les
anglophones,
de faire un instant l'effort de comprendre un message dans une langue qui n'est pas votre langue maternelle, ainsi vous percevrez peut-être un
peu ce
que c'est d'assiter à des débats qui se déroulent systématiquement
dans une
langue qui vous est étrangère et dans laquelle vous voyez les autres discuter sans faire cas de votre difficulté à y participer. La Fondation Vikimedia devrait, à mon sens, être plus ouverte aux non-anglophones puisqu'elle recouvre un projet multilingue.
It is significant that I have been registered to this mailing list for months, and never participate, for it takes me to much time and energy to read the messages and even worse to answer to them. I use my mother language on purpose and hope that all english people here would make an effort to understand a message in a language which is not their mother language. Perhaps then would you perceive how difficult it is to assist to debates in a foreign language without mentionning how difficult it is for you.
The Wikimedia Foundation should be more open to non english people since it is recovering a multilingual project.
A bon entendeur, salut !
Arno Lagrange
Anthere wrote:
It is significant that I have been registered to this mailing list for months, and never participate, for it takes me to much time and energy to read the messages and even worse to answer to them. I use my mother language on purpose and hope that all english people here would make an effort to understand a message in a language which is not their mother language. Perhaps then would you perceive how difficult it is to assist to debates in a foreign language without mentionning how difficult it is for you.
The Wikimedia Foundation should be more open to non english people since it is recovering a multilingual project.
I agree with the sentiment in general, but I don't see how else we could do things.
I speak two languages fluently: English and (modern) Greek. I can post to this list in either. If I posted in Greek, almost nobody would be able to read it, so I don't. If you get people from Greece, Germany, France, Japan, and Spain all into one room, what language can they speak? English is the only language that has a chance of being even partly understood by all those people. It'd be nice if everyone could post in Greek, Japanese, French, Chinese, or German as they wish, but very few people can read all those languages.
-Mark
ArnoLagrange a écrit:
Anthere a écrit :
Voilà jusqu'où mène l'aliénation linguistique : tu auras beau t'efforcer de t'exprimer dans la langue des maîtres, il s'en trouvera toujours parmi les locuteurs de la langue dominante acceptée comme "langue internationale" par les locuteurs des autres langues soumis à cet ordre injuste, pour te faire sentir ton infériorité et t'humilier. Que ça soit la règle du jeu dans les milieux de requins des affaires ou les milieux politiques ou militaro-scientifiques où les enjeux de pouvoir sont considérables, ne devrait pas s'appliquer à cette sphère qu'est l'univers d'une encyclopédie libre.
L'Union Européenne n'en est-elle pas à reserver la plupart de ses emplois aux seuls locuteurs natifs de langue du dollar ("Only mother tongue english") au mépris de l'égalité des langues dans l'Union ? Il serait bon que la planète Vikimédia ait un autre fonctionnement qui ne tienne pas à l'écart toute personne dont l'anglais n'est pas la langue d'expression.
Il est significatif à cet égard que bien que je sois inscrit sur cette liste depuis des mois, je ne participe pas aux débats qui y ont cours, car ça me prend trop de temps et d'énergie de lire les messages en anglais et à plus forte raison d'y répondre. C'est sciemment que je m'exprime ici dans ma langue maternellle et je vous prie, mesdames et messieurs les anglophones, de faire un instant l'effort de comprendre un message dans une langue qui n'est pas votre langue maternelle, ainsi vous percevrez peut-être un peu ce que c'est d'assiter à des débats qui se déroulent systématiquement dans une langue qui vous est étrangère et dans laquelle vous voyez les autres discuter sans faire cas de votre difficulté à y participer. La Fondation Vikimedia devrait, à mon sens, être plus ouverte aux non-anglophones puisqu'elle recouvre un projet multilingue.
A bon entendeur, salut !
Arno Lagrange
Sur le fond, tu as raison. Néanmoins, je signalerais l'effort de la plupart des participants anglophones pour lire notre mauvais anglais et la gentillesse de la plupart a expliquer les "trous" dans notre comprehension.
I agree with Arno basically. However, I think most english participants make a lot of effort to read our bad english and that most are really kind and helpful when words are misunderstood.
J'aimerais que plus de personnes fassent l effort de parler un anglais simple.
I'd like taht more people make the effort to use a simple english.
All board discussions occur in english since Ang and Jimbo do not speak other languages. But Ang uses a lot automatic translations to try to reach out for non english. Still, most board meetings are very tiring to non english people.
Toutes les discussions du board se font en anglais puisque Jimbo et Ang ne parlent pas d autres languages. Mais Ang utilise enormement les systemes de traduction automatiques. La plupart des réunions du board sur irc sont très fatiguantes pour les non anglosaxons.
Nous avons fait bcp d effort de traduction ces derniers mois, grace a Sj, Britty et Danny et des dizaines de traducteurs. Au moins pour les retours et pour informer les gens. Il est vrai cependant qu il est bcp plus difficile de garantir les discussions en plusieurs langues.
We made a lot of efforts in the past months for translation, thanks to Sj, Britty and Danny as well as dozen of translators. At least to inform people. But it is true it is more difficult to garantee multilingual discussions.
I think we made many efforts in that direction though, but comments such as Lysdexia is currently making on meta are just making me very very very angry.
Je pense que nous avons fait bcp d effort, mais des commentaires tels que ceux de Lyxdexia sur meta me rendent proprement furieuse.
--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote: (in part)
I'd like that more people make the effort to use a simple english.
This is a very reasonable request. Like many from the US, I know only one language. It seems that the least people like me can do is write in a simple style.
However, I'm not really sure what sort of sentences give the most trouble to speakers of other languages. How careful do I need to be? Can I offend by being too simple?
I would really appreciate your comments.
-Rich Holton (Rholton)
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Rich Holton a écrit:
--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote: (in part)
I'd like that more people make the effort to use a simple english.
This is a very reasonable request. Like many from the US, I know only one language. It seems that the least people like me can do is write in a simple style.
However, I'm not really sure what sort of sentences give the most trouble to speakers of other languages. How careful do I need to be? Can I offend by being too simple?
I would really appreciate your comments.
-Rich Holton (Rholton)
I wish I really knew...
when the audience is small and not very good in english, write sentences of the type ''subject + verb + complement''.
Avoid familiar language and slang
Sometimes, to be kind, some editors run a comment in google translation, and post only the google translation. Please do not do this; if you post a google translation, always add the original as well (it helps understanding the translation...)
I recommand any of those understanding 2 languages to experiment with automatic translations. Recently, I had to do some nl -> en and I realised I could very well understand some editors while others just cant be understood.
When some one does not understand what you say, rephrase in a different way, with other words. That might sound simple, but some people just keep using similar sentence with similar words and construction. This is not really a language issue, but a communication one.
Can I offend by being too simple?
Tricky... We are all different...
--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
I recommand any of those understanding 2 languages to experiment with automatic translations. Recently, I had to do some nl -> en and I realised I could very well understand some editors while others just cant be understood.
If the original is not grammatically correct, then the automatic translation is very often unintelligible. Humans are much more forgiving than computers.
-- mav
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
On 9 Nov 2004, at 23:20, Rich Holton wrote:
--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote: (in part)
I'd like that more people make the effort to use a simple english.
This is a very reasonable request. Like many from the US, I know only one language. It seems that the least people like me can do is write in a simple style.
However, I'm not really sure what sort of sentences give the most trouble to speakers of other languages. How careful do I need to be? Can I offend by being too simple?
I would really appreciate your comments.
-Rich Holton (Rholton)
As a non-native speaker whose English language proficiency has developed to a level that now exceeds the skillset of quite a few native speakers, I have this to add:
IMHO this is NOT a matter that would be helped by using simple and basic English throughout. A lot of non-native speakers are quite motivated to learn, and especially the more esoteric linguistic quirks can make discovering and using a language just so much more fun. It may be "hard fun" during that stage where you still have to look up words and google for colloquialisms to finally cop on to a double-entendre, but it's well worth it if you're asking me. I would have been quite annoyed if at that learning stage people had tried to talk "foreigner-speak" to me. That said, there's a place for everything and as far as more formal processes (e.g. official announcement emails) are concerned, a certain degree of unambiguity may be called for.
A newspeak-style reductionalism would be counterproductive. What is mandatory however, is that any and all discourse remain sufficiently ''polite'', as well as ''open and accessible'' in terms of a ''readiness to further explain'' more intricate phraseology to the uninitiated.
In short: Using elaborate language is in itself not an issue we should worry about too much. Personal preferences vary; let's not take exception at them -- and if in any doubt at all: ask. HOWEVER: Bad faith, superior airs and an unwillingness to explain things in a non-snobbish way are The Real Problem -- and taunting people on grounds of their limited knowledge of English is clearly beyond the pale.
-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com
--- Jens Ropers ropers@ropersonline.com wrote:
On 9 Nov 2004, at 23:20, Rich Holton wrote:
--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote: (in part)
I'd like that more people make the effort to use a simple english.
This is a very reasonable request. Like many from the US, I know only one language. It seems that the least people like me can do is write in a simple style.
However, I'm not really sure what sort of sentences give the most trouble to speakers of other languages. How careful do I need to be? Can I offend by being too simple?
I would really appreciate your comments.
-Rich Holton (Rholton)
As a non-native speaker whose English language proficiency has developed to a level that now exceeds the skillset of quite a few native speakers, I have this to add:
IMHO this is NOT a matter that would be helped by using simple and basic English throughout. A lot of non-native speakers are quite motivated to learn, and especially the more esoteric linguistic quirks can make discovering and using a language just so much more fun.
Likewise english is a second language for me. French is first, although neglected of late.
What I would like to add is that for non-natives, since english is tiring to read, the quality of the writing is important.
It is also very important that the writing be succinct.
When people ramble on, doing stream-of-consciousness writing because they're pissed, not only does it not add anything constructive to the general discussion, it also makes it harder to find the good text.
I suggest this: write short paragraphs, in correct and collegial english, and focus on only one subject per paragraph.
If you are unable to do that: learn how.
===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan@yahoo.com chris.mahan@gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/
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Anthere wrote:
I would like that someone talk to her, before I block her.
I am just millimiters of doing so.
I saved you the trouble and just did it myself.
Oh, wait, I see you did it too. Good for you. :-)
--Jimbo
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org