Hoi, Currently the Allemannic Wikipedia is known under the name als.wikipedia.org. This code is wrong as the code is reserved for Tosk, the main Albanian language. We are about to give Gheg, another Albanian language conditional approval. As it will be hard to explain to some why we give Tosk conditional approval, it is decidedly awkward that Allemanic is using the wrong code.
I want to propose that the Allemanic Wikipedia is renamed to gsw.wikipedia.org and thereby associate the language with the correct ISO-639 code. The rename is opposed by people in the Allemanic Wikipedia because they do not agree with how their language is perceived. However, gswhttp://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gswhas Alemannisch as a synonym for Schwyzerdütsch and it is therefore obvious that the same language is meant.
Given that there was no contention in the language committee, the request for a Gheg Wikipedia is given conditional approval.
Thanks, GerardM
Hoi,
I fully support that idea to move als.projects to gsw.projects. "als" is the code for Tosk, and should not be used for other languages. gsw is indeed the correct ISO-639-3 code for what we call Alemannisch. It should not be confused with "Alemannic" which describes the whole group of languages shown in Ethnologue. Alemannic proper is the language called Schwyzerdüütsch in Ethnologue and in colloquial German.
Best regards, Thomas. ------------------------------------- 2008/1/4, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Currently the Allemannic Wikipedia is known under the name als.wikipedia.org. This code is wrong as the code is reserved for Tosk, the main Albanian language. We are about to give Gheg, another Albanian language conditional approval. As it will be hard to explain to some why we give Tosk conditional approval, it is decidedly awkward that Allemanic is using the wrong code.
I want to propose that the Allemanic Wikipedia is renamed to gsw.wikipedia.org and thereby associate the language with the correct ISO-639 code. The rename is opposed by people in the Allemanic Wikipedia because they do not agree with how their language is perceived. However, gswhttp://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gswhas Alemannisch as a synonym for Schwyzerdütsch and it is therefore obvious that the same language is meant.
Given that there was no contention in the language committee, the request for a Gheg Wikipedia is given conditional approval.
Thanks, GerardM
On 04/01/2008, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
I want to propose that the Allemanic Wikipedia is renamed to gsw.wikipedia.org and thereby associate the language with the correct ISO-639 code.
(I am not making any comment on whether or not to rename)
Regarding duplicate-assigned language codes - how did we get to this? I was under the impression that all our currently-existing language codes were either the correct ISO-639, or given deliberately "invalid" codes so as not to conflict with the standard ones.
Given that that is apparently not the case :-) - do we know how many other "duplicate" codes are kicking around in our projects, and would it be worth looking into renaming these sooner rather later? Any rename is tough, but the earlier it's done the less upheaval there is for everyone.
On a more practical note - if this rename is done, I note there are the best part of 3,500 articles on als.wp, and presumably they have a proportionate audience. How are we planning to handle the changeover? Making 3,500 valid URLs dead links doesn't seem productive; is there any way we can put soft redirects into the new als.wp so as to point to articles in gsw.wp? There probably won't be *too* much conflict for article names, at least not for the forseeable future.
Or a general sitenotice on the new als.wp, in Allemanic, directing people to gsw.wp, remaining up for six months or a year? Neither of these need to be particularly blatant, and won't impact the new project much, whilst still helping those who follow links to als.wp looking for Allemanic.
2008/1/4, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com:
On 04/01/2008, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
I want to propose that the Allemanic Wikipedia is renamed to gsw.wikipedia.org and thereby associate the language with the correct ISO-639 code.
(I am not making any comment on whether or not to rename)
Regarding duplicate-assigned language codes - how did we get to this? I was under the impression that all our currently-existing language codes were either the correct ISO-639, or given deliberately "invalid" codes so as not to conflict with the standard ones.
Allemanic 'took over' from a more narrowly-defined 'Alsacian' Wikipedia, which got its language code before the language code policy that you refer to came into being.
Given that that is apparently not the case :-) - do we know how many other "duplicate" codes are kicking around in our projects, and would it be worth looking into renaming these sooner rather later? Any rename is tough, but the earlier it's done the less upheaval there is for everyone.
There are no other cases like als. The only other languages that got names that are neither valid ISO-639 codes nor a code of the type we now use (being the ISO-639 code of either the language group it belongs to or the 'mother language' if it is more of a dialect, then -, then something additional to be decided on a case-by-case base, as far as I know) were tokipona and min-nan, but: 1. Those codes were longer than 3 letters and thus not conflicting with anything in ISO-639, and 2. tokipona wikipedia has been discontinued and min-nan wikipedia has already been moved.
On a more practical note - if this rename is done, I note there are the best part of 3,500 articles on als.wp, and presumably they have a proportionate audience. How are we planning to handle the changeover? Making 3,500 valid URLs dead links doesn't seem productive; is there any way we can put soft redirects into the new als.wp so as to point to articles in gsw.wp? There probably won't be *too* much conflict for article names, at least not for the forseeable future.
I have no real knowledge in the area, but I think it's not too hard to have _any_ call to http://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Someweirdtitle come out at http://gsw.wikipedia.org/wiki/Someweirdtitle. Given that there is no request yet for Tosk (and there might well not be one in the near future because of its similarity to standard Albanian), things could be done that way for the time being.
Hoi, Before we had a policy on what languages we would accept, it was not uncommon for people to vote for projects and codes that were manifestly wrong. As a consequence projects were started that would not be accepted under the new policy. Some projects like the Siberian were so obvious that sufficient opposition was generated leading to the ultimate; closure. This closure was not so much for linguistic reasons but more because of the violations against Wikipedia principles like NPOV.
When the language committee started, all the existing projects were not what it should or could consider. There are existing projects that are problematic for all kinds of reasons. As it is not the remit of the LC, I have argued on several occasions for a global arbitration committee. I see this as a place where problems with projects themselves can be addressed. As it is each language project is independent and decides on its own policies, we have situations where people find that they are not willing to accept this independence for all kinds of reasons. Not having a way to channel and address this is in my opinion bad as it leads to nasty situations.
Thanks, GerardM
On Jan 4, 2008 1:50 PM, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
On 04/01/2008, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
I want to propose that the Allemanic Wikipedia is renamed to gsw.wikipedia.org and thereby associate the language with the correct ISO-639 code.
(I am not making any comment on whether or not to rename)
Regarding duplicate-assigned language codes - how did we get to this? I was under the impression that all our currently-existing language codes were either the correct ISO-639, or given deliberately "invalid" codes so as not to conflict with the standard ones.
Given that that is apparently not the case :-) - do we know how many other "duplicate" codes are kicking around in our projects, and would it be worth looking into renaming these sooner rather later? Any rename is tough, but the earlier it's done the less upheaval there is for everyone.
On a more practical note - if this rename is done, I note there are the best part of 3,500 articles on als.wp, and presumably they have a proportionate audience. How are we planning to handle the changeover? Making 3,500 valid URLs dead links doesn't seem productive; is there any way we can put soft redirects into the new als.wp so as to point to articles in gsw.wp? There probably won't be *too* much conflict for article names, at least not for the forseeable future.
Or a general sitenotice on the new als.wp, in Allemanic, directing people to gsw.wp, remaining up for six months or a year? Neither of these need to be particularly blatant, and won't impact the new project much, whilst still helping those who follow links to als.wp looking for Allemanic.
--
- Andrew Gray
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
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This strange Ethnologue... What is Albanian? What is Ghegh? What is Tosk?
Standard Albanian seems to be a "revised form of Tosk", in any case a written Tosk.
Will we have a Wikipedia written in Tosk? I don't think so. Will we have a spoken Wikipedia in Tosk? I don't think so.
If you read in detail Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=als) you can see some confusion: "Language use -> Official language. It is used in schools." I know that Albanian is the official language of Albania and not the Tosk. Is there some little usual confusion of Ethnologue?
Il could be a misundersting but about the Gheg (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aln) I can read: "Language use -> Official regional language in Kossovo. Vigorous. Books are published in Gheg. Restrictions on Albanian at Kossovo's university since 1990."
It's not a misunderstanding for Ethnologue Albanian=Tosk. But the ISO code are generated without any consideration and we have magically als for Tosk and sqi for Albanian. I am a little bit confused: the official language of Albania is it the Tosk or the Albanian, or the two languages are the same language?
IMHO sqi=als and Albanian Wikipedia is sufficient to include Tosk.
Ilario
On Jan 4, 2008 11:48 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Currently the Allemannic Wikipedia is known under the name als.wikipedia.org. This code is wrong as the code is reserved for Tosk, the main Albanian language. We are about to give Gheg, another Albanian language conditional approval. As it will be hard to explain to some why we give Tosk conditional approval, it is decidedly awkward that Allemanic is using the wrong code.
I want to propose that the Allemanic Wikipedia is renamed to gsw.wikipedia.org and thereby associate the language with the correct ISO-639 code. The rename is opposed by people in the Allemanic Wikipedia because they do not agree with how their language is perceived. However, gswhttp://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gswhas Alemannisch as a synonym for Schwyzerdütsch and it is therefore obvious that the same language is meant.
Given that there was no contention in the language committee, the request for a Gheg Wikipedia is given conditional approval.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hoi, If you want to know what Ethnologue has to say about Albanian read http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=sqi The process that came to differentiate Albanian into a macro language and its four languages is formal and public. Thanks, GerardM
On Jan 4, 2008 3:04 PM, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
This strange Ethnologue... What is Albanian? What is Ghegh? What is Tosk?
Standard Albanian seems to be a "revised form of Tosk", in any case a written Tosk.
Will we have a Wikipedia written in Tosk? I don't think so. Will we have a spoken Wikipedia in Tosk? I don't think so.
If you read in detail Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=als) you can see some confusion: "Language use -> Official language. It is used in schools." I know that Albanian is the official language of Albania and not the Tosk. Is there some little usual confusion of Ethnologue?
Il could be a misundersting but about the Gheg (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aln) I can read: "Language use -> Official regional language in Kossovo. Vigorous. Books are published in Gheg. Restrictions on Albanian at Kossovo's university since 1990."
It's not a misunderstanding for Ethnologue Albanian=Tosk. But the ISO code are generated without any consideration and we have magically als for Tosk and sqi for Albanian. I am a little bit confused: the official language of Albania is it the Tosk or the Albanian, or the two languages are the same language?
IMHO sqi=als and Albanian Wikipedia is sufficient to include Tosk.
Ilario
On Jan 4, 2008 11:48 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Currently the Allemannic Wikipedia is known under the name
als.wikipedia.org.
This code is wrong as the code is reserved for Tosk, the main Albanian language. We are about to give Gheg, another Albanian language
conditional
approval. As it will be hard to explain to some why we give Tosk
conditional
approval, it is decidedly awkward that Allemanic is using the wrong
code.
I want to propose that the Allemanic Wikipedia is renamed to gsw.wikipedia.org and thereby associate the language with the correct ISO-639 code. The rename is opposed by people in the Allemanic Wikipedia because they do not agree with how their language is perceived. However, gswhttp://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gswhas Alemannisch as a synonym for Schwyzerdütsch and it is therefore obvious that the same language is meant.
Given that there was no contention in the language committee, the
request
for a Gheg Wikipedia is given conditional approval.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I agree and in this case read the page: http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#M
At point 1 you can read: "There is one variety that is more developed and that tends to be used for wider communication..." At point 2 you can read: "There is a common written form used for multiple closely-related languages" The point 3 is not applicable to Albanian
The use of "metalanguage" is another forcing mode to justify some cohabitations of languages.
The Albanian is a *written* language to use instead of:
* Arbëreshë Albanian [aae] * Arvanitika Albanian [aat] * Gheg Albanian [aln] * Tosk Albanian [als]
but in any case points 1 and 2 are not fully appliable because these three languages are not "closely-related" (point 2) and Gheg seems to become a written language in Kossovo, for example.
In any case Tosk speakers will use Albanian to write, Gheg is becoming a written language (and probably it will have an indipendent evolution with an increase of written uses), Arvanitika or Arbëreshë speakers probably have a spoken language so different from Tosk that they will look for a different written way or in any case for a different dictionary.
IMHO the differentiation between Tosk and Albanian will drive the Wikipedia's communities to ask for an integration in the future because the differences are not much.
In any case I agree that the rule for the DNS name must be well defined. If any Wikipedia has got this denomination: http:// + ISO code+ wikipedia.org, there is not a justification for a different way.
Ilario
On Jan 4, 2008 4:17 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, If you want to know what Ethnologue has to say about Albanian read http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=sqi The process that came to differentiate Albanian into a macro language and its four languages is formal and public. Thanks, GerardM
On Jan 4, 2008 3:04 PM, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
This strange Ethnologue... What is Albanian? What is Ghegh? What is Tosk?
Standard Albanian seems to be a "revised form of Tosk", in any case a written Tosk.
Will we have a Wikipedia written in Tosk? I don't think so. Will we have a spoken Wikipedia in Tosk? I don't think so.
If you read in detail Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=als) you can see some confusion: "Language use -> Official language. It is used in schools." I know that Albanian is the official language of Albania and not the Tosk. Is there some little usual confusion of Ethnologue?
Il could be a misundersting but about the Gheg (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aln) I can read: "Language use -> Official regional language in Kossovo. Vigorous. Books are published in Gheg. Restrictions on Albanian at Kossovo's university since 1990."
It's not a misunderstanding for Ethnologue Albanian=Tosk. But the ISO code are generated without any consideration and we have magically als for Tosk and sqi for Albanian. I am a little bit confused: the official language of Albania is it the Tosk or the Albanian, or the two languages are the same language?
IMHO sqi=als and Albanian Wikipedia is sufficient to include Tosk.
Ilario
On Jan 4, 2008 11:48 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Currently the Allemannic Wikipedia is known under the name
als.wikipedia.org.
This code is wrong as the code is reserved for Tosk, the main Albanian language. We are about to give Gheg, another Albanian language
conditional
approval. As it will be hard to explain to some why we give Tosk
conditional
approval, it is decidedly awkward that Allemanic is using the wrong
code.
I want to propose that the Allemanic Wikipedia is renamed to gsw.wikipedia.org and thereby associate the language with the correct ISO-639 code. The rename is opposed by people in the Allemanic Wikipedia because they do not agree with how their language is perceived. However, gswhttp://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gswhas Alemannisch as a synonym for Schwyzerdütsch and it is therefore obvious that the same language is meant.
Given that there was no contention in the language committee, the
request
for a Gheg Wikipedia is given conditional approval.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Ilario Valdelli wrote:
This strange Ethnologue... What is Albanian? What is Ghegh? What is Tosk?
If you read in detail Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=als) you can see some confusion: "Language use -> Official language. It is used in schools." I know that Albanian is the official language of Albania and not the Tosk. Is there some little usual confusion of Ethnologue?
And I don't know why is Ethnologue given so much credence. Whenever I look up anything I know about in it, it is completely wrong.
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