Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder.
For completeness, it is worth mentioning that the new Chart extension, replacing Graph, is enabled on Swedish, Italian and Hebrew Wikipedia.
Best regards, Jan Ainali
Den mån 21 apr. 2025 kl 19:35 skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com>:
Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
In English Wikipedia, I am forced to change my line charts to bar graphs while waiting for the result of the full deployment of chart extension.
For example, chart for the poverty incidence is present in some of the Philippine local administrative articles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negros_Oriental#Economy
Sincerely,
Butch Bustria
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Tue, Apr 22, 2025, 1:44 AM Jan Ainali ainali.jan@gmail.com wrote:
For completeness, it is worth mentioning that the new Chart extension, replacing Graph, is enabled on Swedish, Italian and Hebrew Wikipedia.
Best regards, Jan Ainali
Den mån 21 apr. 2025 kl 19:35 skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com>:
Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
One thing to keep in mind here is that MediaWiki is not made for rich media natively beyond static images. Things like charts are hard to do for us for historical reasons. I’ve worked on charting and it’s hard to fulfill all chart UIs even in simple business software. Doing it for the world’s largest collaborative editing platform seems even harder.
With that context, if you want to see more urgency I would A) ask if there are technical blockers still remaining on your wiki and B) if that’s not the answer, help the WMF out by loudly advocating for rollout and helping create consensus on your home wikis. The Foundation is constantly yelled at for moving too fast to launch UI. They are clearly trying to help here and make a lasting fix.
On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 6:11 PM Butch Bustria bustrias@gmail.com wrote:
In English Wikipedia, I am forced to change my line charts to bar graphs while waiting for the result of the full deployment of chart extension.
For example, chart for the poverty incidence is present in some of the Philippine local administrative articles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negros_Oriental#Economy
Sincerely,
Butch Bustria
The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Tue, Apr 22, 2025, 1:44 AM Jan Ainali ainali.jan@gmail.com wrote:
For completeness, it is worth mentioning that the new Chart extension, replacing Graph, is enabled on Swedish, Italian and Hebrew Wikipedia.
Best regards, Jan Ainali
Den mån 21 apr. 2025 kl 19:35 skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com>:
Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi
The only blocker we have is called WMF. They are blocking even the
volunteer made solutions.
If you are referring to the OWID extension where it loaded third-party content through an iframe, it was pretty clear why it was blocked by WMF tech for security reasons. It was a bad idea and blocking it was the right thing to do. WMF tech can be blamed for being pretty slow on fixing things or implementing stuff, but let's not blame them for the things where they worked as they should.
Br, --Kimmo Virtanen,
On Tue, Apr 22, 2025 at 9:42 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Steven, The only blocker we have is called WMF. They are blocking even the volunteer made solutions.
That's the issue here.
2025(e)ko api. 22(a) 03:45 erabiltzaileak hau idatzi du (Steven Walling < steven.walling@gmail.com>):
One thing to keep in mind here is that MediaWiki is not made for rich media natively beyond static images. Things like charts are hard to do for us for historical reasons. I’ve worked on charting and it’s hard to fulfill all chart UIs even in simple business software. Doing it for the world’s largest collaborative editing platform seems even harder.
With that context, if you want to see more urgency I would A) ask if there are technical blockers still remaining on your wiki and B) if that’s not the answer, help the WMF out by loudly advocating for rollout and helping create consensus on your home wikis. The Foundation is constantly yelled at for moving too fast to launch UI. They are clearly trying to help here and make a lasting fix.
On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 6:11 PM Butch Bustria bustrias@gmail.com wrote:
In English Wikipedia, I am forced to change my line charts to bar graphs while waiting for the result of the full deployment of chart extension.
For example, chart for the poverty incidence is present in some of the Philippine local administrative articles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negros_Oriental#Economy
Sincerely,
Butch Bustria
The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Tue, Apr 22, 2025, 1:44 AM Jan Ainali ainali.jan@gmail.com wrote:
For completeness, it is worth mentioning that the new Chart extension, replacing Graph, is enabled on Swedish, Italian and Hebrew Wikipedia.
Best regards, Jan Ainali
Den mån 21 apr. 2025 kl 19:35 skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com>:
Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
I agree largely with Steven.
My work experience is in data analytics. When my main (enterprise-level, B2B) SaaS partner modernised their reporting interface out of business necessity, it was years in planning and development while we used an increasingly dated web-based reporting interface and then it was before a few more years in production that they decided that they had reached feature parity (and a bit more) for the charts they offered before in the old interface. Their main competitor took years of planning and development for their new web-based reporting interface to be ready for use.
The security issues that WMF tech raised 2 years ago exposed the typical opaque planning/development phases of product development cycle to us (the end consumer) all here. It is like seeing an apartment complex that you had bought years ago being built but nothing visible above ground being built because it is laden with foundational issues to be addressed. Ideally, the tech team would have fixed the security issue or put a patch to prevent further exploitation, while the development of the new chart extension would take place. But reality is different and we are here now, and I think we should be prepared for a multi-year drought of no or minimal charts until the new extension is ready for deployment in the respective wikis.
As for the volunteer-developed tool, thank you for contributing. It is simply unfortunate that WMF has concerns with the tool that need to be addressed to the level they want.
________________________________ From: Steven Walling steven.walling@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2025 9:45 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Two years without graphs
One thing to keep in mind here is that MediaWiki is not made for rich media natively beyond static images. Things like charts are hard to do for us for historical reasons. I’ve worked on charting and it’s hard to fulfill all chart UIs even in simple business software. Doing it for the world’s largest collaborative editing platform seems even harder.
With that context, if you want to see more urgency I would A) ask if there are technical blockers still remaining on your wiki and B) if that’s not the answer, help the WMF out by loudly advocating for rollout and helping create consensus on your home wikis. The Foundation is constantly yelled at for moving too fast to launch UI. They are clearly trying to help here and make a lasting fix.
On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 6:11 PM Butch Bustria <bustrias@gmail.commailto:bustrias@gmail.com> wrote: In English Wikipedia, I am forced to change my line charts to bar graphs while waiting for the result of the full deployment of chart extension.
For example, chart for the poverty incidence is present in some of the Philippine local administrative articles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negros_Oriental#Economy
Sincerely,
Butch Bustria
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Tue, Apr 22, 2025, 1:44 AM Jan Ainali <ainali.jan@gmail.commailto:ainali.jan@gmail.com> wrote: For completeness, it is worth mentioning that the new Chart extension, replacing Graph, is enabled on Swedish, Italian and Hebrew Wikipedia.
Best regards, Jan Ainali
Den mån 21 apr. 2025 kl 19:35 skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.commailto:galder158@hotmail.com>: Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
We have a new version of our OWID visualization effort that is 100% based on svgs from Commons.
See way 3 here https://mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID
We are still working on improvements though. And it is still a little data/bandwidth heavy. Hope to have a better version ready by Wikimania. If any language versions wish to try it in this early stage please reach out.
James
On Tue, Apr 22, 2025 at 1:39 PM Robert Sim contact@robertsky.com wrote:
I agree largely with Steven.
My work experience is in data analytics. When my main (enterprise-level, B2B) SaaS partner modernised their reporting interface out of business necessity, it was years in planning and development while we used an increasingly dated web-based reporting interface and then it was before a few more years in production that they decided that they had reached feature parity (and a bit more) for the charts they offered before in the old interface. Their main competitor took years of planning and development for their new web-based reporting interface to be ready for use.
The security issues that WMF tech raised 2 years ago exposed the typical opaque planning/development phases of product development cycle to us (the end consumer) all here. It is like seeing an apartment complex that you had bought years ago being built but nothing visible above ground being built because it is laden with foundational issues to be addressed. Ideally, the tech team would have fixed the security issue or put a patch to prevent further exploitation, while the development of the new chart extension would take place. But reality is different and we are here now, and I think we should be prepared for a multi-year drought of no or minimal charts until the new extension is ready for deployment in the respective wikis.
As for the volunteer-developed tool, thank you for contributing. It is simply unfortunate that WMF has concerns with the tool that need to be addressed to the level they want.
*From:* Steven Walling steven.walling@gmail.com *Sent:* Tuesday, April 22, 2025 9:45 AM *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Two years without graphs
One thing to keep in mind here is that MediaWiki is not made for rich media natively beyond static images. Things like charts are hard to do for us for historical reasons. I’ve worked on charting and it’s hard to fulfill all chart UIs even in simple business software. Doing it for the world’s largest collaborative editing platform seems even harder.
With that context, if you want to see more urgency I would A) ask if there are technical blockers still remaining on your wiki and B) if that’s not the answer, help the WMF out by loudly advocating for rollout and helping create consensus on your home wikis. The Foundation is constantly yelled at for moving too fast to launch UI. They are clearly trying to help here and make a lasting fix.
On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 6:11 PM Butch Bustria bustrias@gmail.com wrote:
In English Wikipedia, I am forced to change my line charts to bar graphs while waiting for the result of the full deployment of chart extension.
For example, chart for the poverty incidence is present in some of the Philippine local administrative articles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negros_Oriental#Economy
Sincerely,
Butch Bustria
The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Tue, Apr 22, 2025, 1:44 AM Jan Ainali ainali.jan@gmail.com wrote:
For completeness, it is worth mentioning that the new Chart extension, replacing Graph, is enabled on Swedish, Italian and Hebrew Wikipedia.
Best regards, Jan Ainali
Den mån 21 apr. 2025 kl 19:35 skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com>:
Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Dear all, Two months ago, I wrote this message when we had been without graphs for two years. Some of the answers said that the roll out was imminent, and eventually that happened last week for all wikis. This was a long-waited issue, as we have been around 10% of the history of Wikipedia with an error message instead of a graph. To my surprise, the new charts extension doesn't solve the issue, except for a very small subsets of graphs.
Three years ago, we partnered with the University of the Basque Country to show climate data in articles. Some students worked on fetching and uploading the data to Commons, and we had a cool interactive graph for showing the data. Just two weeks after completion the graphs were disabled, so they were unable to show the result anywhere. This week, after charts come again, we discovered that those interactive graphs can't be shown, as the only solution gives is an unusable line chart (https://eu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Altsasu&diff=10310336&old...).
Another main use case was showing population growth graphs using Wikidata. Having population data in Wikidata isn't a surprise at all. After all, Wikidata is for data. However, the charts can't show data coming from our data site. Instead, the suggestion is to reupload all the data from Wikidata to Commons, making it not only redundant, but difficult to track. And even if that was solved, the approach would be to create a graph definition for every populated place in the world, instead of just having one graph loading data from Wikidata.
What should we do? Should we delete the broken graphs and assume that we won't have a solution for those? Or should we wait two more years to have something usable?
The situation is critical, but not serious.
Galder
________________________________ From: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga galder158@hotmail.com Sent: Monday, April 21, 2025 7:35 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Two years without graphs
Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder.
Hi Galder,
There was an update posted on the following ticket:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T334940
*The Charts extension has now been deployed also to English Wikipedia. For those interested in re-enabling interactive charts by converting graphs to the new Chart extension, see this tool graphDataImport https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Tomastvivlaren/graphDataImport which makes this quick & easy and also the alternatives in the See also section there. Anything related to any of this can be asked in this new WikiProject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Data_Visualization.*
*This will fix graphs with static data. We still need a solution for pageview graphs.*
Also for everyone,
On a related note, I am looking for a topic collaborator on a Wikimania 2025 program proposal related to Data Visualization from a Wikidata Query.
https://wikimedia.eventyay.com/talk/wikimania2025/talk/review/MNF7YTHVLU7LNP...
Kindly send me a private message on Telegram or an off list separate email message.
Sincerely,
Butch Bustria
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Sat, Jun 7, 2025, 6:16 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear all, Two months ago, I wrote this message when we had been without graphs for two years. Some of the answers said that the roll out was imminent, and eventually that happened last week for all wikis. This was a long-waited issue, as we have been around 10% of the history of Wikipedia with an error message instead of a graph. To my surprise, the new charts extension doesn't solve the issue, except for a very small subsets of graphs.
Three years ago, we partnered with the University of the Basque Country to show climate data in articles. Some students worked on fetching and uploading the data to Commons, and we had a cool interactive graph for showing the data. Just two weeks after completion the graphs were disabled, so they were unable to show the result anywhere. This week, after charts come again, we discovered that those interactive graphs can't be shown, as the only solution gives is an unusable line chart ( https://eu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Altsasu&diff=10310336&old... ).
Another main use case was showing population growth graphs using Wikidata. Having population data in Wikidata isn't a surprise at all. After all, Wikidata is for data. However, the charts can't show data coming from our data site. Instead, the suggestion is to reupload all the data from Wikidata to Commons, making it not only redundant, but difficult to track. And even if that was solved, the approach would be to create a graph definition for every populated place in the world, instead of just having one graph loading data from Wikidata.
What should we do? Should we delete the broken graphs and assume that we won't have a solution for those? Or should we wait two more years to have something usable?
The situation is critical, but not serious.
Galder
*From:* Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga galder158@hotmail.com *Sent:* Monday, April 21, 2025 7:35 PM *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Two years without graphs
Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Thanks Butch, Yes, that's the point: the solution doesn't solve the issue. A total disaster. ________________________________ From: Butch Bustria bustrias@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, June 7, 2025 12:52 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Two years without graphs
Hi Galder,
There was an update posted on the following ticket:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T334940
The Charts extension has now been deployed also to English Wikipedia. For those interested in re-enabling interactive charts by converting graphs to the new Chart extension, see this tool graphDataImporthttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Tomastvivlaren/graphDataImport which makes this quick & easy and also the alternatives in the See also section there. Anything related to any of this can be asked in this new WikiProjecthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Data_Visualization.
This will fix graphs with static data. We still need a solution for pageview graphs.
Also for everyone,
On a related note, I am looking for a topic collaborator on a Wikimania 2025 program proposal related to Data Visualization from a Wikidata Query.
https://wikimedia.eventyay.com/talk/wikimania2025/talk/review/MNF7YTHVLU7LNP...
Kindly send me a private message on Telegram or an off list separate email message.
Sincerely,
Butch Bustria
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Sat, Jun 7, 2025, 6:16 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.commailto:galder158@hotmail.com> wrote: Dear all, Two months ago, I wrote this message when we had been without graphs for two years. Some of the answers said that the roll out was imminent, and eventually that happened last week for all wikis. This was a long-waited issue, as we have been around 10% of the history of Wikipedia with an error message instead of a graph. To my surprise, the new charts extension doesn't solve the issue, except for a very small subsets of graphs.
Three years ago, we partnered with the University of the Basque Country to show climate data in articles. Some students worked on fetching and uploading the data to Commons, and we had a cool interactive graph for showing the data. Just two weeks after completion the graphs were disabled, so they were unable to show the result anywhere. This week, after charts come again, we discovered that those interactive graphs can't be shown, as the only solution gives is an unusable line chart (https://eu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Altsasu&diff=10310336&old...).
Another main use case was showing population growth graphs using Wikidata. Having population data in Wikidata isn't a surprise at all. After all, Wikidata is for data. However, the charts can't show data coming from our data site. Instead, the suggestion is to reupload all the data from Wikidata to Commons, making it not only redundant, but difficult to track. And even if that was solved, the approach would be to create a graph definition for every populated place in the world, instead of just having one graph loading data from Wikidata.
What should we do? Should we delete the broken graphs and assume that we won't have a solution for those? Or should we wait two more years to have something usable?
The situation is critical, but not serious.
Galder
________________________________ From: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.commailto:galder158@hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2025 7:35 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Two years without graphs
Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Butch am hoping to talk about our efforts regarding OWID visualization at Wikimania
https://wikimedia.eventyay.com/talk/wikimania2025/talk/review/JVV8PSVM9QQWYR...
We are pulling the underlying data from Commons as they are CC BY. Would be excellent to have a number of talks on these topics.
James
On Sat, Jun 7, 2025 at 8:02 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Butch, Yes, that's the point: the solution doesn't solve the issue. A total disaster.
*From:* Butch Bustria bustrias@gmail.com *Sent:* Saturday, June 7, 2025 12:52 PM *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Two years without graphs
Hi Galder,
There was an update posted on the following ticket:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T334940
*The Charts extension has now been deployed also to English Wikipedia. For those interested in re-enabling interactive charts by converting graphs to the new Chart extension, see this tool graphDataImport https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Tomastvivlaren/graphDataImport which makes this quick & easy and also the alternatives in the See also section there. Anything related to any of this can be asked in this new WikiProject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Data_Visualization.*
*This will fix graphs with static data. We still need a solution for pageview graphs.*
Also for everyone,
On a related note, I am looking for a topic collaborator on a Wikimania 2025 program proposal related to Data Visualization from a Wikidata Query.
https://wikimedia.eventyay.com/talk/wikimania2025/talk/review/MNF7YTHVLU7LNP...
Kindly send me a private message on Telegram or an off list separate email message.
Sincerely,
Butch Bustria
The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Sat, Jun 7, 2025, 6:16 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear all, Two months ago, I wrote this message when we had been without graphs for two years. Some of the answers said that the roll out was imminent, and eventually that happened last week for all wikis. This was a long-waited issue, as we have been around 10% of the history of Wikipedia with an error message instead of a graph. To my surprise, the new charts extension doesn't solve the issue, except for a very small subsets of graphs.
Three years ago, we partnered with the University of the Basque Country to show climate data in articles. Some students worked on fetching and uploading the data to Commons, and we had a cool interactive graph for showing the data. Just two weeks after completion the graphs were disabled, so they were unable to show the result anywhere. This week, after charts come again, we discovered that those interactive graphs can't be shown, as the only solution gives is an unusable line chart ( https://eu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Altsasu&diff=10310336&old... ).
Another main use case was showing population growth graphs using Wikidata. Having population data in Wikidata isn't a surprise at all. After all, Wikidata is for data. However, the charts can't show data coming from our data site. Instead, the suggestion is to reupload all the data from Wikidata to Commons, making it not only redundant, but difficult to track. And even if that was solved, the approach would be to create a graph definition for every populated place in the world, instead of just having one graph loading data from Wikidata.
What should we do? Should we delete the broken graphs and assume that we won't have a solution for those? Or should we wait two more years to have something usable?
The situation is critical, but not serious.
Galder
*From:* Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga galder158@hotmail.com *Sent:* Monday, April 21, 2025 7:35 PM *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Two years without graphs
Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi Doc James,
This is great news. We could use the opportunity to refer to each others session in relation to data collection and data visualization.
Sincerely,
Butch Bustria
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Sun, Jun 8, 2025, 5:27 AM James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
Butch am hoping to talk about our efforts regarding OWID visualization at Wikimania
https://wikimedia.eventyay.com/talk/wikimania2025/talk/review/JVV8PSVM9QQWYR...
We are pulling the underlying data from Commons as they are CC BY. Would be excellent to have a number of talks on these topics.
James
On Sat, Jun 7, 2025 at 8:02 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Butch, Yes, that's the point: the solution doesn't solve the issue. A total disaster.
*From:* Butch Bustria bustrias@gmail.com *Sent:* Saturday, June 7, 2025 12:52 PM *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Two years without graphs
Hi Galder,
There was an update posted on the following ticket:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T334940
*The Charts extension has now been deployed also to English Wikipedia. For those interested in re-enabling interactive charts by converting graphs to the new Chart extension, see this tool graphDataImport https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Tomastvivlaren/graphDataImport which makes this quick & easy and also the alternatives in the See also section there. Anything related to any of this can be asked in this new WikiProject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Data_Visualization.*
*This will fix graphs with static data. We still need a solution for pageview graphs.*
Also for everyone,
On a related note, I am looking for a topic collaborator on a Wikimania 2025 program proposal related to Data Visualization from a Wikidata Query.
https://wikimedia.eventyay.com/talk/wikimania2025/talk/review/MNF7YTHVLU7LNP...
Kindly send me a private message on Telegram or an off list separate email message.
Sincerely,
Butch Bustria
The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Sat, Jun 7, 2025, 6:16 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear all, Two months ago, I wrote this message when we had been without graphs for two years. Some of the answers said that the roll out was imminent, and eventually that happened last week for all wikis. This was a long-waited issue, as we have been around 10% of the history of Wikipedia with an error message instead of a graph. To my surprise, the new charts extension doesn't solve the issue, except for a very small subsets of graphs.
Three years ago, we partnered with the University of the Basque Country to show climate data in articles. Some students worked on fetching and uploading the data to Commons, and we had a cool interactive graph for showing the data. Just two weeks after completion the graphs were disabled, so they were unable to show the result anywhere. This week, after charts come again, we discovered that those interactive graphs can't be shown, as the only solution gives is an unusable line chart ( https://eu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Altsasu&diff=10310336&old... ).
Another main use case was showing population growth graphs using Wikidata. Having population data in Wikidata isn't a surprise at all. After all, Wikidata is for data. However, the charts can't show data coming from our data site. Instead, the suggestion is to reupload all the data from Wikidata to Commons, making it not only redundant, but difficult to track. And even if that was solved, the approach would be to create a graph definition for every populated place in the world, instead of just having one graph loading data from Wikidata.
What should we do? Should we delete the broken graphs and assume that we won't have a solution for those? Or should we wait two more years to have something usable?
The situation is critical, but not serious.
Galder
*From:* Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga galder158@hotmail.com *Sent:* Monday, April 21, 2025 7:35 PM *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Two years without graphs
Dear all, Two years ago, all graphs were disabled because there was a security issue. Two years later, we still have a message telling readers that graphs are broken and that it will be fixed soon. Two years gone, two years of negligence, two years of abandonment, two years of obsolescence.
The team that should be fixing it announced that the graphs would be live again this month (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T369944). There's not even a plan for that to happen ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T383079). Two years lost, two years without a solution.
Last year, a group of volunteers partially solved the issue with the OWID gadget. The WMF asked to stop solving things, while they had a meeting with people from OurWorldInData to talk about security. Seven months after the last update from the WMF, we are still waiting for a formal agreement that, obviously, is not going to happen. ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget)
Half a year ago I participated in a discussion about this issue and I said that the strategy was clear: make everyone forget that we even had graphs, so there's no need to solve the issue. No one has proven me wrong.
Two years without graphs. Two years further from our goal to be the central infrastructure of free knowledge.
Galder. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org