Hey all,
During Wikimania's Q&A panel, the Board lamented that, as always, they did not have enough time to answer all the questions from the audience and posted beforehand on-wiki. They did say they were accessible to follow up with on unanswered questions though, so I am taking this opportunity to start an open thread.
The question I am personally interested in, I posted on the Wikimania wiki page,[1] and it's...
"The 2013-14 Annual Plan allocates 40% of the Wikimedia Foundation budget and 59% of the staffing to engineering and product development. However, it seems that few of Board members have professional expertise in theses areas (compared to previous years and in general). Does the Board feel it has the necessary expertise to lead the Foundation in this area? Would the Board consider recruiting expert seats with more experience in engineering and product development?"
There are several other excellent questions posted on-wiki as well. I know people are still traveling and likely jet-lagged even if they're home, so I am in no huge hurry to get an answer. Thanks to the Board in advance. :-)
On Aug 15, 2013 4:53 AM, "Steven Walling" swalling@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
During Wikimania's Q&A panel, the Board lamented that, as always, they did not have enough time to answer all the questions from the audience and posted beforehand on-wiki. They did say they were accessible to follow up with on unanswered questions though, so I am taking this opportunity to start an open thread.
The question I am personally interested in, I posted on the Wikimania wiki page,[1] and it's...
"The 2013-14 Annual Plan allocates 40% of the Wikimedia Foundation budget and 59% of the staffing to engineering and product development. However, it seems that few of Board members have professional expertise in theses areas (compared to previous years and in general). Does the Board feel it has the necessary expertise to lead the Foundation in this area? Would the Board consider recruiting expert seats with more experience in engineering and product development?"
Thanks Steven!
Answering for myself (and only myself) I am in two minds about this question. On the one hand, yes, of course engineering is a core activity for us - well over half, as you point out - and I wish it was an area that was better represented on the board. I do think we should pay attention to that when recruiting expert seats, and I do also wish our own dev community was better represented in (all kinds of) governance.
On the other hand, I think the main contribution that recruiting for this would likely bring is helping the board stay more focused on tech. No one person is going to be able to instantly understand all our projects -- someone with a managerial background at another shop would have to rethink their assumptions, as chances are excellent that whatever products they'd worked on, they won't be as multilingual or community focused as ours. And someone from our own tech community would have the same challenge all of our community trustees do, of having to relearn their relationship to Wikimedia and balance many competing interests. So while yes, I think as a board we should pay more attention to our overall technical landscape, I think that we can push ourselves to do this at a governance level without having individual specific hands-on expertise (similarly, just because Kat's now left the board doesn't mean we're going to stop getting legal updates and making that area as a priority). For instance, Erik's been giving some very helpful visual editor updates to the board recently, similar to his public emails; I hope that kind of ongoing update will help both the board & senior staff reflect on and plan our activities.
So I'd like to back up a little bit and ask you and the community at large, and especially the engineering community, what we need to solve for. What challenges aren't we meeting? What strategic questions should we tackle? What philosophical and/or strategic support does the tech community want to see from the board?
For instance: in the past we've set our highest-level priority at Wikimedia as recruiting and keeping more editors, which has led pretty directly to things like E3, mobile editing, and the visual editor being prioritized. But of course there's a lot of other engineering & product areas to think about, everything from building features for existing editors to disaster planning in ops to supporting the staff + volunteer dev community (I'm quite pleased, incidentally, to see new 3rd-party mediawiki projects; that's been a gap for a long time).
And lastly of course what's been on everyone's mind lately is we must continue to try to figure out the best way to develop and roll out products in our complex, opinionated, multilingual community. To be frank, I don't know what the the best role for the board is in this process. I try to be careful about keeping my public comments to a minimum when tech debates are raging, as I think all the trustees do, because it's usually just not helpful to randomly weigh in. Does that mean developers feel unsupported by the board? That would be an unfortunate side effect of trying not to overstep our role...
best,
Phoebe
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 2:22 AM, Steven Walling swalling@wikimedia.orgwrote:
Hey all,
During Wikimania's Q&A panel, the Board lamented that, as always, they did not have enough time to answer all the questions from the audience and posted beforehand on-wiki. They did say they were accessible to follow up with on unanswered questions though, so I am taking this opportunity to start an open thread.
The question I am personally interested in, I posted on the Wikimania wiki page,[1] and it's...
"The 2013-14 Annual Plan allocates 40% of the Wikimedia Foundation budget and 59% of the staffing to engineering and product development. However, it seems that few of Board members have professional expertise in theses areas (compared to previous years and in general). Does the Board feel it has the necessary expertise to lead the Foundation in this area? Would the Board consider recruiting expert seats with more experience in engineering and product development?"
Dear Steven,
This is a good question and I largely agree with Phoebe. In June 2012, the then board did an exercise where we tried to identify missing board skills.
As part of the Board Governance Committee's aim of increasing board transparency while retaining the privacy that we need to carry out our work effectively, this has now been posted at: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_skills_matrix_2012
Keep in mind that this is a year old. Even so, hope it provides some overall context and a few indirect glimmers into answering the question that you posed.
Needless to say, a similar matrix done now may yield somewhat different results.
Best Bishakha
phoebe ayers, 15/08/2013 12:26:
And lastly of course what's been on everyone's mind lately is we must continue to try to figure out the best way to develop and roll out products in our complex, opinionated, multilingual community. To be frank, I don't know what the the best role for the board is in this process. I try to be careful about keeping my public comments to a minimum when tech debates are raging, as I think all the trustees do, because it's usually just not helpful to randomly weigh in. Does that mean developers feel unsupported by the board? That would be an unfortunate side effect of trying not to overstep our role...
From a Wikimedia projects point of view, what I'd rather like to know is how the annual plan ends up containing some specific technical goals/products. This is for sure something under the board's responsibility as the board approves the plan, however – just we don't know absolutely anything in general on how the annual plan is produced and why it is as it is – it's not clear who proposes, who reviews and who actually decides what ends up in the plan, not to speak of the rationale. Does the board have any role in shaping the engineering goals as defined by the annual plan, apart from the final rubberstamping in a yes/no vote following some two weeks of discussion out of several months of mysterious drafting?
Neom
P.s.: Generic questions to the board on this list are usually ignored/missed, unless [sometimes] when they are in reply to something posted on behalf of the board; in theory I guess the place for such public questions would be https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/BN which offers some permanency, but has never been really used yet.
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 2:17 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.comwrote:
phoebe ayers, 15/08/2013 12:26:
And lastly of course what's been on everyone's mind lately is we must
continue to try to figure out the best way to develop and roll out products in our complex, opinionated, multilingual community. To be frank, I don't know what the the best role for the board is in this process. I try to be careful about keeping my public comments to a minimum when tech debates are raging, as I think all the trustees do, because it's usually just not helpful to randomly weigh in. Does that mean developers feel unsupported by the board? That would be an unfortunate side effect of trying not to overstep our role...
From a Wikimedia projects point of view, what I'd rather like to know is how the annual plan ends up containing some specific technical goals/products. This is for sure something under the board's responsibility as the board approves the plan, however – just we don't know absolutely anything in general on how the annual plan is produced and why it is as it is – it's not clear who proposes, who reviews and who actually decides what ends up in the plan, not to speak of the rationale. Does the board have any role in shaping the engineering goals as defined by the annual plan, apart from the final rubberstamping in a yes/no vote following some two weeks of discussion out of several months of mysterious drafting?
Hey, I'm hoping another trustee will jump in here since I wasn't involved with the last annual plan (thanks to my gap year off the board). But it's a good question. In general: the specific plan activities are written by the staff; the board's influence is more on the level of approving the overall balance and resourcing to different activities/goals (like how much do we focus on product development vs. other development, etc.) And, the board needs to see that the big issues (editor retention/keeping the sites up/etc) are being addressed -- but how that happens is something we generally leave to the staff's expertise.
-- phoebe
P.s.: Generic questions to the board on this list are usually ignored/missed, unless [sometimes] when they are in reply to something posted on behalf of the board; in theory I guess the place for such public questions would be https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/BN which offers some permanency, but has never been really used yet.
Well, threads like this are fine; this came out of the Wikimania questions, as Steven noted. We can certainly try to revive the board noticeboard too!
On 08/14/2013 01:52 PM, Steven Walling wrote:
Would the Board consider recruiting expert seats with more experience in engineering and product development?"
With or without expert seats, I believe the whole tech planning process would improve if our tech volunteers (tech ambassadors?) would be more involved since the beginning. This might mean a longer discussion, but also more transparent and with a better community backing since the beginning.
Moving some discussions early in the planning process might save a lot more time and energy discussing months later, when prototypes and betas start to show up. And by that time it could be the own tech ambassadors the ones defending the plan they helped build.
Opinions are mine, etc.
phoebe ayers, 17/08/2013 17:49:
P.s.: Generic questions to the board on this list are usually ignored/missed, unless [sometimes] when they are in reply to something posted on behalf of the board; in theory I guess the place for such public questions would be https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/BN which offers some permanency, but has never been really used yet.Well, threads like this are fine; this came out of the Wikimania questions, as Steven noted. We can certainly try to revive the board noticeboard too!
As a way to revive it, any trustee can pick an unanswered question from the Wikimania wiki page and answer it there without polluting their email. ;)
Nemo
Hi,
Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook, Samsung, Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
"Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders, nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to bring the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t have it".[1, 2]
Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to collaborate with this?
Any comments?
Best regards,
- Teemu
[1] http://www.internet.org [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-low...
-------------------------------------------------- Teemu Leinonen http://www2.uiah.fi/~tleinone/ +358 50 351 6796 Media Lab http://mlab.uiah.fi Aalto University School of Arts, Design and Architecture --------------------------------------------------
I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to the Internet.
More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried to do 15 years ago.
... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access to the Internet.
So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI
Emmanuel
Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :
Hi,
Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook, Samsung, Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
"Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders, nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to bring the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t have it".[1, 2]
Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to collaborate with this?
Any comments?
Best regards,
- Teemu
[1] http://www.internet.org [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-low...
Emmanuel,
I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now. Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be involved?
--Kul
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Emmanuel Engelhart kelson@kiwix.orgwrote:
I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to the Internet.
More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried to do 15 years ago.
... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access to the Internet.
So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI
Emmanuel
Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :
Hi,
Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook, Samsung,
Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
"Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders,
nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to bring the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t have it".[1, 2]
Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to collaborate
with this?
Any comments?
Best regards,
- Teemu[1] http://www.internet.org [2]
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-low...
-- Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
- Web: http://www.kiwix.org
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
- more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi,
All we need to do is what we already do: make our content available for free. When we are really in their face that we bring neutral information to everyone, everywhere how and why will they deny us?
Thanks, GerardM
On 23 August 2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa kwadhwa@wikimedia.org wrote:
Emmanuel,
I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now. Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be involved?
--Kul
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Emmanuel Engelhart <kelson@kiwix.org
wrote:
I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to the Internet.
More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried to do 15 years ago.
... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access to the Internet.
So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI
Emmanuel
Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :
Hi,
Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook, Samsung,
Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
"Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders,
nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to
bring
the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t
have
it".[1, 2]
Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to collaborate
with this?
Any comments?
Best regards,
- Teemu[1] http://www.internet.org [2]
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-low...
-- Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
- Web: http://www.kiwix.org
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
- more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Kul Wadhwa Head of Mobile Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I would suggest to keep distance to this wannabe-NGO which more or less only exists to serve the interests of commercial players which mostly do * not* stand for a free and open web.
internet.org is nothing what will serve the ideas and ideals of an internet as it is represented also by Wikimedia. Don't believe the hype.
Best regards
Jens Best
2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi,
All we need to do is what we already do: make our content available for free. When we are really in their face that we bring neutral information to everyone, everywhere how and why will they deny us?
Thanks, GerardM
On 23 August 2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa kwadhwa@wikimedia.org wrote:
Emmanuel,
I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now. Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be involved?
--Kul
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Emmanuel Engelhart <kelson@kiwix.org
wrote:
I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to
the
Internet.
More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried to do 15 years ago.
... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access
to
the Internet.
So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI
Emmanuel
Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :
Hi,
Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook,
Samsung,
Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
"Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders,
nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to
bring
the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t
have
it".[1, 2]
Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to
collaborate
with this?
Any comments?
Best regards,
- Teemu[1] http://www.internet.org [2]
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-low...
-- Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
- Web: http://www.kiwix.org
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
- more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Kul Wadhwa Head of Mobile Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On 23 August 2013 10:28, Jens Best jens.best@wikimedia.de wrote:
I would suggest to keep distance to this wannabe-NGO which more or less only exists to serve the interests of commercial players which mostly do * not* stand for a free and open web. internet.org is nothing what will serve the ideas and ideals of an internet as it is represented also by Wikimedia. Don't believe the hype.
I concur. Dig this: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/13/08/what-internetorgs-stirri...
Whatever these people are doing doesn't actually appear to be much to do with what we're doing.
- d.
Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now. Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be involved?
If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement joins such a dishonest project.
If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a dilemma. A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical move) and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such situations ;)
If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet... then this is really a dream we should be part of!
But, this is all about speculations...
I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my hears. But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects. That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they will make the next moves.
Emmanuel
Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel, they don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So, actually, Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their next moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with whom they really cooperate.
It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web between Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because they use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
Jens
2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart kelson@kiwix.org
Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now. Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be involved?
If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement joins such a dishonest project.
If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a dilemma. A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical move) and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such situations ;)
If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet... then this is really a dream we should be part of!
But, this is all about speculations...
I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my hears. But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects. That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they will make the next moves.
Emmanuel
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
- Web: http://www.kiwix.org
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
- more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be seen by many more people, they do us a service.
In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of all about getting the knowledge out there. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best jens.best@wikimedia.de wrote:
Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel, they don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So, actually, Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their next moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with whom they really cooperate.
It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web between Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because they use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
Jens
2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart kelson@kiwix.org
Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now. Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be involved?
If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement joins such a dishonest project.
If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a dilemma. A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical move) and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such situations ;)
If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet... then this is really a dream we should be part of!
But, this is all about speculations...
I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my hears. But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects. That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they will make the next moves.
Emmanuel
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
- Web: http://www.kiwix.org
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
- more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
--
Jens Best Präsidium Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. web: http://www.wikimedia.de mail: jens.best http://goog_17221883@wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.
2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be seen by many more people, they do us a service.
In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of all about getting the knowledge out there. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best jens.best@wikimedia.de wrote:
Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel, they don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
actually,
Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their next moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with
whom
they really cooperate.
It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web between Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because
they
use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
Jens
2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart kelson@kiwix.org
Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for
now.
Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to
be
involved?
If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement
joins
such a dishonest project.
If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
dilemma.
A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical
move)
and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such situations ;)
If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet...
then
this is really a dream we should be part of!
But, this is all about speculations...
I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
hears.
But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects. That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they will make the next moves.
Emmanuel
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
- Web: http://www.kiwix.org
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
- more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
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Jens Best Präsidium Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. web: http://www.wikimedia.de mail: jens.best http://goog_17221883@wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hoi, For your information ... an interview with Mr Zuggerberg... In my opinion there is an opportunity as he is looking for dense information.. we are really good at that :) Thanks, Gerard
http://www.wired.com/business/2013/08/mark-zuckerberg-internet-org/
On 23 August 2013 14:38, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada emijrp@gmail.comwrote:
Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.
2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be
seen
by many more people, they do us a service.
In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of
all
about getting the knowledge out there. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best jens.best@wikimedia.de wrote:
Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel,
they
don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
actually,
Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their
next
moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with
whom
they really cooperate.
It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web
between
Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because
they
use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
Jens
2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart kelson@kiwix.org
Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for
now.
Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how
would
internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort
to
be
involved?
If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement
joins
such a dishonest project.
If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and
adapt
their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
dilemma.
A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical
move)
and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have
done
it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in
such
situations ;)
If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet...
then
this is really a dream we should be part of!
But, this is all about speculations...
I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
hears.
But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects. That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction
they
will make the next moves.
Emmanuel
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
- Web: http://www.kiwix.org
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
- more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
--
Jens Best Präsidium Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. web: http://www.wikimedia.de mail: jens.best http://goog_17221883@wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hear, hear. Ziko
2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be seen by many more people, they do us a service.
The internet Mr. Zuggerberg wants was nothing to do with the ideas of free knowledge, online collaboration and open source as it is provided and promoted by Wikimedia.
Don't believe the Hype. Even and especially if it is Hype 2.0.
Just because the Silicon Valley billionaires got caught with sleeping with the NSA suddenly they push an "open internet for the world"-Idea to distract everybody from the dark roots.
Wikimedia should stay far away from this crowd and its "initiatives". Maybe in the future we should even get more distance between them (Facebook, Google, etc.) and us.
Jens
2013/8/26 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, For your information ... an interview with Mr Zuggerberg... In my opinion there is an opportunity as he is looking for dense information.. we are really good at that :) Thanks, Gerard
http://www.wired.com/business/2013/08/mark-zuckerberg-internet-org/
On 23 August 2013 14:38, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada <emijrp@gmail.com
wrote:
Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.
2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be
seen
by many more people, they do us a service.
In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of
all
about getting the knowledge out there. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best jens.best@wikimedia.de wrote:
Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel,
they
don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
actually,
Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their
next
moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with
whom
they really cooperate.
It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web
between
Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak
of
freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because
they
use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
Jens
2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart kelson@kiwix.org
Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold
for
now.
Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how
would
internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort
to
be
involved?
If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement
joins
such a dishonest project.
If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and
adapt
their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
dilemma.
A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical
move)
and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have
done
it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in
such
situations ;)
If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet...
then
this is really a dream we should be part of!
But, this is all about speculations...
I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
hears.
But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete
projects.
That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction
they
will make the next moves.
Emmanuel
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
- Web: http://www.kiwix.org
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
- more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
--
Jens Best Präsidium Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. web: http://www.wikimedia.de mail: jens.best http://goog_17221883@wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Hoi, Jens, I am sorry there is nothing in what you say that has a bearing on what the aim is of the Wikimedia Foundation. Our aim is to get information/knowledge to every person in the world. The people that may be reached by this initiative are the ones we do not reach.
When we can reach them through something like a Wikipedia ZERO approach, this would be awesome never mind if Facebook et al make money out of it. The NSA et al have a reach that includes us all. Nothing is likely to change at that. It is however beside the point. The point is that we may reach more people and consequently do a better job at what our aim is. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 August 2013 23:58, Jens Best jens.best@wikimedia.de wrote:
The internet Mr. Zuggerberg wants was nothing to do with the ideas of free knowledge, online collaboration and open source as it is provided and promoted by Wikimedia.
Don't believe the Hype. Even and especially if it is Hype 2.0.
Just because the Silicon Valley billionaires got caught with sleeping with the NSA suddenly they push an "open internet for the world"-Idea to distract everybody from the dark roots.
Wikimedia should stay far away from this crowd and its "initiatives". Maybe in the future we should even get more distance between them (Facebook, Google, etc.) and us.
Jens
2013/8/26 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, For your information ... an interview with Mr Zuggerberg... In my opinion there is an opportunity as he is looking for dense information.. we are really good at that :) Thanks, Gerard
http://www.wired.com/business/2013/08/mark-zuckerberg-internet-org/
On 23 August 2013 14:38, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada <emijrp@gmail.com
wrote:
Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.
2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to
be
seen
by many more people, they do us a service.
In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first
of
all
about getting the knowledge out there. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best jens.best@wikimedia.de wrote:
Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel,
they
don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
actually,
Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make
their
next
moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and
with
whom
they really cooperate.
It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web
between
Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they
speak
of
freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just
because
they
use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
Jens
2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart kelson@kiwix.org
Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit : > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold
for
now.
> Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how
would
> internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and
effort
to
be
> involved?
If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our
movement
joins
such a dishonest project.
If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and
adapt
their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
dilemma.
A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content
(tactical
move)
and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already
have
done
it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic
in
such
situations ;)
If they really want to help to give a neutral access to
internet...
then
this is really a dream we should be part of!
But, this is all about speculations...
I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
hears.
But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete
projects.
That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction
they
will make the next moves.
Emmanuel
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
- Web: http://www.kiwix.org
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
- more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
--
Jens Best Präsidium Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. web: http://www.wikimedia.de mail: jens.best http://goog_17221883@wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Jens Best Präsidium Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. web: http://www.wikimedia.de mail: jens.best http://goog_17221883@wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hei,
I kind of sympathize with Jens' points. Mr. Zuckerberg, and especially Facebook as a business, are not necessary in a perfect synchrony with the mission and vision of the Wikimedia / Wikipedia movement. Even if this is the case we may ask does it still make sense for us to collaborate with their initiative? Would it advantage our very own mission and vision?
I also think that we are all people, also Mr. Zuckerberg, and people have different sides. I interpret that in the internet.org a group of *people*, working for big corporations, have seen a possibility to do something *good* that is same time in the interests of their businesses. I think we often forget that also in big corporation there are people, individuals who do choices. I do not see in here any hidden agendas or wrong doing. I see people trying to do something good.
Like GerardM pointed out, the internet.org may help us to get knowledge for people who otherwise would not have access to the Wikipedia. I do not see that this would move us somehow to the "dark side", especially when the *people* in the internet.org are not necessary evil.
With the fact that the Wikimedia foundation is financially sustainable, we also have a great position to negotiate with the internet.org people. I actually think that they need more Wikimedia / Wikipedia than we need them. Still, I think collaboration with them could advance our mission.
Best regards,
- Teemu
On 27.8.2013, at 9.32, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Jens, I am sorry there is nothing in what you say that has a bearing on what the aim is of the Wikimedia Foundation. Our aim is to get information/knowledge to every person in the world. The people that may be reached by this initiative are the ones we do not reach.
When we can reach them through something like a Wikipedia ZERO approach, this would be awesome never mind if Facebook et al make money out of it. The NSA et al have a reach that includes us all. Nothing is likely to change at that. It is however beside the point. The point is that we may reach more people and consequently do a better job at what our aim is. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 August 2013 23:58, Jens Best jens.best@wikimedia.de wrote:
The internet Mr. Zuggerberg wants was nothing to do with the ideas of free knowledge, online collaboration and open source as it is provided and promoted by Wikimedia.
Don't believe the Hype. Even and especially if it is Hype 2.0.
Just because the Silicon Valley billionaires got caught with sleeping with the NSA suddenly they push an "open internet for the world"-Idea to distract everybody from the dark roots.
Wikimedia should stay far away from this crowd and its "initiatives". Maybe in the future we should even get more distance between them (Facebook, Google, etc.) and us.
Jens
2013/8/26 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, For your information ... an interview with Mr Zuggerberg... In my opinion there is an opportunity as he is looking for dense information.. we are really good at that :) Thanks, Gerard
http://www.wired.com/business/2013/08/mark-zuckerberg-internet-org/
On 23 August 2013 14:38, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada <emijrp@gmail.com
wrote:
Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.
2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to
be
seen
by many more people, they do us a service.
In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first
of
all
about getting the knowledge out there. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best jens.best@wikimedia.de wrote:
Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel,
they
don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
actually,
Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make
their
next
moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and
with
whom
they really cooperate.
It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web
between
Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they
speak
of
freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just
because
they
use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
Jens
2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart kelson@kiwix.org
> Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit : >> I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold
for
now.
>> Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how
would
>> internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and
effort
to
be
>> involved? > > If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our
movement
joins
> such a dishonest project. > > If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and
adapt
> their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
dilemma.
> A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content
(tactical
move)
> and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet > (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already
have
done
> it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic
in
such
> situations ;) > > If they really want to help to give a neutral access to
internet...
then
> this is really a dream we should be part of! > > But, this is all about speculations... > > I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
hears.
> But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete
projects.
> That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction
they
> will make the next moves. > > Emmanuel > -- > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
>
--
Jens Best Präsidium Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. web: http://www.wikimedia.de mail: jens.best http://goog_17221883@wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-------------------------------------------------- Teemu Leinonen http://www2.uiah.fi/~tleinone/ +358 50 351 6796 Media Lab http://mlab.uiah.fi Aalto University School of Arts, Design and Architecture --------------------------------------------------
"Wikimedia should stay far away from this crowd and its "initiatives". Maybe in the future we should even get more distance between them (Facebook, Google, etc.) and us."
And how that would bring us closer to our vision to have all humans have access to knowledge?
JP Béland
(personal capacity)
Also, how would this be *done*? I mean, our current interaction with Facebook, to my knowledge, consists of "they retrieve our data". They're free to do so; it's CC-BY-SA. The only realistic way of restricting them would have pretty serious implications for other reusers.
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org