Mark W. wrote:
It looks to me like Austin did exactly what he should've so I'm not sure why you're implying he made an incorrect decision. Exactly what did he do wrong in your opinion?
Austin may have done exactly right, but his lack of responsiveness - just as with Arbcom - just as with Cary - made it an issue. As it currently stands the list moderator has blocked three of my posts on different threads, and is also ignoring my direct request to be unblocked.
Here's an idea: Arbcom - respond to case subject's questions and comments and maybe organize some case-centered discussion. Here's an idea: Mailing list creators - respond to requests for new list creation. Here's an idea: Mailing list moderators - respond to requests for clarification about blocks and state blocks openly.
Nathan wrote:
Stevertigo is more interested in the debate, in my opinion, than any particular outcome.
I do love to argue, but this comment is not accurate. The truth is I just like it better when people don't act like dicks. This includes angels, supermodels, Presidents, founders, Arbcom members, foundation bureaucrats, and myself (I'm admittedly feeling a bit forced into the concept).
If you find that people don't take your side even after you have "utterly destroyed them, point by point" then perhaps you should pick a new approach.
I understand that people don't like having their pet concepts taken apart. I mean nothing personal by it - simply separate from your defunct concept, admit cordially that I might have a point, and there will be no issue.
Sources of bullshit will often think that the bull-fighter is evil. "What of it? At least the [bullshit] is disposed of." (after Mencken)
-Stevertigo
Perhaps we do need a dispute resolution mailing list for resolving disputes that involve the mailing lists. It would be better than having the lists themselves filled with complaints.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com said:
Perhaps we do need a dispute resolution mailing list for resolving disputes that involve the mailing lists. It would be better than having the lists themselves filled with complaints.
I'm always open to similarly creative suggestions, and I appreciate your ability turn lemons into lemonade here.
But why would the new list you propose be specific to mailing list disputes only? A mailing list issues only list might get little traffic/attention, though, and maybe that's not a good thing. Could it not be generalized a bit to include even high-level discussion of on-wiki dispute handling?
-Stevertigo
2009/8/8 Stevertjgo owl@spaz.org:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com said:
Perhaps we do need a dispute resolution mailing list for resolving disputes that involve the mailing lists. It would be better than having the lists themselves filled with complaints.
I'm always open to similarly creative suggestions, and I appreciate your ability turn lemons into lemonade here.
But why would the new list you propose be specific to mailing list disputes only? A mailing list issues only list might get little traffic/attention, though, and maybe that's not a good thing. Could it not be generalized a bit to include even high-level discussion of on-wiki dispute handling?
I think those high level discussion can take place either on-wiki or on existing mailing lists without a problem. Discussing specific disputes tends to annoy people on the existing mailing lists and it doesn't make sense to discuss mailing list disputes on-wiki, so the obvious answer seems to be a separate mailing list (or several, divided up by language, I don't know if the non-English lists have a problem needing this solution or not). I think it being a low traffic list would be a good thing - the moderators would all have to be there and a few mailing list regulars would sign up to keep an eye on things and disputes could hopefully be resolved with a minimum of drama.
2009/8/8 Stevertjgo owl@spaz.org:
I think those high level discussion can take place either on-wiki or on existing mailing lists without a problem.
I generally agree. But "existing mailing lists" generally means wikien-l - once highly purposed toward resolving on-wiki disputes - is now notoriously dismissive of dispute resolution issues and geared more toward discussing Wikipedia's media image.
Discussing specific disputes tends to annoy people on the existing mailing lists and it doesn't make sense to discuss mailing list disputes on-wiki, so the obvious answer seems to be a separate mailing list (or several, divided up by language I don't know if the non-English lists have a problem needing this solution or not).
OK, I agree, but would want to generalize it into either the dispute resolution or mailing list dimensions. A 'mailing list for discussing mailing lists and related issues? Hm.
I think it being a low traffic list would be a good thing - the moderators would all have to be there and a few mailing list regulars would sign up to keep an eye on things and disputes could hopefully be resolved with a minimum of drama.
Alright. I am not easily persuaded, but you make an interesting case. A lists-l list then.
We can there discuss a new possible disputes-l list, as well as any ending any defunct lists, etc.
-Steven
2009/8/10 stevertigo owl@spaz.org:
2009/8/8 Stevertjgo owl@spaz.org:
I think those high level discussion can take place either on-wiki or on existing mailing lists without a problem.
I generally agree. But "existing mailing lists" generally means wikien-l - once highly purposed toward resolving on-wiki disputes - is now notoriously dismissive of dispute resolution issues and geared more toward discussing Wikipedia's media image.
wikien-l is dismissive of specific disputes, I don't think people would object to civil, non-sensational, good faith discussions about the dispute resolution process.
OK, I agree, but would want to generalize it into either the dispute resolution or mailing list dimensions. A 'mailing list for discussing mailing lists and related issues? Hm.
Yeah, that would work.
Remind me, please, why we are still talking about this.
skype: node.ue
On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 4:13 PM, stevertigoowl@spaz.org wrote:
2009/8/8 Stevertjgo owl@spaz.org:
I think those high level discussion can take place either on-wiki or on existing mailing lists without a problem.
I generally agree. But "existing mailing lists" generally means wikien-l - once highly purposed toward resolving on-wiki disputes - is now notoriously dismissive of dispute resolution issues and geared more toward discussing Wikipedia's media image.
Discussing specific disputes tends to annoy people on the existing mailing lists and it doesn't make sense to discuss mailing list disputes on-wiki, so the obvious answer seems to be a separate mailing list (or several, divided up by language I don't know if the non-English lists have a problem needing this solution or not).
OK, I agree, but would want to generalize it into either the dispute resolution or mailing list dimensions. A 'mailing list for discussing mailing lists and related issues? Hm.
I think it being a low traffic list would be a good thing - the moderators would all have to be there and a few mailing list regulars would sign up to keep an eye on things and disputes could hopefully be resolved with a minimum of drama.
Alright. I am not easily persuaded, but you make an interesting case. A lists-l list then.
We can there discuss a new possible disputes-l list, as well as any ending any defunct lists, etc.
-Steven
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Mark Williamsonnode.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Remind me, please, why we are still talking about this.
Well, Thomas' idea about a lists-l list for discussing mailing lists and mailing list issues is new, so there is no issue of "still talking about this" when the "this" you refer to isn't one of the issues that I raised. Thomas - instead of just complaining about having meta discussions here - is actually doing something productive, and proposes an interesting solution to everybody's problems:
1) nobody likes me taking issue with non-Foundation issues here on foundation-l, 2) but still my issues are legitimate and need to be addressed openly. 3) A lists-l list would be the perfect place to discuss a) blocks, b) issues with list admins, c) new list proposals, d) proposals to integrate or deprecate existing lists, etc.
Cary of course would run lists-l, and keeping list discussion there means there would be no issues related to discussing meta ("off topic") issues here. All that would show on here or on wikien-l is a pointer to the top post in the thread on the lists-l archive, and everyone is happy.
-Stevertigo
I'll begin to take this thread and your proposals seriously once they get some support from somebody besides yourself and Thomas Dalton. Nothing personal, it just doesn't seem like anybody else has been paying much attention to this thread so far.
Mark
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 6:45 PM, stevertigoowl@spaz.org wrote:
Mark Williamsonnode.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Remind me, please, why we are still talking about this.
Well, Thomas' idea about a lists-l list for discussing mailing lists and mailing list issues is new, so there is no issue of "still talking about this" when the "this" you refer to isn't one of the issues that I raised. Thomas - instead of just complaining about having meta discussions here - is actually doing something productive, and proposes an interesting solution to everybody's problems:
- nobody likes me taking issue with non-Foundation issues here on
foundation-l, 2) but still my issues are legitimate and need to be addressed openly. 3) A lists-l list would be the perfect place to discuss a) blocks, b) issues with list admins, c) new list proposals, d) proposals to integrate or deprecate existing lists, etc.
Cary of course would run lists-l, and keeping list discussion there means there would be no issues related to discussing meta ("off topic") issues here. All that would show on here or on wikien-l is a pointer to the top post in the thread on the lists-l archive, and everyone is happy.
-Stevertigo
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Tom and I don't agree on everything. In fact he's been the most vocal critic of the disputes-l idea. The important difference being that he doesnt just whine about other people's ideas/discussions/issues, rather he tries To compose reasoned and sound objections and alternatives. -Steven
On 8/10/09, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'll begin to take this thread and your proposals seriously once they get some support from somebody besides yourself and Thomas Dalton. Nothing personal, it just doesn't seem like anybody else has been paying much attention to this thread so far.
Mark
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 6:45 PM, stevertigoowl@spaz.org wrote:
Mark Williamsonnode.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Remind me, please, why we are still talking about this.
Well, Thomas' idea about a lists-l list for discussing mailing lists and mailing list issues is new, so there is no issue of "still talking about this" when the "this" you refer to isn't one of the issues that I raised. Thomas - instead of just complaining about having meta discussions here - is actually doing something productive, and proposes an interesting solution to everybody's problems:
- nobody likes me taking issue with non-Foundation issues here on
foundation-l, 2) but still my issues are legitimate and need to be addressed openly. 3) A lists-l list would be the perfect place to discuss a) blocks, b) issues with list admins, c) new list proposals, d) proposals to integrate or deprecate existing lists, etc.
Cary of course would run lists-l, and keeping list discussion there means there would be no issues related to discussing meta ("off topic") issues here. All that would show on here or on wikien-l is a pointer to the top post in the thread on the lists-l archive, and everyone is happy.
-Stevertigo
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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