2007/3/27, Sabine Cretella <sabine_cretella(a)yahoo.it>it>:
Andre, now that reaction is a bit silly, don't you
think? We are not
fighting here - we are trying to make sure projects really have a good
By not letting them start?!?
People can work on the contents on incubator without problems,
but it is also relevant to make sure the UI is there.
If they can work on the incubator without problems, surely they can also
work on a separate wiki without problems?
Then again: when we started nap.wikipedia people wanted to create
contents, I was the only admin that could edit the UI,
but I had my
problems with that since I had to edit everything more than once not
being native, but the only techie that was around for that langauge.
Still we have some localization problems since not anybody can work on
it and who does has limited time - just not even a handful of people can
edit the UI ... so Incubator (and for now Betawiki) is a great place to
make sure things work out fine.
Well, nobody stops you from doing the same thing on your own wiki, do they?
As for Neapolitan now it is too late to
get people to work there. They simply don't see
the reason why they
should do things there and so we are still with a half-way (in the mean
time probably 3/4) localized UI - and that does not help the language.
So it is the fault of the neapolitans to not see that they should do it? If
they don't see the need, might that not mean that there is less need than
you consider it to be?
Small wikipedias do work and function in a different way than big ones
do. There are often language issues related as well:
what if there is
programming needed to get the chars right? Even one and half a year
after having started the nap.wikipedia we still don't have a solution
for the '' (double quote that causes italic script) that we find within
a word - we have to write ' instead of the single quote ... that is
plain annoying. And: I am the only one who could hurry after the
programmers to do that stuff and I don't have time to do so ... so we go
along with that. By requiring certain stuff to be done
first you avoid
that kind of mess and you avoid people to have that really bad
experience that new editors get annoyed since they cannot write like
they should/would. By doing the localization + some creation of contents
first: well we can make sure newbies do not have to deal with such
issues. (how would I love to see English with such an issue ... and how
would I like to see how long it takes to have it solved).
Well, if the Neapolitan Wikipedia asks to be put on hold until the double
quote problem is solved, surely people will listen? Because basically,
that's what's happening to the wanted new Wikipedias - they are being put on
hold until their problems are solved. So if that's best for them, won't it
be best for nap: too?
It is not just a "we play the hard way" thigie - it is a "let's make
sure that potential editors that are not wikiphile
find their way
through the wiki" and let the communities build up easier. Of course in
the beginning all seems to be somewhat more difficult, but all that is
done before the project is acutally an own wiki will help it afterwards
to have a nicer way to go, an easier job to build communities etc.
If they start now, they have more time to do that. Instead we are keeping
them third-class citizens 'for their own good'. Well, I don't see any good
in it. If people are having problems getting their way around the wiki and
building a community if there is no localization, they will have even more
problems doing so when they have only the incubator to go with.
I repeat: we are not sacrificing any language, we are trying to make
sure they can survive and grow more easily.
Well, helping them to survive and grow is NOT done best by keeping them
small until we think they are ready to grow, in my opinion. Why not give
them the little opportunities we can give them now now, and the greater
opportunities we can give them later later? Won't 6 months of slow growth
followed by a bloom work better than 6 months of doing nothing followed by a
Who knows me should know
that I am all for new languages, but it does not make
sense if the
communities afterwards have to hassle with thousands of issues they were
not aware of and they don't even know with who to talk.
And how is forcing them to wait helping one iota with that?
most of the time are simply left alone and that has
nothing to do with
"our own little fights".
So in other words, now to start you have to have finished already? Is that
what you're saying?
If you need an example for a wikipedia that instead of localising in
their language localises into another one ... just to
similar since there seems to be nobody able to create their UI, please
let me know ... I will happily show you the project. I did not bring up
that issue up to now, but probably it is time to do so in order to show
why certain requests are legitimate.
What does that show? To me, what it shows is that people want the best they
can get, and prefer to work in a non-ideal interface rather than working in
nothing at all. If you know such a wikipedia, why not offer them to close
down their Wikipedia and reopen it once there's a good localisation? That's
what you are doing with the new Wikipedias, basically.
Thank you for your understanding
No, I still don't understand a iota. Yes, I do understand that having a
localized interface is a good thing, and that it's a good thing to have
people work on that. But I do not understand that it is so important that
it's better to tell people to wait for it than to have them happily work
with something subobtimal.
Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com
ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels