On 1 March 2012 10:23, Strainu <strainu10(a)gmail.com> wrote: +1 Adding a new list would be largely redundant. - d.

On Mar 1, 2012 12:12 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote: +1

On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Samuel Klein <meta.sj(a)gmail.com> wrote: OK. Any strong objections to changing the list name and scope (the latter being the description at https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ) to be all-encompassing for Wikimedia-wide issues? The rename would likely occur by unsubscribing current members from this list and re-subscribing them to the new one, to avoid breaking links or accidentally corrupting archives -- meaning that list archives pre-move would be accessible via a different URL, which could be prominently advertised in the list description. Agreed -- creating a forum that feels welcoming to everyone, regardless of their specific affiliations, is one of my strongest motivations here. Erik

I assume we also keep the current moderators and the list of users put on moderation. Cheers Yaroslav

Just to clarify, who else has access to internal, as a rule? Trusted volunteers, chapter staff/officers, and the majority of WMF staff and contractors? Richard On 01/03/2012 11:07, Thomas Dalton wrote: Richard Symonds Office& Development Manager Wikimedia UK +44 (0) 207 065 0991 -- Wikimedia UK is the operating name of Wiki UK Limited, a Charitable Company Registered in England and Wales, No: 6741827. Charity No:1144513 Office: 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. Wikimedia UK is the local chapter of the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). It is an independent non-profit organization with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Tom Morris <tom(a)tommorris.org> wrote: This could include other issues related to the movement: publicity, outreach to new communities, ambassador programs, related research. Inclusive of what is discussed on internal, but not just governance topics. In the venerable tradition of intwiki-l and (early on) wikipedia-l... We haven't really had such a list for a long time, though f-l has been used as a substitute. I associate wikimedia (and being a wikimedian) with the projects, so I would be inclined to call the latter list "wikimedia-l". Anyone who identifies with the projects should be interested in discussions that take place there. "movement-l" seems like a fine name for the first list. Whatever they are called, I agree that these two topics and audiences are easy to separate; most long threads would clearly fall into one or the other. Sam.

I think wikimedia-l would work fine and make sense. We probably don't need an additional list, a lot of the lists we have now are lightly used. I appreciate that Erik unsubscribed from internal-l. I think more people should do the same thing, on the principle that discussions about the Wikimedia Foundation and projects should occur in public. Herding debate into an exclusive clique is antithetical to the ethic of the Wikimedia movement. If the lists have a different tenor such that some people prefer internal-l over foundation-l, then the solution is more active moderation of this list. Foundation-l moderation has been absentee for sometime - I don't even recall the last time a list moderator participated in a discussion, let alone took a moderator action.

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote: Picking this up again .. I'll go ahead and make this change on Saturday 4/7, unless there are strong objections. Moving this list to wikimedia-l seems like the least disruptive change for now, acknowledging that its scope has long expanded beyond WMF matters. This is the only change -- all other list parameters would stay the same, so as to not surprise and annoy people by rolling up unrelated changes. In future we may - a) find that this is perfectly sufficient and leave it at that, b) create "movement-l" to discuss the wonderful bureaucracy that we're busily creating in more dedicated and extensive depth, c) create any other divisions that make sense, or not. :-) All best, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:37 PM, MZMcBride <z(a)mzmcbride.com> wrote: Yep. Only the new address unless we're being extra clever, which I'm not sure is necessary. Probably -- advanced mailman surgeries carry a high risk of fatal mistakes (e.g. we have a fancy pipermail URL alias, but the archive rebuild is causing URLs to change, or some such nonsense), so it's generally best to avoid them. But I'll ask Daniel Zahn, who's performed some trickier surgeries recently without fatalities (as far as I know). You will feel a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I am indeed aware of my own objection, even if it is somewhat dated. The main reason for making this change, IMO, is to account for sensibilities and perceptions that largely did not exist in 2004, when "Foundation" first and foremost referred to a bunch of people who cared more about meta-issues than others -- the org as such barely existed beyond paper, let alone the complex network of chapters, the GLAM groups, etc. Now, when you have discussions like the recently posted Draft Charter of the Wikimedia Chapters Association, or the previous extensive discussions about fundraising, to undertake them in a venue named after one specific org serves as a distraction, and has caused some people to express that they don't want to participate because it's a list for "Wikimedia Foundation matters", giving people justification to move things to private lists that should be public. So, names do matter. I'd be happy to have an even more generic name that avoids potential typo issues, but I do think the benefit of making the name less WMF-centric outweighs the cost. -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

The designer could also use https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/accounts-enwiki-l for some inspiration, which is an improvement to the wikien-l mailing list (it has dynamic resizing for example). Source code is at https://github.com/enwikipedia-acc/mailinglist, https://github.com/enwikipedia-acc/mailinglist/blob/master/listinfo.html is the main page and https://github.com/enwikipedia-acc/mailinglist/blob/master/options.html is the page with all the subscription options once you've logged in. -- Thehelpfulone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Thehelpfulone English Wikipedia Administrator

On 3 April 2012 07:04, Erik Moeller <erik(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: On 4 April 2012 10:15, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote: Hi Lodewijk, This is what Erik meant by "advanced mailman surgeries" - it's tricky business so it might not be possible, but I imagine they will still try! THO