Does the Wikimedia foundation have a statement or announcement on any plans they have to ensure Wikipedia still stays accurate and any attempts to remove information in order to comply with any requests by American government won’t happen ?
I not that the HQ of Wikipedia is in America and so it would be subject to any executive order request, just as the smithothian museums have been
The whole world is watching
James
Hi James,
I'm not the WMF, but I believe the part "I not[e] that the HQ of Wikipedia is in America and so it would be subject to any executive order request, just as the smithothian museums have been" is incorrect. Executive orders in USA are used by the president to give orders to the federal government. The Wikimedia Foundation is not the federal government so is not directly subject to executive orders. The Smithsonian, on the other hand, is the federal government.
Hope that helps.
Sincerely, Novem Linguae
Hi Novem,
Setting aside the question of whether the Smithsonian is really part of the Federal Government (not quite; it's a trust established by Congress with a governing body made up of members of all arms of the US government...) -
The Trump administration isn't worrying too much about the legality of some of its executive orders, so the WMF not being part of the federal government isn't that much relief. A scenario where the administration threatens the WMF in order to attempt to enforce some of the administration's wishes is, though perhaps not entirely likely, worryingly plausible. Such threats could be made against the WMF itself, its assets, its technical infrastructure, or individuals related to the WMF (including project volunteers).
To James' original point - doubtless the WMF is thinking carefully about how to avoid such a scenario, and how to react to it if such a thing became reality. However the WMF's usual approach when dealing with rogue states threatening the integrity of Wikipedia seems to be that it would be unhelpful (indeed, counterproductive) to be too public about such scenario planning).
Chris
On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 8:50 PM novemlinguae@gmail.com wrote:
Hi James,
I'm not the WMF, but I believe the part "I not[e] that the HQ of Wikipedia is in America and so it would be subject to any executive order request, just as the smithothian museums have been" is incorrect. Executive orders in USA are used by the president to give orders to the federal government. The Wikimedia Foundation is not the federal government so is not directly subject to executive orders. The Smithsonian, on the other hand, is the federal government.
Hope that helps.
Sincerely, Novem Linguae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
At the last week House audition over PBS and NPR, Taylor Greene and other Republicans repeatedly referred to Wikipédia (in the context of former employer of Katherine Maher) as a "well known source of fake news" or something to the likes of that. I have no doubts that they will go after WMF and Wikipedia in general at some point in the near future.
Paulo
Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com escreveu (domingo, 30/03/2025 à(s) 21:44):
Hi Novem,
Setting aside the question of whether the Smithsonian is really part of the Federal Government (not quite; it's a trust established by Congress with a governing body made up of members of all arms of the US government...) -
The Trump administration isn't worrying too much about the legality of some of its executive orders, so the WMF not being part of the federal government isn't that much relief. A scenario where the administration threatens the WMF in order to attempt to enforce some of the administration's wishes is, though perhaps not entirely likely, worryingly plausible. Such threats could be made against the WMF itself, its assets, its technical infrastructure, or individuals related to the WMF (including project volunteers).
To James' original point - doubtless the WMF is thinking carefully about how to avoid such a scenario, and how to react to it if such a thing became reality. However the WMF's usual approach when dealing with rogue states threatening the integrity of Wikipedia seems to be that it would be unhelpful (indeed, counterproductive) to be too public about such scenario planning).
Chris
On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 8:50 PM novemlinguae@gmail.com wrote:
Hi James,
I'm not the WMF, but I believe the part "I not[e] that the HQ of Wikipedia is in America and so it would be subject to any executive order request, just as the smithothian museums have been" is incorrect. Executive orders in USA are used by the president to give orders to the federal government. The Wikimedia Foundation is not the federal government so is not directly subject to executive orders. The Smithsonian, on the other hand, is the federal government.
Hope that helps.
Sincerely, Novem Linguae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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Many people and governments have had attempts at having a go at Wikipedia and segments of the movement, I dont have any major concerns about The WMF and its staff being capable of dealing with issues that may arise. Please remember that the WMF has no editorial control over content; it is just a service provider, and content is in the hands of the community. There are areas of risk greater than content but again the WMF will have prepared risk assessments and be actively watching for potential impacts.
I would like to remind people that these lists are public and that in the interest of not putting beans up anyone's noses lets exercise trust in those doing difficult jobs at this point in time.
On Mon, 31 Mar 2025 at 10:09, Paulo Santos Perneta paulosperneta@gmail.com wrote:
At the last week House audition over PBS and NPR, Taylor Greene and other Republicans repeatedly referred to Wikipédia (in the context of former employer of Katherine Maher) as a "well known source of fake news" or something to the likes of that. I have no doubts that they will go after WMF and Wikipedia in general at some point in the near future.
Paulo
Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com escreveu (domingo, 30/03/2025 à(s) 21:44):
Hi Novem,
Setting aside the question of whether the Smithsonian is really part of the Federal Government (not quite; it's a trust established by Congress with a governing body made up of members of all arms of the US government...) -
The Trump administration isn't worrying too much about the legality of some of its executive orders, so the WMF not being part of the federal government isn't that much relief. A scenario where the administration threatens the WMF in order to attempt to enforce some of the administration's wishes is, though perhaps not entirely likely, worryingly plausible. Such threats could be made against the WMF itself, its assets, its technical infrastructure, or individuals related to the WMF (including project volunteers).
To James' original point - doubtless the WMF is thinking carefully about how to avoid such a scenario, and how to react to it if such a thing became reality. However the WMF's usual approach when dealing with rogue states threatening the integrity of Wikipedia seems to be that it would be unhelpful (indeed, counterproductive) to be too public about such scenario planning).
Chris
On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 8:50 PM novemlinguae@gmail.com wrote:
Hi James,
I'm not the WMF, but I believe the part "I not[e] that the HQ of Wikipedia is in America and so it would be subject to any executive order request, just as the smithothian museums have been" is incorrect. Executive orders in USA are used by the president to give orders to the federal government. The Wikimedia Foundation is not the federal government so is not directly subject to executive orders. The Smithsonian, on the other hand, is the federal government.
Hope that helps.
Sincerely, Novem Linguae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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The full DOGE hearing of March 26 at the house is available here, in case anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys4GTSB6Kv8
BTW, I don't like the notion that we can't talk publicly about stuff because we would be telling others how to put beans up the nose. Yes, there is an obvious risk for the WMF, and yes, it's also related to content, as a US court can effectively command WMF to change or eliminate content despite whatever the community may wish, as has happened in the past.
Paulo
Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com escreveu (segunda, 31/03/2025 à(s) 09:35):
Many people and governments have had attempts at having a go at Wikipedia and segments of the movement, I dont have any major concerns about The WMF and its staff being capable of dealing with issues that may arise. Please remember that the WMF has no editorial control over content; it is just a service provider, and content is in the hands of the community. There are areas of risk greater than content but again the WMF will have prepared risk assessments and be actively watching for potential impacts.
I would like to remind people that these lists are public and that in the interest of not putting beans up anyone's noses lets exercise trust in those doing difficult jobs at this point in time.
On Mon, 31 Mar 2025 at 10:09, Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
At the last week House audition over PBS and NPR, Taylor Greene and other Republicans repeatedly referred to Wikipédia (in the context of former employer of Katherine Maher) as a "well known source of fake news" or something to the likes of that. I have no doubts that they will go after WMF and Wikipedia in general at some point in the near future.
Paulo
Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com escreveu (domingo, 30/03/2025 à(s) 21:44):
Hi Novem,
Setting aside the question of whether the Smithsonian is really part of the Federal Government (not quite; it's a trust established by Congress with a governing body made up of members of all arms of the US government...) -
The Trump administration isn't worrying too much about the legality of some of its executive orders, so the WMF not being part of the federal government isn't that much relief. A scenario where the administration threatens the WMF in order to attempt to enforce some of the administration's wishes is, though perhaps not entirely likely, worryingly plausible. Such threats could be made against the WMF itself, its assets, its technical infrastructure, or individuals related to the WMF (including project volunteers).
To James' original point - doubtless the WMF is thinking carefully about how to avoid such a scenario, and how to react to it if such a thing became reality. However the WMF's usual approach when dealing with rogue states threatening the integrity of Wikipedia seems to be that it would be unhelpful (indeed, counterproductive) to be too public about such scenario planning).
Chris
On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 8:50 PM novemlinguae@gmail.com wrote:
Hi James,
I'm not the WMF, but I believe the part "I not[e] that the HQ of Wikipedia is in America and so it would be subject to any executive order request, just as the smithothian museums have been" is incorrect. Executive orders in USA are used by the president to give orders to the federal government. The Wikimedia Foundation is not the federal government so is not directly subject to executive orders. The Smithsonian, on the other hand, is the federal government.
Hope that helps.
Sincerely, Novem Linguae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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-- Boodarwun Gnangarra 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardon nlangan Nyungar koortabodjar'
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Aside from content, there is also the under discussed risk of certain Wikipedia editors being at risk for deportation for contributing content to Wikipedia the administration does not agree with and the border staff have been able to identify them
So even if Wikipedia itself isn’t at risk, the editors could be and therefore any future content or contributions
James
On Mon, Mar 31, 2025 at 10:00, Paulo Santos Perneta <[paulosperneta@gmail.com](mailto:On Mon, Mar 31, 2025 at 10:00, Paulo Santos Perneta <<a href=)> wrote:
The full DOGE hearing of March 26 at the house is available here, in case anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys4GTSB6Kv8
BTW, I don't like the notion that we can't talk publicly about stuff because we would be telling others how to put beans up the nose. Yes, there is an obvious risk for the WMF, and yes, it's also related to content, as a US court can effectively command WMF to change or eliminate content despite whatever the community may wish, as has happened in the past.
Paulo
Gnangarra < gnangarra@gmail.com> escreveu (segunda, 31/03/2025 à(s) 09:35):
Many people and governments have had attempts at having a go at Wikipedia and segments of the movement, I dont have any major concerns about The WMF and its staff being capable of dealing with issues that may arise. Please remember that the WMF has no editorial control over content; it is just a service provider, and content is in the hands of the community. There are areas of risk greater than content but again the WMF will have prepared risk assessments and be actively watching for potential impacts.
I would like to remind people that these lists are public and that in the interest of not putting beans up anyone's noses lets exercise trust in those doing difficult jobs at this point in time.
On Mon, 31 Mar 2025 at 10:09, Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
At the last week House audition over PBS and NPR, Taylor Greene and other Republicans repeatedly referred to Wikipédia (in the context of former employer of Katherine Maher) as a "well known source of fake news" or something to the likes of that. I have no doubts that they will go after WMF and Wikipedia in general at some point in the near future.
Paulo
Chris Keating < chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com> escreveu (domingo, 30/03/2025 à(s) 21:44):
Hi Novem,
Setting aside the question of whether the Smithsonian is really part of the Federal Government (not quite; it's a trust established by Congress with a governing body made up of members of all arms of the US government...) -
The Trump administration isn't worrying too much about the legality of some of its executive orders, so the WMF not being part of the federal government isn't that much relief. A scenario where the administration threatens the WMF in order to attempt to enforce some of the administration's wishes is, though perhaps not entirely likely, worryingly plausible. Such threats could be made against the WMF itself, its assets, its technical infrastructure, or individuals related to the WMF (including project volunteers).
To James' original point - doubtless the WMF is thinking carefully about how to avoid such a scenario, and how to react to it if such a thing became reality. However the WMF's usual approach when dealing with rogue states threatening the integrity of Wikipedia seems to be that it would be unhelpful (indeed, counterproductive) to be too public about such scenario planning).
Chris
On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 8:50 PM < novemlinguae@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi James,
I'm not the WMF, but I believe the part "I not[e] that the HQ of Wikipedia is in America and so it would be subject to any executive order request, just as the smithothian museums have been" is incorrect. Executive orders in USA are used by the president to give orders to the federal government. The Wikimedia Foundation is not the federal government so is not directly subject to executive orders. The Smithsonian, on the other hand, is the federal government.
Hope that helps.
Sincerely, Novem Linguae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/H4A36NCYQBO2SBCWYZUCJRVHZ4FQQTLS/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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--
Boodarwun Gnangarra 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardon nlangan Nyungar koortabodjar'
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As an immediate step, I would encourage WMF and all US-based Wikimedia organizations to discontinue events with non-US participation taking place in the US. The US is not a safe destination for international travel at this point, and placing that risk calculation on individual attendees is not reasonable.
Warmly, Erik
And it's started.
Doug Weller English Wikipedia administrator/CheckUser/Oversight Member of the Arbitration Committee 2015-2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Weller
On Mon, Apr 14, 2025 at 8:12 PM Erik Moeller eloquence@gmail.com wrote:
As an immediate step, I would encourage WMF and all US-based Wikimedia organizations to discontinue events with non-US participation taking place in the US. The US is not a safe destination for international travel at this point, and placing that risk calculation on individual attendees is not reasonable.
Warmly, Erik _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
context https://www.thefp.com/p/trump-prosecutor-threatens-wikipedia
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 at 14:58, Doug Weller dougwellerarbcom@gmail.com wrote:
And it's started.
Doug Weller English Wikipedia administrator/CheckUser/Oversight Member of the Arbitration Committee 2015-2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Weller
On Mon, Apr 14, 2025 at 8:12 PM Erik Moeller eloquence@gmail.com wrote:
As an immediate step, I would encourage WMF and all US-based Wikimedia organizations to discontinue events with non-US participation taking place in the US. The US is not a safe destination for international travel at this point, and placing that risk calculation on individual attendees is not reasonable.
Warmly, Erik _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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The actual document might be found at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ocNyx34Et19sKtlta0bTPPzSPcpi375T/view
Hrrrm, that's a google drive address. Not sure if accurate.
The list of questions seems fairly straightforward, are a variant on "wikipedia can't possibly work" and WMF should be able to answer them *reasonably* easily, I should think. At least: Given a normal political climate.
The letter frames it like WMF controls the projects, rather than (hopefully) the other way around.
I think it's important for the WMF to emphasize that wikipedia is community-governed, and they're there to facilitate.
I do feel the USA is becoming a bit less safe. Has the WMF considered a bug-out location, just in case things get worse?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 06:18:52PM +0800, Gnangarra wrote:
context https://www.thefp.com/p/trump-prosecutor-threatens-wikipedia
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 at 14:58, Doug Weller dougwellerarbcom@gmail.com wrote:
And it's started.
Doug Weller English Wikipedia administrator/CheckUser/Oversight Member of the Arbitration Committee 2015-2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Weller
On Mon, Apr 14, 2025 at 8:12 PM Erik Moeller eloquence@gmail.com wrote:
As an immediate step, I would encourage WMF and all US-based Wikimedia organizations to discontinue events with non-US participation taking place in the US. The US is not a safe destination for international travel at this point, and placing that risk calculation on individual attendees is not reasonable.
Warmly, Erik _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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-- Boodarwun Gnangarra 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardon nlangan Nyungar koortabodjar'
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It seems the DOJ responded soon after this was published.
https://www.adl.org/resources/report/editing-hate-how-anti-israel-and-anti-j...
This may or may not be of relevance.
Otherwise I guess best left to foundation to answer at first.
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 01:52:40PM +0200, Kim Bruning wrote:
The actual document might be found at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ocNyx34Et19sKtlta0bTPPzSPcpi375T/view
Hrrrm, that's a google drive address. Not sure if accurate.
The list of questions seems fairly straightforward, are a variant on "wikipedia can't possibly work" and WMF should be able to answer them *reasonably* easily, I should think. At least: Given a normal political climate.
The letter frames it like WMF controls the projects, rather than (hopefully) the other way around.
I think it's important for the WMF to emphasize that wikipedia is community-governed, and they're there to facilitate.
I do feel the USA is becoming a bit less safe. Has the WMF considered a bug-out location, just in case things get worse?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 06:18:52PM +0800, Gnangarra wrote:
context https://www.thefp.com/p/trump-prosecutor-threatens-wikipedia
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 at 14:58, Doug Weller dougwellerarbcom@gmail.com wrote:
And it's started.
Doug Weller English Wikipedia administrator/CheckUser/Oversight Member of the Arbitration Committee 2015-2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Weller
On Mon, Apr 14, 2025 at 8:12 PM Erik Moeller eloquence@gmail.com wrote:
As an immediate step, I would encourage WMF and all US-based Wikimedia organizations to discontinue events with non-US participation taking place in the US. The US is not a safe destination for international travel at this point, and placing that risk calculation on individual attendees is not reasonable.
Warmly, Erik _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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-- Boodarwun Gnangarra 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardon nlangan Nyungar koortabodjar'
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Has anyone done a risk assessment for board members, who now stand accused of “subverting the interests of American taxpayers”, visiting the United States on WMF (or any other) business?
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 at 11:18, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
context https://www.thefp.com/p/trump-prosecutor-threatens-wikipedia
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 at 14:58, Doug Weller dougwellerarbcom@gmail.com wrote:
And it's started.
Doug Weller English Wikipedia administrator/CheckUser/Oversight Member of the Arbitration Committee 2015-2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Weller
On Mon, Apr 14, 2025 at 8:12 PM Erik Moeller eloquence@gmail.com wrote:
As an immediate step, I would encourage WMF and all US-based Wikimedia organizations to discontinue events with non-US participation taking place in the US. The US is not a safe destination for international travel at this point, and placing that risk calculation on individual attendees is not reasonable.
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