Hello everyone. Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for Wikimedia Italia. The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important points.
In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy in September. We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to run in September, and it has been like that for years. Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed for several days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went live just for the last days. It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September. This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the history, and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters of communication. We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before the beginning of WLM. We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive conversation and negotiation. The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just better than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days in the middle of September. Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not mean that we are happy about what is happening. Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected results for WLM in 2015.
Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear negative impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia. This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of Italian photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of Museums), the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but because we have higher stakes.
This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting as WMIT.
Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond being a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of monuments.
Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments, even if copyright has expired. We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For. Every. Monument. We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no official list of monuments in Italy.
There is *extensive* documentation here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats: http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the reason why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In 2014 alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number of photos.
The global fundraising is essential to our movement. It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki Loves Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other sources). The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but, for this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very activities it is meant to support. Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a small library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of pictures to the Wikimedia projects. We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it is done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to build and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all the people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to the movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising team is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be confident that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in the future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more collaboratively. We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF and all other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the Wikimedia movement.
We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us opinions and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would like to see it become wider and bigger.
Andrea Zanni for the board of Wikimedia Italia
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot and should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a simple technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for WLM and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones i could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we as movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is better to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everyone. Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for Wikimedia Italia. The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important points.
In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy in September. We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to run in September, and it has been like that for years. Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed for several days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went live just for the last days. It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September. This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the history, and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters of communication. We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before the beginning of WLM. We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive conversation and negotiation. The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just better than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days in the middle of September. Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not mean that we are happy about what is happening. Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected results for WLM in 2015.
Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear negative impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia. This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of Italian photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of Museums), the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but because we have higher stakes.
This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting as WMIT.
Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond being a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of monuments.
Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments, even if copyright has expired. We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For. Every. Monument. We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no official list of monuments in Italy.
There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats: http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the reason why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In 2014 alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number of photos.
The global fundraising is essential to our movement. It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki Loves Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other sources). The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but, for this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very activities it is meant to support. Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a small library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of pictures to the Wikimedia projects. We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it is done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to build and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all the people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to the movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising team is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be confident that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in the future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more collaboratively. We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF and all other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the Wikimedia movement.
We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us opinions and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would like to see it become wider and bigger.
Andrea Zanni for the board of Wikimedia Italia _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Note also that there is an on-going discussion with the WMF Board on fundraising ethics here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discu...
Every year, readers are told that money is required to "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year" (a hangover from ten years ago, when bandwidth was indeed the main cost). At the end of the December 2014 fundraiser, donors were told in the thank-you email that "each year, just enough people donate to keep the sum of all human knowledge available for everyone".
Every year, members of the community point out here on this list that given the Foundation's present-day wealth, these phrasings are misleading and manipulative. They report feeling ashamed when friends and family ask them about the Foundation's apparent money problems:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-03-18/Op-ed
We all know that the Foundation asks for and receives more money every year:
2006-2007: $3 million 2007-2008: $5 million 2008-2009: $9 million 2009-2010: $18 million 2010-2011: $25 million 2011-2012: $38 million 2012-2013: $49 million 2013-2014: $53 million 2014-2015: $75 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation#Financial_summary
By no stretch of the imagination is it accurate to say that "each year, just enough people donate to keep the sum of human knowledge available for everyone". (This is quite apart from the fact that Facebook and many others host complete mirrors of Wikipedia, and mirrors like Wikiwand for example would JUMP at the chance of getting Wikipedia's top spot in Google. If the Foundation disappeared tomorrow, others – not least Wikipedia's volunteers – would stand in line to replace them in "keeping the sum of human knowledge available for everyone".)
What donors really have been financing is a huge organisational expansion at the Wikimedia Foundation.
WMF staff levels have skyrocketed, from a dozen in 2007 to 278 today (not counting another 100 or so paid chapter staff).
From Megan's responses on the page Liam posted a link to a few days ago:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas
and Patricio's responses at the Wikimedia Foundation board noticeboard:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discu...
it is abundantly clear that the Foundation intends to use the same approach in this year's December fundraiser. Banners observed in testing earlier this month still used the same wording, despite last year's controversy.
So, as things stand, fundraising banners and emails in December will once again tell readers that they must donate money to "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free", "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year", "keep the sum of all human knowledge available for everyone" etc., rather than telling them where the lion's share of the money actually goes. In this method of fundraising, there is no accountability to the donor.
Does the unpaid volunteer community really agree with this? Has there ever been a Request for Comment to find out?
According to the annual plan, the Foundation's revenue target for the 2015-2016 financial year is $73 million. (Note that the Foundation took several million more last year than the publicised target.)
We are now at the end of August. If we don't want to have the same fruitless conversation in December in 2015 that we had in December 2014, and the Decembers before, I suggest now is the time to do something about it.
Let's do our best to ensure that this year's main fundraiser will be an honest one, consistent with the letter and spirit of the fundraising principles: open, honest and transparent about the Foundation's finances, and what it has done and will do with donors' money.
This is what ethical charities do.
I would suggest that Lila's introduction to the 2015/2016 plan would be a good place to begin:
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/2015-2016_Annual_Plan#Lila.27s_Foreword
The tens of millions of dollars the Foundation aims to collect this financial year can potentially do a lot of good. But shouldn't we try to make sure they're not collected under false pretences? You can't build anything of lasting value on a rotten foundation.
Andreas
On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:35 PM, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com wrote:
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot and should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a simple technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for WLM and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones i could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we as movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is better to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everyone. Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for Wikimedia Italia. The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important points.
In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy in September. We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known
to
run in September, and it has been like that for years. Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed for
several
days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
live
just for the last days. It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September. This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
history,
and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters of communication. We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before the beginning of WLM. We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive conversation and negotiation. The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
better
than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days
in
the middle of September. Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not mean that we are happy about what is happening. Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
results
for WLM in 2015.
Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
negative
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia. This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
Italian
photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
Museums),
the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but because we have higher stakes.
This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting as WMIT.
Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
being
a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
monuments.
Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments, even if copyright has expired. We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For. Every. Monument. We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no official list of monuments in Italy.
There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats: http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
reason
why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
2014
alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number of photos.
The global fundraising is essential to our movement. It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki Loves Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
sources).
The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but,
for
this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very activities it is meant to support. Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a small library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of pictures to the Wikimedia projects. We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it is done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to build and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all the people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to
the
movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
team
is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
confident
that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in the future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more collaboratively. We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF and
all
other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the Wikimedia movement.
We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
opinions
and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would like to see it become wider and bigger.
Andrea Zanni for the board of Wikimedia Italia _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other stuff, but not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor important than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com; me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org; wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot and should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a simple technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for WLM and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones i could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we as movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is better to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everyone. Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for Wikimedia Italia. The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important points.
In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy in September. We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to run in September, and it has been like that for years. Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed for several days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went live just for the last days. It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September. This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the history, and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters of communication. We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before the beginning of WLM. We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive conversation and negotiation. The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just better than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days in the middle of September. Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not mean that we are happy about what is happening. Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected results for WLM in 2015.
Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear negative impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia. This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of Italian photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of Museums), the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but because we have higher stakes.
This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting as WMIT.
Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond being a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of monuments.
Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments, even if copyright has expired. We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For. Every. Monument. We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no official list of monuments in Italy.
There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats: http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the reason why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In 2014 alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number of photos.
The global fundraising is essential to our movement. It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki Loves Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other sources). The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but, for this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very activities it is meant to support. Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a small library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of pictures to the Wikimedia projects. We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it is done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to build and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all the people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to the movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising team is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be confident that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in the future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more collaboratively. We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF and all other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the Wikimedia movement.
We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us opinions and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would like to see it become wider and bigger.
Andrea Zanni for the board of Wikimedia Italia _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Please let us not mingle two very separate and delicate discussions: 1) Whether we should do the extra effort of fundraising at all (this is what Andreas was arguing about, it seems) 2) If we decide to fundraise, how to involve the community and affiliates in a timely, orderly and effective fashion
While we can have lots of discussions about the first question, I think most people here will agree that there is a lot of improvement possible on the second. And the second question is equally valid for several other departments of course...
Communicate early, communicate often, and communicate in a two-way fashion.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
Note also that there is an on-going discussion with the WMF Board on fundraising ethics here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discu...
Every year, readers are told that money is required to "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year" (a hangover from ten years ago, when bandwidth was indeed the main cost). At the end of the December 2014 fundraiser, donors were told in the thank-you email that "each year, just enough people donate to keep the sum of all human knowledge available for everyone".
Every year, members of the community point out here on this list that given the Foundation's present-day wealth, these phrasings are misleading and manipulative. They report feeling ashamed when friends and family ask them about the Foundation's apparent money problems:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-03-18/Op-ed
We all know that the Foundation asks for and receives more money every year:
2006-2007: $3 million 2007-2008: $5 million 2008-2009: $9 million 2009-2010: $18 million 2010-2011: $25 million 2011-2012: $38 million 2012-2013: $49 million 2013-2014: $53 million 2014-2015: $75 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation#Financial_summary
By no stretch of the imagination is it accurate to say that "each year, just enough people donate to keep the sum of human knowledge available for everyone". (This is quite apart from the fact that Facebook and many others host complete mirrors of Wikipedia, and mirrors like Wikiwand for example would JUMP at the chance of getting Wikipedia's top spot in Google. If the Foundation disappeared tomorrow, others – not least Wikipedia's volunteers – would stand in line to replace them in "keeping the sum of human knowledge available for everyone".)
What donors really have been financing is a huge organisational expansion at the Wikimedia Foundation.
WMF staff levels have skyrocketed, from a dozen in 2007 to 278 today (not counting another 100 or so paid chapter staff).
From Megan's responses on the page Liam posted a link to a few days ago:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas
and Patricio's responses at the Wikimedia Foundation board noticeboard:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discu...
it is abundantly clear that the Foundation intends to use the same approach in this year's December fundraiser. Banners observed in testing earlier this month still used the same wording, despite last year's controversy.
So, as things stand, fundraising banners and emails in December will once again tell readers that they must donate money to "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free", "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year", "keep the sum of all human knowledge available for everyone" etc., rather than telling them where the lion's share of the money actually goes. In this method of fundraising, there is no accountability to the donor.
Does the unpaid volunteer community really agree with this? Has there ever been a Request for Comment to find out?
According to the annual plan, the Foundation's revenue target for the 2015-2016 financial year is $73 million. (Note that the Foundation took several million more last year than the publicised target.)
We are now at the end of August. If we don't want to have the same fruitless conversation in December in 2015 that we had in December 2014, and the Decembers before, I suggest now is the time to do something about it.
Let's do our best to ensure that this year's main fundraiser will be an honest one, consistent with the letter and spirit of the fundraising principles: open, honest and transparent about the Foundation's finances, and what it has done and will do with donors' money.
This is what ethical charities do.
I would suggest that Lila's introduction to the 2015/2016 plan would be a good place to begin:
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/2015-2016_Annual_Plan#Lila.27s_Foreword
The tens of millions of dollars the Foundation aims to collect this financial year can potentially do a lot of good. But shouldn't we try to make sure they're not collected under false pretences? You can't build anything of lasting value on a rotten foundation.
Andreas
On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:35 PM, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com wrote:
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for
WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones
i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we
as
movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everyone. Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for Wikimedia Italia. The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important points.
In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that
the
Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in
Italy
in September. We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
well-known
to
run in September, and it has been like that for years. Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed for
several
days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
live
just for the last days. It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September. This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
history,
and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so
in
the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
matters
of communication. We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
before
the beginning of WLM. We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive conversation and negotiation. The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
better
than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days
in
the middle of September. Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not mean that we are happy about what is happening. Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
results
for WLM in 2015.
Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
negative
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
Italia.
This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
uploaded
pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
Italian
photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
Museums),
the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
Italiano
(the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but because we have higher stakes.
This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting as WMIT.
Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
being
a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
monuments.
Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
monuments,
even if copyright has expired. We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
Every.
Monument. We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no official list of monuments in Italy.
There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats: http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
reason
why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
2014
alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number
of
photos.
The global fundraising is essential to our movement. It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki
Loves
Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
sources).
The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but,
for
this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very activities it is meant to support. Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
small
library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
competition
who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
pictures
to the Wikimedia projects. We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it
is
done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
build
and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all
the
people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to
the
movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
team
is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
confident
that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in
the
future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more collaboratively. We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF and
all
other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the Wikimedia movement.
We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
opinions
and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would
like
to see it become wider and bigger.
Andrea Zanni for the board of Wikimedia Italia _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it resulted in: * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we will have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week. * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page of Wikipedia * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors. * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social media fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again, what we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the amount of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki Loves Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most visitors to Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a small link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do not believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the core people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I have no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team of WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many empty promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not really get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF who are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain what Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest in the world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so friendly to explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned: * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for the movement, they have a target to make. * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a lot of weight and use it. * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner) is a balanced, reasonable and well thought one. * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something. * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not impressed by those. * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at the same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously. * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and even think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback on the proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in this matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki steinsplitter-wiki@live.com:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other stuff, but not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor important than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com;
me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org
CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for
WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones
i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we
as
movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everyone. Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for Wikimedia Italia. The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important points.
In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that
the
Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in
Italy
in September. We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
well-known to
run in September, and it has been like that for years. Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed for
several
days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
live
just for the last days. It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September. This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
history,
and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so
in
the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
matters
of communication. We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
before
the beginning of WLM. We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive conversation and negotiation. The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
better
than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
days in
the middle of September. Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not mean that we are happy about what is happening. Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
results
for WLM in 2015.
Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
negative
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
Italia.
This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
uploaded
pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
Italian
photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
Museums),
the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
Italiano
(the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but because we have higher stakes.
This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting as WMIT.
Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
being
a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
monuments.
Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
monuments,
even if copyright has expired. We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
Every.
Monument. We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no official list of monuments in Italy.
There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats: http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
reason
why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
2014
alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number
of
photos.
The global fundraising is essential to our movement. It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki
Loves
Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
sources).
The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
but, for
this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very activities it is meant to support. Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
small
library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
competition
who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
pictures
to the Wikimedia projects. We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it
is
done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
build
and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all
the
people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career
to the
movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
team
is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
confident
that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in
the
future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more collaboratively. We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF
and all
other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the Wikimedia movement.
We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
opinions
and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would
like
to see it become wider and bigger.
Andrea Zanni for the board of Wikimedia Italia _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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I think both of these issues are about community involvement, Lodewijk, or rather the lack of it. The community is simply being stonewalled, on both issues.
And to be clear, I am absolutely in favour of fundraising. I just want it done transparently, so donors understand clearly that their donations are NOT about keeping Wikipedia from blinking out of existence, but about something different altogether.
I want the Foundation to tell donors what they are doing, in concrete terms, and to tell it compellingly, so that people are *inspired* to donate, rather than guilt-tripped into it or made to donate out of fear Wikipedia might go off-line, or have to host advertisements to survive.
Having said that, I have no problem with it if someone wants to start a new thread on the latter issue.
Andreas
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Please let us not mingle two very separate and delicate discussions:
- Whether we should do the extra effort of fundraising at all (this is
what Andreas was arguing about, it seems) 2) If we decide to fundraise, how to involve the community and affiliates in a timely, orderly and effective fashion
While we can have lots of discussions about the first question, I think most people here will agree that there is a lot of improvement possible on the second. And the second question is equally valid for several other departments of course...
Communicate early, communicate often, and communicate in a two-way fashion.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
Note also that there is an on-going discussion with the WMF Board on fundraising ethics here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discu...
Every year, readers are told that money is required to "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year" (a hangover from ten years ago, when bandwidth was indeed the main cost). At the end of the December 2014 fundraiser, donors were told in the thank-you email that "each year, just enough people donate to keep the sum of all human knowledge available for everyone".
Every year, members of the community point out here on this list that
given
the Foundation's present-day wealth, these phrasings are misleading and manipulative. They report feeling ashamed when friends and family ask
them
about the Foundation's apparent money problems:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-03-18/Op-ed
We all know that the Foundation asks for and receives more money every year:
2006-2007: $3 million 2007-2008: $5 million 2008-2009: $9 million 2009-2010: $18 million 2010-2011: $25 million 2011-2012: $38 million 2012-2013: $49 million 2013-2014: $53 million 2014-2015: $75 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation#Financial_summary
By no stretch of the imagination is it accurate to say that "each year, just enough people donate to keep the sum of human knowledge available
for
everyone". (This is quite apart from the fact that Facebook and many
others
host complete mirrors of Wikipedia, and mirrors like Wikiwand for example would JUMP at the chance of getting Wikipedia's top spot in Google. If
the
Foundation disappeared tomorrow, others – not least Wikipedia's
volunteers
– would stand in line to replace them in "keeping the sum of human knowledge available for everyone".)
What donors really have been financing is a huge organisational expansion at the Wikimedia Foundation.
WMF staff levels have skyrocketed, from a dozen in 2007 to 278 today (not counting another 100 or so paid chapter staff).
From Megan's responses on the page Liam posted a link to a few days ago:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas
and Patricio's responses at the Wikimedia Foundation board noticeboard:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discu...
it is abundantly clear that the Foundation intends to use the same
approach
in this year's December fundraiser. Banners observed in testing earlier this month still used the same wording, despite last year's controversy.
So, as things stand, fundraising banners and emails in December will once again tell readers that they must donate money to "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free", "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year", "keep the sum of all human knowledge available for everyone" etc., rather than telling them where the lion's share of the money actually goes. In this method of fundraising, there is no accountability to the donor.
Does the unpaid volunteer community really agree with this? Has there
ever
been a Request for Comment to find out?
According to the annual plan, the Foundation's revenue target for the 2015-2016 financial year is $73 million. (Note that the Foundation took several million more last year than the publicised target.)
We are now at the end of August. If we don't want to have the same fruitless conversation in December in 2015 that we had in December 2014, and the Decembers before, I suggest now is the time to do something about it.
Let's do our best to ensure that this year's main fundraiser will be an honest one, consistent with the letter and spirit of the fundraising principles: open, honest and transparent about the Foundation's finances, and what it has done and will do with donors' money.
This is what ethical charities do.
I would suggest that Lila's introduction to the 2015/2016 plan would be a good place to begin:
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/2015-2016_Annual_Plan#Lila.27s_Foreword
The tens of millions of dollars the Foundation aims to collect this financial year can potentially do a lot of good. But shouldn't we try to make sure they're not collected under false pretences? You can't build anything of lasting value on a rotten foundation.
Andreas
On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:35 PM, rupert THURNER <
rupert.thurner@gmail.com>
wrote:
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for
WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered
by
the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only
ones
i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we
as
movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to
the
web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello everyone. Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for Wikimedia Italia. The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important points.
In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that
the
Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in
Italy
in September. We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
well-known
to
run in September, and it has been like that for years. Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed for
several
days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
live
just for the last days. It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September. This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
history,
and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written
so
in
the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
matters
of communication. We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in
the
middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
before
the beginning of WLM. We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive conversation and negotiation. The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
better
than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
days
in
the middle of September. Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does
not
mean that we are happy about what is happening. Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
results
for WLM in 2015.
Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
negative
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
Italia.
This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
uploaded
pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of
our
sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
Italian
photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
Museums),
the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
Italiano
(the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but because we have higher stakes.
This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting as WMIT.
Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
being
a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
monuments.
Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
monuments,
even if copyright has expired. We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
Every.
Monument. We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no official list of monuments in Italy.
There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats: http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
reason
why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
2014
alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number
of
photos.
The global fundraising is essential to our movement. It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki
Loves
Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
sources).
The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
but,
for
this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very activities it is meant to support. Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
small
library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
competition
who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
pictures
to the Wikimedia projects. We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it
is
done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
build
and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all
the
people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career
to
the
movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have
a
negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
team
is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
confident
that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in
the
future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more collaboratively. We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF
and
all
other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all
the
Wikimedia movement.
We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
opinions
and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would
like
to see it become wider and bigger.
Andrea Zanni for the board of Wikimedia Italia _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this situation. I have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September, and the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the Wikimedia movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I have set up this Request for Comment: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it resulted in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page of
Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again, what we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the amount of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki Loves Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most visitors to Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a small link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do not believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the core people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I have no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team of WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many empty promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not really get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF who are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain what Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest in the world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so friendly to explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner) is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not impressed by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at the
same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and even
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback on the proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in this matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other stuff, but not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor important than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com;
me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org
CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for
WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only
ones i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we
as
movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello everyone. Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for Wikimedia Italia. The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important points.
In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that
the
Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in
Italy
in September. We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
well-known to
run in September, and it has been like that for years. Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed for
several
days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
live
just for the last days. It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September. This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
history,
and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written
so in
the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
matters
of communication. We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in
the
middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
before
the beginning of WLM. We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive conversation and negotiation. The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
better
than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
days in
the middle of September. Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does
not
mean that we are happy about what is happening. Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
results
for WLM in 2015.
Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
negative
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
Italia.
This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
uploaded
pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
Italian
photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
Museums),
the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
Italiano
(the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but because we have higher stakes.
This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting as WMIT.
Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
being
a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
monuments.
Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
monuments,
even if copyright has expired. We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
Every.
Monument. We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no official list of monuments in Italy.
There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats: http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
reason
why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
2014
alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number
of
photos.
The global fundraising is essential to our movement. It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki
Loves
Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
sources).
The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
but, for
this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very activities it is meant to support. Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
small
library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
competition
who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
pictures
to the Wikimedia projects. We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it
is
done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
build
and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all
the
people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career
to the
movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
team
is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
confident
that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in
the
future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more collaboratively. We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF
and all
other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all
the
Wikimedia movement.
We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
opinions
and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would
like
to see it become wider and bigger.
Andrea Zanni for the board of Wikimedia Italia _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org; wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this situation. I have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September, and the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the Wikimedia movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I have set up this Request for Comment: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it resulted in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page of
Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again, what we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the amount of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki Loves Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most visitors to Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a small link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do not believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the core people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I have no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team of WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many empty promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not really get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF who are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain what Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest in the world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so friendly to explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner) is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not impressed by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at the
same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and even
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback on the proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in this matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other stuff, but not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor important than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com;
me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org
CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for
WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only
ones i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we
as
movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello everyone. Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for Wikimedia Italia. The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important points.
In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that
the
Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in
Italy
in September. We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
well-known to
run in September, and it has been like that for years. Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed for
several
days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
live
just for the last days. It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September. This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
history,
and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written
so in
the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
matters
of communication. We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in
the
middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
before
the beginning of WLM. We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive conversation and negotiation. The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
better
than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
days in
the middle of September. Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does
not
mean that we are happy about what is happening. Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
results
for WLM in 2015.
Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
negative
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
Italia.
This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
uploaded
pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
Italian
photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
Museums),
the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
Italiano
(the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but because we have higher stakes.
This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting as WMIT.
Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
being
a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
monuments.
Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
monuments,
even if copyright has expired. We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
Every.
Monument. We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no official list of monuments in Italy.
There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats: http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
reason
why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
2014
alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number
of
photos.
The global fundraising is essential to our movement. It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki
Loves
Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
sources).
The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
but, for
this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very activities it is meant to support. Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
small
library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
competition
who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
pictures
to the Wikimedia projects. We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it
is
done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
build
and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all
the
people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career
to the
movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
team
is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
confident
that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in
the
future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more collaboratively. We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF
and all
other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all
the
Wikimedia movement.
We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
opinions
and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would
like
to see it become wider and bigger.
Andrea Zanni for the board of Wikimedia Italia _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page of
Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at the
same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and even
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com;
me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org
CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to
spoil
wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
cannot
and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner
for
WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only
ones i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
if we
as
movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights
to the
web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
people
doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello everyone. Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for Wikimedia Italia. The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
points.
In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted
by
Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained
that
the
Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign
in
Italy
in September. We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
well-known to
run in September, and it has been like that for years. Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed
for
several
days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners
went
live
just for the last days. It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
history,
and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
so in
the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
matters
of communication. We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared
in
the
middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
before
the beginning of WLM. We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
conversation and negotiation. The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's
just
better
than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
days in
the middle of September. Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this
does
not
mean that we are happy about what is happening. Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
results
for WLM in 2015.
Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
negative
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
Italia.
This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
uploaded
pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front
of our
sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation
of
Italian
photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
Museums),
the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
Italiano
(the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
spends
thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money,
but
because we have higher stakes.
This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from
the
Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we
are
fighting as WMIT.
Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
beyond
being
a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
monuments.
Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
monuments,
even if copyright has expired. We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
Every.
Monument. We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is
no
official list of monuments in Italy.
There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy
stats:
http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is
the
reason
why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
2014
alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of
number
of
photos.
The global fundraising is essential to our movement. It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also
Wiki
Loves
Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
sources).
The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
but, for
this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the
very
activities it is meant to support. Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
small
library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
competition
who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
pictures
to the Wikimedia projects. We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
when it
is
done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
build
and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for
all
the
people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
career
to the
movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also
have a
negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
team
is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
confident
that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
that in
the
future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work
more
collaboratively. We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with
WMF
and all
other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of
all
the
Wikimedia movement.
We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
opinions
and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we
would
like
to see it become wider and bigger.
Andrea Zanni for the board of Wikimedia Italia _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta, while I ma in change of the banners.
How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?
Romaine
2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com:
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
is
time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page
of
Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
largest
project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to
the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
fundraising
banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
the
same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes
you
can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
even
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience
in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner,
let
the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
first
should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly
zero
dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com;
me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org
CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to
spoil
wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
cannot
and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
is a
simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner
for
WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
only
ones i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
if we
as
movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it
is
better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights
to the
web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
people
doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
wrote:
> Hello everyone. > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation
for
> Wikimedia Italia. > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
> points. > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted
by
> Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained
that
the
> Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign
in
Italy
> in September. > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
well-known to
> run in September, and it has been like that for years. > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed
for
several
> days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners
went
live
> just for the last days. > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
> This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
the
history,
> and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
so in
> the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible
in
matters
> of > communication. > We are not *happy* with the situation, > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared
in
the
> middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
weeks
before
> the beginning of WLM. > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
> conversation and negotiation. > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's
just
better
> than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a
few
days in
> the middle of September. > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this
does
not
> mean that we are happy about what is happening. > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
expected
results
> for WLM in 2015. > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
clear
negative
> impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
Italia.
> This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
uploaded
> pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front
of our
> sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
> institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation
of
Italian
> photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
Museums),
> the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
Italiano
> (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
spends
> thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
money,
but
> because we have higher stakes. > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
renowned
> photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
McCurry (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
Fontana (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from
the
> Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we
are
> fighting > as WMIT. > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
beyond
being
> a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
monuments.
> > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
monuments,
> even if copyright has expired. > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
For.
Every.
> Monument. > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There
is
no
> official list of monuments in Italy. > > There is *extensive* documentation here: > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
> > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy
stats:
> http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is
the
reason
> why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
2014
> alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of
number
of
> photos. > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement. > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
Wikimedia
> Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also
Wiki
Loves
> Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
sources).
> The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
movement:
but, for
> this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the
very
> activities it is meant to support. > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
in a
small
> library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
competition
> who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
pictures
> to the Wikimedia projects. > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
when it
is
> done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money
to
build
> and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for
all
the
> people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
career
to the
> movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also
have a
> negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
team
> is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
confident
> that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
that in
the
> future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work
more
> collaboratively. > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with
WMF
and all
> other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of
all
the
> Wikimedia movement. > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave
us
opinions
> and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we
would
like
> to see it become wider and bigger. > > Andrea Zanni > for the board of Wikimedia Italia > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Did you mean they did /not/ tell you?
2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta, while I ma in change of the banners.
How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?
Romaine
2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com:
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
run
the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
worked
hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
is
time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
organising
teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in
September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
situation, I
have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
Page
of
Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I
do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work.
A
blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
largest
project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to
the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire,
I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
core
infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
fundraising
banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
afgescheept
worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
large
ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
the
largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
the
same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes
you
can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
even
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience
in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner,
let
the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
first
should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly
zero
dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
> From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 > To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com; me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org > CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org; wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising > > dear board, > > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
to
spoil
> wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
cannot
and > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
is a
simple > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
banner
for
WLM > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
> the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
only
ones i > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
policy.
if we
as > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
it
is
better > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
rights
to the
> web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
people
> doing some work. > > best, > rupert > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
> > wrote: > > > Hello everyone. > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation
for
> > Wikimedia Italia. > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
> > points. > > > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
contacted
by
> > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
explained
that
the > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
campaign
in
Italy > > in September. > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to > > run in September, and it has been like that for years. > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we
discussed
for
several > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
banners
went
live > > just for the last days. > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
> > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
the
history, > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
so in > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible
in
matters > > of > > communication. > > We are not *happy* with the situation, > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this
appeared
in
the > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
weeks
before > > the beginning of WLM. > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
> > conversation and negotiation. > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
it's
just
better > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a
few
days in > > the middle of September. > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this
does
not > > mean that we are happy about what is happening. > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
expected
results > > for WLM in 2015. > > > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
clear
negative > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
Wikimedia
Italia. > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
and
uploaded > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
front
of our
> > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
> > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
Federation
of
Italian > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council
of
Museums), > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
Club
Italiano > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
spends
> > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
money,
but
> > because we have higher stakes. > > > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
renowned
> > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
McCurry (
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
Fontana (
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
from
the
> > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
we
are
> > fighting > > as WMIT. > > > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
beyond
being > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
create
> > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures
of
monuments. > > > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments, > > even if copyright has expired. > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
For.
Every. > > Monument. > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There
is
no
> > official list of monuments in Italy. > > > > There is *extensive* documentation here: > > > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
> > > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy
stats:
> > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
is
the
reason > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
2014 > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of
number
of > > photos. > > > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement. > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
Wikimedia
> > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also
Wiki
Loves > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
other
sources). > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
movement:
but, for > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
the
very
> > activities it is meant to support. > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
in a
small > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands
of
pictures > > to the Wikimedia projects. > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
when it
is > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
money
to
build > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
for
all
the > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
career
to the > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
also
have a
> > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
team > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to
be
confident > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
that in
the > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
work
more
> > collaboratively. > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
with
WMF
and all > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
of
all
the > > Wikimedia movement. > > > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
gave
us
opinions > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we
would
like > > to see it become wider and bigger. > > > > Andrea Zanni > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 11:26 PM, MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:
Did you mean they did /not/ tell you?
2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta, while I ma in change of the banners.
How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?
Romaine
2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com:
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
run
the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
worked
hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
it
is
time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
organising
teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in
September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
situation, I
have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So
we
will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
Page
of
Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and
social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe
a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen.
I
do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would
work.
A
blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
largest
project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach
to
the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media
fire,
I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
core
infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
fundraising
banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
afgescheept
worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
large
ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too
many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do
not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people
from
WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to
explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
the
largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They
have a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners
at
the
same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results.
Yes
you
can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication,
and
even
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of
experience
in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking
banner,
let
the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
>:
> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts. > > Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
first
> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for
exactly
zero
> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
> than free knowledge. It is frustrating... > > Regards, > Steinsplitter > > > From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com > > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 > > To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com; > me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; > darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; > stu@wikimedia.org > > CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org; > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising > > > > dear board, > > > > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
to
spoil
> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs.
WMF
cannot
> and > > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop.
there
is a
> simple > > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
banner
for
> WLM > > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
only
> ones i > > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
policy.
if we
> as > > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
it
is
> better > > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
rights
to the
> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all
the
people
> > doing some work. > > > > best, > > rupert > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
> > > > wrote: > > > > > Hello everyone. > > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the
situation
for
> > > Wikimedia Italia. > > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
> > > points. > > > > > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
contacted
by
> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
explained
that
> the > > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
campaign
in
> Italy > > > in September. > > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments
is
> well-known to > > > run in September, and it has been like that for years. > > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we
discussed
for
> several > > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
banners
went
> live > > > just for the last days. > > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September.
Given
the
> history, > > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
> so in > > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been
negligible
in
> matters > > > of > > > communication. > > > We are not *happy* with the situation, > > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this
appeared
in
> the > > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
weeks
> before > > > the beginning of WLM. > > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
> > > conversation and negotiation. > > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
it's
just
> better > > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for
just a
few
> days in > > > the middle of September. > > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite:
this
does
> not > > > mean that we are happy about what is happening. > > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
expected
> results > > > for WLM in 2015. > > > > > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
clear
> negative > > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
Wikimedia
> Italia. > > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
and
> uploaded > > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
front
of our
> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
Federation
of
> Italian > > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International
Council
of
> Museums), > > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
Club
> Italiano > > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others.
WMIT
spends
> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
money,
but
> > > because we have higher stakes. > > > > > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
renowned
> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
McCurry (
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
Fontana (
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). > > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
from
the
> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
we
are
> > > fighting > > > as WMIT. > > > > > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy
goes
beyond
> being > > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
create
> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking
pictures
of
> monuments. > > > > > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". > > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind
of
> monuments, > > > even if copyright has expired. > > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
For.
> Every. > > > Monument. > > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed.
There
is
no
> > > official list of monuments in Italy. > > > > > > There is *extensive* documentation here: > > > > > > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
> > > > > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM
Italy
stats:
> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
is
the
> reason > > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
> 2014 > > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms
of
number
> of > > > photos. > > > > > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement. > > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
Wikimedia
> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course,
also
Wiki
> Loves > > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
other
> sources). > > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
movement:
> but, for > > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
the
very
> > > activities it is meant to support. > > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours
editathon
in a
> small > > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international > competition > > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing
thousands
of
> pictures > > > to the Wikimedia projects. > > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job,
especially
when it
> is > > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
money
to
> build > > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
for
all
> the > > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or
their
career
> to the > > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
also
have a
> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. > > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
> team > > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like
to
be
> confident > > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time,
and
that in
> the > > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
work
more
> > > collaboratively. > > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
with
WMF
> and all > > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
of
all
> the > > > Wikimedia movement. > > > > > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
gave
us
> opinions > > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. > > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and
we
would
> like > > > to see it become wider and bigger. > > > > > > Andrea Zanni > > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> , > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
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?subject=unsubscribe>
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Yes, sorry, they did *not* communicate it with me.
They finally came to a great decision, it would have been perfect if they had just made a public announcement here.
Romaine
2015-08-31 0:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com:
Did you mean they did /not/ tell you?
2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta, while I ma in change of the banners.
How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?
Romaine
2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com:
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
run
the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
worked
hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
it
is
time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
organising
teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in
September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
situation, I
have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So
we
will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
Page
of
Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and
social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe
a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen.
I
do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would
work.
A
blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
largest
project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach
to
the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media
fire,
I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
core
infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
fundraising
banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
afgescheept
worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
large
ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too
many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do
not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people
from
WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to
explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
the
largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They
have a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners
at
the
same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results.
Yes
you
can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication,
and
even
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of
experience
in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking
banner,
let
the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
>:
> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts. > > Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
first
> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for
exactly
zero
> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
> than free knowledge. It is frustrating... > > Regards, > Steinsplitter > > > From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com > > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 > > To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com; > me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; > darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; > stu@wikimedia.org > > CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org; > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising > > > > dear board, > > > > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
to
spoil
> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs.
WMF
cannot
> and > > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop.
there
is a
> simple > > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
banner
for
> WLM > > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
only
> ones i > > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
policy.
if we
> as > > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
it
is
> better > > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
rights
to the
> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all
the
people
> > doing some work. > > > > best, > > rupert > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
> > > > wrote: > > > > > Hello everyone. > > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the
situation
for
> > > Wikimedia Italia. > > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
> > > points. > > > > > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
contacted
by
> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
explained
that
> the > > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
campaign
in
> Italy > > > in September. > > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments
is
> well-known to > > > run in September, and it has been like that for years. > > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we
discussed
for
> several > > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
banners
went
> live > > > just for the last days. > > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September.
Given
the
> history, > > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
> so in > > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been
negligible
in
> matters > > > of > > > communication. > > > We are not *happy* with the situation, > > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this
appeared
in
> the > > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
weeks
> before > > > the beginning of WLM. > > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
> > > conversation and negotiation. > > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
it's
just
> better > > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for
just a
few
> days in > > > the middle of September. > > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite:
this
does
> not > > > mean that we are happy about what is happening. > > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
expected
> results > > > for WLM in 2015. > > > > > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
clear
> negative > > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
Wikimedia
> Italia. > > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
and
> uploaded > > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
front
of our
> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
Federation
of
> Italian > > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International
Council
of
> Museums), > > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
Club
> Italiano > > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others.
WMIT
spends
> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
money,
but
> > > because we have higher stakes. > > > > > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
renowned
> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
McCurry (
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
Fontana (
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). > > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
from
the
> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
we
are
> > > fighting > > > as WMIT. > > > > > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy
goes
beyond
> being > > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
create
> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking
pictures
of
> monuments. > > > > > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". > > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind
of
> monuments, > > > even if copyright has expired. > > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
For.
> Every. > > > Monument. > > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed.
There
is
no
> > > official list of monuments in Italy. > > > > > > There is *extensive* documentation here: > > > > > > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
> > > > > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM
Italy
stats:
> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
is
the
> reason > > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
> 2014 > > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms
of
number
> of > > > photos. > > > > > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement. > > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
Wikimedia
> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course,
also
Wiki
> Loves > > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
other
> sources). > > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
movement:
> but, for > > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
the
very
> > > activities it is meant to support. > > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours
editathon
in a
> small > > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international > competition > > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing
thousands
of
> pictures > > > to the Wikimedia projects. > > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job,
especially
when it
> is > > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
money
to
> build > > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
for
all
> the > > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or
their
career
> to the > > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
also
have a
> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. > > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
> team > > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like
to
be
> confident > > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time,
and
that in
> the > > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
work
more
> > > collaboratively. > > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
with
WMF
> and all > > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
of
all
> the > > > Wikimedia movement. > > > > > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
gave
us
> opinions > > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. > > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and
we
would
> like > > > to see it become wider and bigger. > > > > > > Andrea Zanni > > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> , > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > <
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wi...
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On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
The following was posted a little over four hours after the RfC went live (and 12 minutes before your post here):
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_comment/Fundraisin...
Thanks to Romaine for greasing the wheels of communication!
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
(Please ignore the previous empty message of mine, which was sent in error. - A.)
Thank you, Andrea, Romaine, Lisa, and Luis.
Lisa, if you're interested, I'm happy to brainstorm with you off-list about some alternatives to help WMF Fundraising meet its goals.
Pine On Aug 30, 2015 1:21 PM, "Andrea Zanni" zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
is
time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page
of
Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
largest
project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to
the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
fundraising
banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
the
same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes
you
can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
even
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience
in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner,
let
the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
first
should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly
zero
dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com;
me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org
CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to
spoil
wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
cannot
and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
is a
simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner
for
WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
only
ones i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
if we
as
movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it
is
better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights
to the
web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
people
doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
wrote:
> Hello everyone. > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation
for
> Wikimedia Italia. > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
> points. > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted
by
> Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained
that
the
> Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign
in
Italy
> in September. > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
well-known to
> run in September, and it has been like that for years. > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed
for
several
> days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners
went
live
> just for the last days. > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
> This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
the
history,
> and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
so in
> the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible
in
matters
> of > communication. > We are not *happy* with the situation, > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared
in
the
> middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
weeks
before
> the beginning of WLM. > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
> conversation and negotiation. > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's
just
better
> than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a
few
days in
> the middle of September. > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this
does
not
> mean that we are happy about what is happening. > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
expected
results
> for WLM in 2015. > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
clear
negative
> impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
Italia.
> This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
uploaded
> pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front
of our
> sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
> institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation
of
Italian
> photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
Museums),
> the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
Italiano
> (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
spends
> thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
money,
but
> because we have higher stakes. > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
renowned
> photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
McCurry (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
Fontana (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from
the
> Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we
are
> fighting > as WMIT. > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
beyond
being
> a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
monuments.
> > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
monuments,
> even if copyright has expired. > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
For.
Every.
> Monument. > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There
is
no
> official list of monuments in Italy. > > There is *extensive* documentation here: > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
> > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy
stats:
> http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is
the
reason
> why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
2014
> alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of
number
of
> photos. > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement. > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
Wikimedia
> Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also
Wiki
Loves
> Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
sources).
> The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
movement:
but, for
> this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the
very
> activities it is meant to support. > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
in a
small
> library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
competition
> who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
pictures
> to the Wikimedia projects. > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
when it
is
> done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money
to
build
> and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for
all
the
> people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
career
to the
> movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also
have a
> negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
team
> is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
confident
> that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
that in
the
> future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work
more
> collaboratively. > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with
WMF
and all
> other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of
all
the
> Wikimedia movement. > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave
us
opinions
> and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we
would
like
> to see it become wider and bigger. > > Andrea Zanni > for the board of Wikimedia Italia > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
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?subject=unsubscribe>
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WMF has a loot of money, i am not sure if the goal of this time is really needed.
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 21:53:21 -0700 From: wiki.pine@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org; andrea.zanni@wikimedia.it; lvilla@wikimedia.org; lgruwell@wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Thank you, Andrea, Romaine, Lisa, and Luis.
Lisa, if you're interested, I'm happy to brainstorm with you off-list about some alternatives to help WMF Fundraising meet its goals.
Pine On Aug 30, 2015 1:21 PM, "Andrea Zanni" zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
is
time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page
of
Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
largest
project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to
the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
fundraising
banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
the
same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes
you
can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
even
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience
in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner,
let
the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
first
should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly
zero
dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
> From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 > To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com; me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org > CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org; wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising > > dear board, > > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to
spoil
> wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
cannot
and > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
is a
simple > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner
for
WLM > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
> the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
only
ones i > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
if we
as > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it
is
better > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights
to the
> web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
people
> doing some work. > > best, > rupert > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
> > wrote: > > > Hello everyone. > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation
for
> > Wikimedia Italia. > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
> > points. > > > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted
by
> > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained
that
the > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign
in
Italy > > in September. > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to > > run in September, and it has been like that for years. > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed
for
several > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners
went
live > > just for the last days. > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
> > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
the
history, > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
so in > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible
in
matters > > of > > communication. > > We are not *happy* with the situation, > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared
in
the > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
weeks
before > > the beginning of WLM. > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
> > conversation and negotiation. > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's
just
better > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a
few
days in > > the middle of September. > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this
does
not > > mean that we are happy about what is happening. > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
expected
results > > for WLM in 2015. > > > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
clear
negative > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia. > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front
of our
> > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
> > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation
of
Italian > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of Museums), > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
spends
> > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
money,
but
> > because we have higher stakes. > > > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
renowned
> > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
McCurry (
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
Fontana (
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from
the
> > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we
are
> > fighting > > as WMIT. > > > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
beyond
being > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of monuments. > > > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments, > > even if copyright has expired. > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
For.
Every. > > Monument. > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There
is
no
> > official list of monuments in Italy. > > > > There is *extensive* documentation here: > > > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
> > > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy
stats:
> > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is
the
reason > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
2014 > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of
number
of > > photos. > > > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement. > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
Wikimedia
> > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also
Wiki
Loves > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other sources). > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
movement:
but, for > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the
very
> > activities it is meant to support. > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
in a
small > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of pictures > > to the Wikimedia projects. > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
when it
is > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money
to
build > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for
all
the > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
career
to the > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also
have a
> > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
team > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be confident > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
that in
the > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work
more
> > collaboratively. > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with
WMF
and all > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of
all
the > > Wikimedia movement. > > > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave
us
opinions > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we
would
like > > to see it become wider and bigger. > > > > Andrea Zanni > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
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Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no relevance... Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
will have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
Page of Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have
a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
the same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
even think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com;
me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org
CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to
spoil
wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
cannot
and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner
for
WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only
ones i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
if we
as
movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights
to the
web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
people
doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello everyone. Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for Wikimedia Italia. The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
points.
In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted
by
Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained
that
the
Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign
in
Italy
in September. We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
well-known to
run in September, and it has been like that for years. Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we discussed
for
several
days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners
went
live
just for the last days. It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
history,
and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
so in
the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
matters
of communication. We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared
in
the
middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
before
the beginning of WLM. We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
conversation and negotiation. The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's
just
better
than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
days in
the middle of September. Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this
does
not
mean that we are happy about what is happening. Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
results
for WLM in 2015.
Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
negative
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
Italia.
This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
uploaded
pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front
of our
sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation
of
Italian
photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
Museums),
the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
Italiano
(the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
spends
thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money,
but
because we have higher stakes.
This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from
the
Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we
are
fighting as WMIT.
Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
beyond
being
a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
monuments.
Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
monuments,
even if copyright has expired. We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
Every.
Monument. We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is
no
official list of monuments in Italy.
There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikim edia_projects
This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy
stats:
http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is
the
reason
why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
2014
alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of
number
of
photos.
The global fundraising is essential to our movement. It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also
Wiki
Loves
Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
sources).
The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
but, for
this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the
very
activities it is meant to support. Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
small
library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
competition
who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
pictures
to the Wikimedia projects. We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
when it
is
done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
build
and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for
all
the
people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
career
to the
movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also
have a
negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
team
is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
confident
that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
that in
the
future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work
more
collaboratively. We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with
WMF
and all
other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of
all
the
Wikimedia movement.
We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
opinions
and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we
would
like
to see it become wider and bigger.
Andrea Zanni for the board of Wikimedia Italia _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4409/10544 - Release Date: 08/30/15
Below is a message that Andrea Zanni, President of Wikimedia Italia, and I have written together.
Hi everyone,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback. We would like to fill you in on the background work and conversations between Wikimedia Italia and WMF.
There was a scheduling problem to solve between two very important campaigns for the movement. Wiki Loves Monuments is a major contribution campaign and annual effort. Fundraising campaigns fund the movement and the team has a difficult goal this year with quarterly targets to meet. Direct communication was needed to work through the issue.
WMIT and WMF have been talking through the situation and many possible solutions over the past few weeks. Through very honest and respectful phone and email conversations, we were able to reach a mutual understanding of the issue and decided to move the fundraising campaign after Wiki Loves Monuments. We reached this agreement over the weekend (actually several hours before the RfC was posted online), but an immediate reply was not sent because we wanted to coordinate an update to the list. Weekend coordination is tricky, which is why this email is being sent on Monday.
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
Wikimedia Italia and the WMF fundraising team have collaborated in the past on several projects (chapter banner and email campaigns as well as fundraising campaigns). We are currently working together on ways to get more contributors to WLM in Italy this year and on the upcoming fundraiser. We’ll work on communication and will share mutual expertise. We look forward to continuing to grow the relationship and working more closely going forward.
It’s clear we need a better process to coordinate campaigns. We are a vast and complex movement, so communication is key. Together with the Community Engagement team, we are thinking of ways to improve and we appreciate your effort toward this improvement. Reasonable and respectful communication is how we were able to reach a solution, we need to build from this going forward.
Thank you to everyone who provided constructive ideas to help solve the problem. Best of luck to all the WLM campaigns that launch tomorrow! Thank you for all your work on WLM, we’re all looking forward to seeing the new contributions this year.
Megan Hernandez and Andrea Zanni
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no relevance... Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
will have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
Page of Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have
a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
the same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into
account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
even think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com;
me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org
CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
dear board,
allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to
spoil
wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
cannot
and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner
for
WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only
ones i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
if we
as
movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights
to the
web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
people
doing some work.
best, rupert
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
wrote:
> Hello everyone. > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the > situation for Wikimedia Italia. > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
> points. > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been > contacted
by
> Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who > explained
that
the
> Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising > campaign
in
Italy
> in September. > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
well-known to
> run in September, and it has been like that for years. > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we > discussed
for
several
> days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR > banners
went
live
> just for the last days. > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
> This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given > the
history,
> and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
so in
> the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been > negligible in
matters
> of > communication. > We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of > the clash, the fact that all this appeared
in
the
> middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few > weeks
before
> the beginning of WLM. > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
> conversation and negotiation. > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: > it's
just
better
> than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just > a few
days in
> the middle of September. > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: > this
does
not
> mean that we are happy about what is happening. > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate > expected
results
> for WLM in 2015. > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a > clear
negative
> impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of > Wikimedia
Italia.
> This will not only likely reduce the number of participants > and
uploaded
> pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in > front
of our
> sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
> institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the > Federation
of
Italian
> photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council > of
Museums),
> the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring > Club
Italiano
> (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
spends
> thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste > money,
but
> because we have higher stakes. > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international > renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) > Steve McCurry ( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco > Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians > from
the
> Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law > we
are
> fighting > as WMIT. > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
beyond
being
> a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to > create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking > pictures of
monuments.
> > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind > of
monuments,
> even if copyright has expired. > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
For.
Every.
> Monument. > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. > There is
no
> official list of monuments in Italy. > > There is *extensive* documentation here: > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikim edia_projects
> > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM > Italy
stats:
> http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it > is
the
reason
> why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
2014
> alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms > of
number
of
> photos. > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement. > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the > Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of > course, also
Wiki
Loves
> Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from > other
sources).
> The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
movement:
but, for
> this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of > the
very
> activities it is meant to support. > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon > in a
small
> library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
competition
> who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands > of
pictures
> to the Wikimedia projects. > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
when it
is
> done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors > money to
build
> and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect > for
all
the
> people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
career
to the
> movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could > also
have a
> negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
team
> is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to > be
confident
> that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
that in
the
> future we will be able to communicate more effectively and > work
more
> collaboratively. > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation > with
WMF
and all
> other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar > of
all
the
> Wikimedia movement. > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and > gave us
opinions
> and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and > we
would
like
> to see it become wider and bigger. > > Andrea Zanni > for the board of Wikimedia Italia > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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Hello Megan & Andrea,
Thank you for the message and the hard work done!
Greetings, Romaine
---- international organiser of Wiki Loves Monuments
2015-08-31 13:02 GMT+02:00 Megan Hernandez mhernandez@wikimedia.org:
Below is a message that Andrea Zanni, President of Wikimedia Italia, and I have written together.
Hi everyone,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback. We would like to fill you in on the background work and conversations between Wikimedia Italia and WMF.
There was a scheduling problem to solve between two very important campaigns for the movement. Wiki Loves Monuments is a major contribution campaign and annual effort. Fundraising campaigns fund the movement and the team has a difficult goal this year with quarterly targets to meet. Direct communication was needed to work through the issue.
WMIT and WMF have been talking through the situation and many possible solutions over the past few weeks. Through very honest and respectful phone and email conversations, we were able to reach a mutual understanding of the issue and decided to move the fundraising campaign after Wiki Loves Monuments. We reached this agreement over the weekend (actually several hours before the RfC was posted online), but an immediate reply was not sent because we wanted to coordinate an update to the list. Weekend coordination is tricky, which is why this email is being sent on Monday.
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
Wikimedia Italia and the WMF fundraising team have collaborated in the past on several projects (chapter banner and email campaigns as well as fundraising campaigns). We are currently working together on ways to get more contributors to WLM in Italy this year and on the upcoming fundraiser. We’ll work on communication and will share mutual expertise. We look forward to continuing to grow the relationship and working more closely going forward.
It’s clear we need a better process to coordinate campaigns. We are a vast and complex movement, so communication is key. Together with the Community Engagement team, we are thinking of ways to improve and we appreciate your effort toward this improvement. Reasonable and respectful communication is how we were able to reach a solution, we need to build from this going forward.
Thank you to everyone who provided constructive ideas to help solve the problem. Best of luck to all the WLM campaigns that launch tomorrow! Thank you for all your work on WLM, we’re all looking forward to seeing the new contributions this year.
Megan Hernandez and Andrea Zanni
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no relevance... Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
run
the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
worked
hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
will have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
Page of Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have
a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
the same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into
account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
even think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
> From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 > To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com; me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org > CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org; wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising > > dear board, > > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons > to
spoil
> wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
cannot
and > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there > is a simple > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined > banner
for
WLM > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
> the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the > only ones i > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
policy.
if we
as > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than > it is better > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the > rights
to the
> web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
people
> doing some work. > > best, > rupert > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
> > wrote: > > > Hello everyone. > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the > > situation for Wikimedia Italia. > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
> > points. > > > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been > > contacted
by
> > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who > > explained
that
the > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising > > campaign
in
Italy > > in September. > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to > > run in September, and it has been like that for years. > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we > > discussed
for
several > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR > > banners
went
live > > just for the last days. > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
> > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given > > the history, > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
so in > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been > > negligible in matters > > of > > communication. > > We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of > > the clash, the fact that all this appeared
in
the > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few > > weeks before > > the beginning of WLM. > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
> > conversation and negotiation. > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: > > it's
just
better > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just > > a few days in > > the middle of September. > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: > > this
does
not > > mean that we are happy about what is happening. > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate > > expected results > > for WLM in 2015. > > > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a > > clear negative > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of > > Wikimedia Italia. > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants > > and uploaded > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in > > front
of our
> > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
> > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the > > Federation
of
Italian > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council > > of Museums), > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring > > Club Italiano > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
spends
> > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste > > money,
but
> > because we have higher stakes. > > > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international > > renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) > > Steve McCurry ( > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco > > Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians > > from
the
> > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law > > we
are
> > fighting > > as WMIT. > > > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
beyond
being > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to > > create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking > > pictures of monuments. > > > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind > > of monuments, > > even if copyright has expired. > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
For.
Every. > > Monument. > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. > > There is
no
> > official list of monuments in Italy. > > > > There is *extensive* documentation here: > > > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikim edia_projects
> > > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM > > Italy
stats:
> > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it > > is
the
reason > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
2014 > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms > > of
number
of > > photos. > > > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement. > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the > > Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of > > course, also
Wiki
Loves > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from > > other sources). > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
movement:
but, for > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of > > the
very
> > activities it is meant to support. > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon > > in a small > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands > > of pictures > > to the Wikimedia projects. > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
when it
is > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors > > money to build > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect > > for
all
the > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
career
to the > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could > > also
have a
> > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
team > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to > > be confident > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
that in
the > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and > > work
more
> > collaboratively. > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation > > with
WMF
and all > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar > > of
all
the > > Wikimedia movement. > > > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and > > gave us opinions > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and > > we
would
like > > to see it become wider and bigger. > > > > Andrea Zanni > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
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--
Megan Hernandez
Director of Online Fundraising Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Megan Hernandez mhernandez@wikimedia.org wrote:
Below is a message that Andrea Zanni, President of Wikimedia Italia, and I have written together.
Hi everyone,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback. We would like to fill you in on the background work and conversations between Wikimedia Italia and WMF.
There was a scheduling problem to solve between two very important campaigns for the movement. Wiki Loves Monuments is a major contribution campaign and annual effort. Fundraising campaigns fund the movement and the team has a difficult goal this year with quarterly targets to meet. Direct communication was needed to work through the issue.
WMIT and WMF have been talking through the situation and many possible solutions over the past few weeks. Through very honest and respectful phone and email conversations, we were able to reach a mutual understanding of the issue and decided to move the fundraising campaign after Wiki Loves Monuments. We reached this agreement over the weekend (actually several hours before the RfC was posted online), but an immediate reply was not sent because we wanted to coordinate an update to the list. Weekend coordination is tricky, which is why this email is being sent on Monday.
Sorry to be a pain about this, but I'm puzzled.
Andrea wrote here on this list, four hours and fifteen minutes after the RfC started,
"I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all".
Unless "just" meant something like "five hours" ago, Andrea at least only seems to have learned of this agreement *after* the RfC launched.
Andreas
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
Wikimedia Italia and the WMF fundraising team have collaborated in the past on several projects (chapter banner and email campaigns as well as fundraising campaigns). We are currently working together on ways to get more contributors to WLM in Italy this year and on the upcoming fundraiser. We’ll work on communication and will share mutual expertise. We look forward to continuing to grow the relationship and working more closely going forward.
It’s clear we need a better process to coordinate campaigns. We are a vast and complex movement, so communication is key. Together with the Community Engagement team, we are thinking of ways to improve and we appreciate your effort toward this improvement. Reasonable and respectful communication is how we were able to reach a solution, we need to build from this going forward.
Thank you to everyone who provided constructive ideas to help solve the problem. Best of luck to all the WLM campaigns that launch tomorrow! Thank you for all your work on WLM, we’re all looking forward to seeing the new contributions this year.
Megan Hernandez and Andrea Zanni
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no relevance... Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
run
the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
worked
hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
will have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
Page of Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have
a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
the same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into
account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
even think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
> From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 > To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com; me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org > CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org; wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising > > dear board, > > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons > to
spoil
> wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
cannot
and > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there > is a simple > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined > banner
for
WLM > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
> the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the > only ones i > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
policy.
if we
as > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than > it is better > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the > rights
to the
> web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
people
> doing some work. > > best, > rupert > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
> > wrote: > > > Hello everyone. > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the > > situation for Wikimedia Italia. > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
> > points. > > > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been > > contacted
by
> > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who > > explained
that
the > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising > > campaign
in
Italy > > in September. > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to > > run in September, and it has been like that for years. > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we > > discussed
for
several > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR > > banners
went
live > > just for the last days. > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
> > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given > > the history, > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
so in > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been > > negligible in matters > > of > > communication. > > We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of > > the clash, the fact that all this appeared
in
the > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few > > weeks before > > the beginning of WLM. > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
> > conversation and negotiation. > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: > > it's
just
better > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just > > a few days in > > the middle of September. > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: > > this
does
not > > mean that we are happy about what is happening. > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate > > expected results > > for WLM in 2015. > > > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a > > clear negative > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of > > Wikimedia Italia. > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants > > and uploaded > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in > > front
of our
> > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
> > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the > > Federation
of
Italian > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council > > of Museums), > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring > > Club Italiano > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
spends
> > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste > > money,
but
> > because we have higher stakes. > > > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international > > renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) > > Steve McCurry ( > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco > > Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians > > from
the
> > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law > > we
are
> > fighting > > as WMIT. > > > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
beyond
being > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to > > create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking > > pictures of monuments. > > > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind > > of monuments, > > even if copyright has expired. > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
For.
Every. > > Monument. > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. > > There is
no
> > official list of monuments in Italy. > > > > There is *extensive* documentation here: > > > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikim edia_projects
> > > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM > > Italy
stats:
> > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it > > is
the
reason > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
2014 > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms > > of
number
of > > photos. > > > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement. > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the > > Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of > > course, also
Wiki
Loves > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from > > other sources). > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
movement:
but, for > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of > > the
very
> > activities it is meant to support. > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon > > in a small > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands > > of pictures > > to the Wikimedia projects. > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
when it
is > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors > > money to build > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect > > for
all
the > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
career
to the > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could > > also
have a
> > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
team > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to > > be confident > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
that in
the > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and > > work
more
> > collaboratively. > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation > > with
WMF
and all > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar > > of
all
the > > Wikimedia movement. > > > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and > > gave us opinions > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and > > we
would
like > > to see it become wider and bigger. > > > > Andrea Zanni > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
Unless "just" meant something like "five hours" ago, Andrea at least only seems to have learned of this agreement *after* the RfC launched.
Yes, it was meant as "a few hours ago". I received the mail from Lisa's before the Romaine sent his mail about the RfC. We just did not announce it immediately (it was Sunday, and we are in diferent time zones, so communication is not really easy). Mind you that we spoke the whole week and also the weekend, this is not a decision that the WMF has taken lightly. I'd like to look at it as a good example of creation of consent (which takes a lot of time and negotiation, as we all know).
Cheers
Aubrey
Congratulations on reaching agreement - to all parties concerned. I understand that is has not been easy, so well done!
Sandra Rientjes Directeur/Executive Director Wikimedia Nederland
tel. (+31) (0)30 3200238 mob. (+31) (0)6 31786379
www.wikimedia.nl
*Postadres*: * Bezoekadres:* Postbus 167 Mariaplaats 3 3500 AD Utrecht Utrecht
2015-08-31 15:17 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com:
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
Unless "just" meant something like "five hours" ago, Andrea at least only seems to have learned of this agreement *after* the RfC launched.
Yes, it was meant as "a few hours ago". I received the mail from Lisa's before the Romaine sent his mail about the RfC. We just did not announce it immediately (it was Sunday, and we are in diferent time zones, so communication is not really easy). Mind you that we spoke the whole week and also the weekend, this is not a decision that the WMF has taken lightly. I'd like to look at it as a good example of creation of consent (which takes a lot of time and negotiation, as we all know).
Cheers
Aubrey _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its target" and in smooth communication.
We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or need... Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
-- Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]]
I just want to respond to this point in particular:
"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target."
It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
Thanks Megan and all.
Pine
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour <mathias.damour@laposte.net
wrote:
Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its target" and in smooth communication.
We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or need... Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
-- Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]]
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken into consideration by these planners. Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I just want to respond to this point in particular:
"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target."
It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
Thanks Megan and all.
Pine
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour <mathias.damour@laposte.net
wrote:
Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its target" and in smooth communication.
We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or need... Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
-- Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]]
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Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give them some breathing room, especially because they say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next year.
Pine
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken into consideration by these planners. Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I just want to respond to this point in particular:
"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target."
It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
Thanks Megan and all.
Pine
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour < mathias.damour@laposte.net
wrote:
Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its target" and in smooth communication.
We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or need... Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
-- Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]]
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One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future. Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get the opportunity to learn by the mistake. Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give them some breathing room, especially because they say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next year.
Pine
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken into consideration by these planners. Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I just want to respond to this point in particular:
"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target."
It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
Thanks Megan and all.
Pine
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour < mathias.damour@laposte.net
wrote:
Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its target" and in smooth communication.
We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or need... Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
-- Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]]
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I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising targets or the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?
My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a deconfliction of banner space via better scheduling next year. I think that someone suggested setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might also be helpful.
I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the stakeholders take it from here.
Pine
On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future. Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get the opportunity to learn by the mistake. Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give them some breathing room, especially because they say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next year.
Pine
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken into consideration by these planners. Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I just want to respond to this point in particular:
"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target."
It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
Thanks Megan and all.
Pine
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour < mathias.damour@laposte.net
wrote:
Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its target" and in smooth communication.
We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or
need...
Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
-- Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]]
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I was referring to the fundraising targets, which have been cited as a cause of the dispute. WMIT/WLM have explained at length their reasons for needing banners in September. I am in no position to comment on whether their analysis is correct or not . Fundraising has not been so forthcoming in response to queries. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 1:45 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising targets or the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?
My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a deconfliction of banner space via better scheduling next year. I think that someone suggested setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might also be helpful.
I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the stakeholders take it from here.
Pine
On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future. Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get the opportunity to learn by the mistake. Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give them some breathing room, especially because they say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next year.
Pine
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken into consideration by these planners. Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I just want to respond to this point in particular:
"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target."
It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
Thanks Megan and all.
Pine
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour < mathias.damour@laposte.net
wrote:
Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its target" and in smooth communication.
We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or
need...
Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
-- Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]]
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First, thanks to all of those who worked in good faith, with patience and care for each other to solve this problem. I appreciate the level of compromise and empathy that was required from teams at WMIL and WMF. Thank you!
Second, I want to highlight that this is a *our* issue, we are a community and we need to think about our *one mission* to engage every human with knowledge, before our individual goals. Let's please remember that before we detract and distract with polarizing rhetoric (you know who you are on this list). Bring up issues, suggest solutions. But please, in good faith and with care for each other.
Thanks all, Lila
On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
I was referring to the fundraising targets, which have been cited as a cause of the dispute. WMIT/WLM have explained at length their reasons for needing banners in September. I am in no position to comment on whether their analysis is correct or not . Fundraising has not been so forthcoming in response to queries. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 1:45 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising targets or the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?
My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a deconfliction of banner space via better scheduling next year. I think that someone suggested setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might also be helpful.
I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the stakeholders take it from here.
Pine
On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future. Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get
the opportunity to learn by the mistake.
Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give them some breathing room, especially because they say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next year.
Pine
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken into consideration by these planners. Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I just want to respond to this point in particular:
"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target."
It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans that come with changing to
accommodate WLM:
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
Thanks Megan and all.
Pine
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour < mathias.damour@laposte.net
wrote:
Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its target" and in smooth communication.
We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or
need...
Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
-- Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]]
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Firstly, I'm delighted to see that a mutually acceptable compromise has been reached here. Well done everyone in coming together with the best interests of the entire movement in mind.
If I can make a suggestion though, I'd suggest that the fundraising team and the community, particularly the WLM crew, get together *now* and try to work out how those campaigns are going to be coordinated so that this doesn't happen again next year, while there are still good vibes in the air. Something we're all really bad at as a movement, is procrastinating on these sort of issues, but if there is a bit of forward planning there's no reason that everyone can't have their cake and eat it too.
Cheers, Craig
On 31 August 2015 at 21:02, Megan Hernandez mhernandez@wikimedia.org wrote:
Below is a message that Andrea Zanni, President of Wikimedia Italia, and I have written together.
Hi everyone,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback. We would like to fill you in on the background work and conversations between Wikimedia Italia and WMF.
There was a scheduling problem to solve between two very important campaigns for the movement. Wiki Loves Monuments is a major contribution campaign and annual effort. Fundraising campaigns fund the movement and the team has a difficult goal this year with quarterly targets to meet. Direct communication was needed to work through the issue.
WMIT and WMF have been talking through the situation and many possible solutions over the past few weeks. Through very honest and respectful phone and email conversations, we were able to reach a mutual understanding of the issue and decided to move the fundraising campaign after Wiki Loves Monuments. We reached this agreement over the weekend (actually several hours before the RfC was posted online), but an immediate reply was not sent because we wanted to coordinate an update to the list. Weekend coordination is tricky, which is why this email is being sent on Monday.
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
Wikimedia Italia and the WMF fundraising team have collaborated in the past on several projects (chapter banner and email campaigns as well as fundraising campaigns). We are currently working together on ways to get more contributors to WLM in Italy this year and on the upcoming fundraiser. We’ll work on communication and will share mutual expertise. We look forward to continuing to grow the relationship and working more closely going forward.
It’s clear we need a better process to coordinate campaigns. We are a vast and complex movement, so communication is key. Together with the Community Engagement team, we are thinking of ways to improve and we appreciate your effort toward this improvement. Reasonable and respectful communication is how we were able to reach a solution, we need to build from this going forward.
Thank you to everyone who provided constructive ideas to help solve the problem. Best of luck to all the WLM campaigns that launch tomorrow! Thank you for all your work on WLM, we’re all looking forward to seeing the new contributions this year.
Megan Hernandez and Andrea Zanni
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no relevance... Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hello everybody. I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
run
the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
worked
hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation. I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
in:
- Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
will have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
- WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
Page of Wikipedia
- WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
- WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
- WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
media
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
time.
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the
core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team
of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
really
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF
who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:
- Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
for
the
movement, they have a target to make.
- Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have
a
lot of
weight and use it.
- Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
banner)
is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
- Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
- Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
impressed
by
those.
- Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
the same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into
account seriously.
- Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
even think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in
this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
:
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
Regards, Steinsplitter
> From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 > To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com; me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com; darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com; stu@wikimedia.org > CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org; wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising > > dear board, > > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons > to
spoil
> wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
cannot
and > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there > is a simple > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined > banner
for
WLM > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
> the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the > only ones i > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
policy.
if we
as > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than > it is better > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the > rights
to the
> web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
people
> doing some work. > > best, > rupert > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
> > wrote: > > > Hello everyone. > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the > > situation for Wikimedia Italia. > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
> > points. > > > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been > > contacted
by
> > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who > > explained
that
the > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising > > campaign
in
Italy > > in September. > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to > > run in September, and it has been like that for years. > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we > > discussed
for
several > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR > > banners
went
live > > just for the last days. > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
> > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given > > the history, > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
so in > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been > > negligible in matters > > of > > communication. > > We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of > > the clash, the fact that all this appeared
in
the > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few > > weeks before > > the beginning of WLM. > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
> > conversation and negotiation. > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: > > it's
just
better > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just > > a few days in > > the middle of September. > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: > > this
does
not > > mean that we are happy about what is happening. > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate > > expected results > > for WLM in 2015. > > > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a > > clear negative > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of > > Wikimedia Italia. > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants > > and uploaded > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in > > front
of our
> > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
> > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the > > Federation
of
Italian > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council > > of Museums), > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring > > Club Italiano > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
spends
> > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste > > money,
but
> > because we have higher stakes. > > > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international > > renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) > > Steve McCurry ( > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco > > Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians > > from
the
> > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law > > we
are
> > fighting > > as WMIT. > > > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
beyond
being > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to > > create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking > > pictures of monuments. > > > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind > > of monuments, > > even if copyright has expired. > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
For.
Every. > > Monument. > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. > > There is
no
> > official list of monuments in Italy. > > > > There is *extensive* documentation here: > > > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikim edia_projects
> > > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM > > Italy
stats:
> > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it > > is
the
reason > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
2014 > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms > > of
number
of > > photos. > > > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement. > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the > > Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of > > course, also
Wiki
Loves > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from > > other sources). > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
movement:
but, for > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of > > the
very
> > activities it is meant to support. > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon > > in a small > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands > > of pictures > > to the Wikimedia projects. > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
when it
is > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors > > money to build > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect > > for
all
the > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
career
to the > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could > > also
have a
> > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
team > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to > > be confident > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
that in
the > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and > > work
more
> > collaboratively. > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation > > with
WMF
and all > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar > > of
all
the > > Wikimedia movement. > > > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and > > gave us opinions > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and > > we
would
like > > to see it become wider and bigger. > > > > Andrea Zanni > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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--
Megan Hernandez
Director of Online Fundraising Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Lila, As you have appended your message to this thread, I assume that there is a non-zero probability that you are referring to one or more of the contributors to the thread. I do not consider any of the mails included to be polarizing rhetoric, so could you inform us whether you do, and if so, which, or whether there was another reason why that specific comment was appended here. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Lila Tretikov Sent: Saturday, 05 September 2015 7:16 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
First, thanks to all of those who worked in good faith, with patience and care for each other to solve this problem. I appreciate the level of compromise and empathy that was required from teams at WMIL and WMF. Thank you!
Second, I want to highlight that this is a *our* issue, we are a community and we need to think about our *one mission* to engage every human with knowledge, before our individual goals. Let's please remember that before we detract and distract with polarizing rhetoric (you know who you are on this list). Bring up issues, suggest solutions. But please, in good faith and with care for each other.
Thanks all, Lila
On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
I was referring to the fundraising targets, which have been cited as a cause of the dispute. WMIT/WLM have explained at length their reasons for needing banners in September. I am in no position to comment on whether their analysis is correct or not . Fundraising has not been so forthcoming in response to queries. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 1:45 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising targets or the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?
My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a deconfliction of banner space via better scheduling next year. I think that someone suggested setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might also be helpful.
I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the stakeholders take it from here.
Pine
On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future. Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get
the opportunity to learn by the mistake.
Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give them some breathing room, especially because they say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next year.
Pine
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken into consideration by these planners. Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I just want to respond to this point in particular:
"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target."
It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans that come with changing to
accommodate WLM:
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
Thanks Megan and all.
Pine
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour < mathias.damour@laposte.net
wrote:
Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its target" and in smooth communication.
We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or
need...
Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
-- Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]]
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I think everyone here worked in good faith, and everyone started with patience in this situation. Suggesting otherwise suggests a lack of empathy. But we should not close our eyes when the community is being played in a non fair way, and I then mean NOT the bocking banner, but how the interaction went. This issue is not the first time that the fundraising team has shown us rude behaviour.
There was no polarizing rhetoric, the rhetoric used was used when the polarisation already happened. And was only used when the edge of care, patience and reasonable was passed long ago. It is nice to call here in public that we should bring up issues and suggest solutions, but we have done so.
I find it disturbing that WMF does not recognise their own worse behaviour (of *some* staff), and sticks their head in the sand.
If you say that it is *our* issue, a different attitude should be used: the community has not been treated as a stakeholder, while we are. As long as the community is not actually seen as stakeholder, it makes highlighting *one mission* being empty words
It is said (by WMF staff) that we should come to a better planning of CentralNotice banners, we are open for that as we have called for this already 2013. We are open to this and are waiting.
Greetings, Romaine
2015-09-05 7:15 GMT+02:00 Lila Tretikov lila@wikimedia.org:
First, thanks to all of those who worked in good faith, with patience and care for each other to solve this problem. I appreciate the level of compromise and empathy that was required from teams at WMIL and WMF. Thank you!
Second, I want to highlight that this is a *our* issue, we are a community and we need to think about our *one mission* to engage every human with knowledge, before our individual goals. Let's please remember that before we detract and distract with polarizing rhetoric (you know who you are on this list). Bring up issues, suggest solutions. But please, in good faith and with care for each other.
Thanks all, Lila
On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
I was referring to the fundraising targets, which have been cited as a cause of the dispute. WMIT/WLM have explained at length their reasons for needing banners in September. I am in no position to comment on whether their analysis is correct or not . Fundraising has not been so
forthcoming
in response to queries. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 1:45 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising targets or the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?
My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a deconfliction of banner space via better scheduling next year. I think
that
someone suggested setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might also be helpful.
I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the stakeholders take it from here.
Pine
On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future. Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get
the opportunity to learn by the mistake.
Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give them some breathing room, especially because they say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next year.
Pine
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken into consideration by these planners. Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
I just want to respond to this point in particular:
"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target."
It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans that come with changing to
accommodate WLM:
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
Thanks Megan and all.
Pine
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour < mathias.damour@laposte.net
wrote:
Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September. It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September target.
The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its target" and in smooth communication.
We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or
need...
Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
-- Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]]
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