Hello, Having not read the original thread, I can only comment on this new thread. All the rhetoric I see here is from you, with high-minded phrases like "people are at the heart" (as if Wikimedia staff were non-people), a total lack of concrete points or examples, citing "several experts in the field", and melodramatic statements like "the total disregard of [the people] by its leaders will [destroy Wikipedia]". If you have complaints, please be specific about what you think is wrong and what concrete actions can remedy it. -- Yours cordially, Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild) On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net> wrote:

* was discussed extensively On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus(a)colorado.edu> wrote: -- You have successfully failed!

on 1/8/09 8:41 PM, Thomas Dalton at thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com wrote: And when the community encounters a problem it can't seem to deal with, who can it turn to for help? Marc

2009/1/8 Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net>et>: Marc, can you give examples of what kind of help you'd like to see? -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

Marc Riddell wrote: Why are local ArbComs insufficient for this? If the community is unable to resolve the dispute, I highly doubt someone who's a relative outsider stepping in the middle would be able to unless they just issue an official, non-negotiable edict. And how is the foundation supposed to resolve this? Counsel people into changing their opinions? Ban people who appear to be suppressing criticism? Forcibly change policies? Act as proxies for people afraid of criticism? I'm struggling to think of anything that could be done on a foundation level that would be effective here. Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man)

Marc Riddell wrote: And your attitude illustrates the problem with many (not all) of the "critics" and "dissenters." Rather than reply to my points or explain your ideas further when questioned, you choose to attack me. Those weren't rhetorical questions. I really was curious as to what you were suggesting. -- Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man)

Erik Moeller wrote: Perhaps in the earliest days Jimbo performed that role, but even viewing all of his actions in the best possible light still leaves the insurmountable scalability problem. It is hard to imagine any other Solomon scalably capable of fulfilling the theological side of the god-king function. The difficulty with ArbCom in this context is that it remains by nature a quasi-judicial process. Those who come before it on either side of a dispute do so with pre-established positions, often based on legalistic interpretations of literal rules. When an issue is caught up in such an adversarial maelstrom it is far more difficult to arrive at a collaborative solution. If we further treat ArbCom decisions as de facto precedents, resolution of the problems themselves, apart from the personalities involved, becomes even more difficult. My own vision of a volunteer council absolutely did not include a Meta-ArbCom. That would almost certainly have doomed it to ineffectiveness. My belief here is based on the principle of the separation of judicial and legislative functions. Putting this in terms of the scientific method: it conflates legislative theorizing with judicial hypothesis testing. Impossibility notwithstanding, Marc does draw attention to a serious problem. As the one who first drew attention to the unfortunate phrase "23-member organization" I don't want Marc to be the one taking all the flak for this. I appreciate that the person who used the phrase is willing to consider Marc's points seriously, and are refraining from increasing the voltage in a Milgram experiment as some others are wont to do. The underlying difficulties are indeed with the decision making process, the perpetual deletion/inclusion debate being only one flash-point within that larger system. We have a significant number of editors who participate actively and regularly on rules development. They spend a great deal of time on such tasks, supported by a number of like-minded individuals who readily arrive at a consensus. Often there is little or no opposition to these developments, because the largest part of the community either does not take time to follow keep up with these developments, or may not be capable of analyzing the deeper implications of these changes. Individuals who must budget their time available for contributions would much rather spend that valuable time working on articles related to their personal interests, and not on endlessly fruitless debates about the minutiæ of rules. Unless they are directly affected by the debate of the moment they won't say anything. There are no doubt comments that I made here six years ago that anticipated this state of things. I have also consistently had serious reservations about the WMF stepping in to rescue us from ourselves. That could set a precedent. Your fear that WMF blessings might hinder innovation and experimentation is well placed. In some cases such blessings may be the only solution that works. Wisdom may require a recursive mechanism where even the blessing may be changed by following its own rules. That we don't know how to achieve change is painfully close to the truth. There is the trite statement that Wikipedia is not a democracy, but much of what happens is not at all consistent with that statement either. That statement is nevertheless used by some to win arguments; often equating voting with democracy and concluding that voting is evil. Of course voting is evil, but only a narrow outlook upon democracy will make it equivalent to voting. The suggestion about trials strikes me as a bit gadgety, though there are no doubt specific problems where that would be the preferred way to go, and always a safeguard for community approbation. Philosophically, we need to reflect the paradigm shift of the interconnectivity of modern communication in the way we make decisions. To some extent the change is already beginning in areas of open source and access, but we have a lot further to go before we can unlearn our old habits about how decisions are made. Yes, I would support some WMF intervention, but I would also like to see some seriously intense sessions at Wikimania that address matters of collaborative decision making. This would involve more than a one-hour lecture plus Q&A classroom presentation. It could cover a full day, and should probably be led by someone who knows what he is doing, As many potential decision makers as possible should be encouraged to attend, and getting them there could be a major criterion for allocating scholarships to attend Wikimania. I feel very strongly about the importance of resolving our decision making difficulties, and we can't do it by keeping our thinking in a box. Ec

2009/1/9 Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net>et>: I note that I have asked you before if you've actually attempted to work directly with the community on-wiki, and you demurred: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2009-January/097693.html You claim to be defending the community in the abstract, but don't appear to want to put in the effort to actually work directly with the people in said community. - d.

2009/1/10 Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net>et>: Yes, people are difficult to work with and remain the key problem in dealing with them. What do you propose to deal with this? (I submit that something that absolves you of actually having to work with them and convince them is not likely to work.) - d.