Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

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Patricia Pena

17 Nov 2014 17 Nov '14

9:06 p.m.

Hi Lodewijk, Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into maintenance mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :) We know the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline bank transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor Services team. We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months, which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much faster and easier way. Thanks! Pats On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote:

...

A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, because the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there have been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors. No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply refers you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page < https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPag…

only allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment. What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily suspended? If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both iDEAL and IBAN <http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland>). One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't quite get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through all kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank transfer... Best, Lodewijk _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

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Lodewijk

17 Nov 17 Nov

9:16 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Hi Patricia, Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of emailing the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something? Best, Lodewijk On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena <ppena(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,

because

the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there

have

been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors. No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply

refers

you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer

(using

an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page <

https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPag…

quite

get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through

all

kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank transfer... Best, Lodewijk _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations Wikimedia Foundation office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764 cell: +1 (415) 816 3349 fax: +1 (415) 284 9511 ppena(a)wikimedia.org *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate. <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Garfield Byrd

28 Nov 28 Nov

11:13 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Lodewijk, IBAN and bank account information is sent out upon request due to the level of attempted bank fraud when the account information was posted on the website. I can review with our bank to see if IBAN security and fraud protection has improved so that we can publicly post our IBAN number. Regards, Garfield On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote:

...

Hi Lodewijk, Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into

maintenance

bank

transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor Services team. We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months, which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much

faster

and easier way. Thanks! Pats On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote:

A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,

because > the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.

the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there

have

refers

you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer

(using

an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page <

https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPag…

> > > only > allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply

sends

> you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment. > > What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal > swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer > required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get

temporarily

> suspended? > > If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send

the

donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both iDEAL and IBAN <http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland>). One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't

quite

get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through

all

the

sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate. <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Lodewijk

29 Nov 29 Nov

9:05 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Hi Garfield, Thanks for the clarification. It's surprising to me that posting a bank account number could lead to fraud - the bank systems are supposed to be robust enough for that. I know that all charities in the Netherlands post this number on their website - maybe it could be worth while to reach out and see if switching banks might improve the security, if Citibank didn't fix it themselves? (There is little relevancy of security to 'IBAN' itself of course, which is merely a bank account number. I'm assuming you're referring to what people can do using that number to get access in the bank). Anyway, best of luck with fixing the underlying problem! Best, Lodewijk On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 12:13 AM, Garfield Byrd <gbyrd(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

Hi Lodewijk, Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into

maintenance

bank > transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor > Services team. > > We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and

there

> will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few

months,

which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much

faster > and easier way. > > Thanks! > Pats > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk <

lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org>

wrote:

A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,

because > the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.

At > > the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then,

there

> have > > been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors. > > > > No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the

most

common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply

refers

you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer

(using

an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page <

https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPag…

> > > only > allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply

sends

temporarily

> suspended? > > If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send

the > > donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in

the

> > local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers

both

> > iDEAL and IBAN > > <http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland>). > > > > One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't > quite > > get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and

that

> > this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go

through

> all > > kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip

bank

> > transfer... > > > > Best, > > > > Lodewijk > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

the

-- Garfield Byrd Chief of Finance and Administration Wikimedia Foundation 415.839.6885 ext 6787 415.882.0495 (fax) www.wikimediafoundation.org Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! *https://donate.wikimedia.org <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Michael Snow

30 Nov 30 Nov

12:03 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

On 11/29/2014 1:05 AM, Lodewijk wrote:

...

One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards. The basic technique is that when people illegally buy credit card numbers in large volumes, since they normally don't possess an actual card, they commonly test the validity of the card information by making very small online payments or donations to a known account. If the transaction goes through, they know the card number can be "safely" used for larger-scale fraud. Meanwhile, the small donations will invariably be backed out of the system, whether by the fraudsters themselves or by the financial institutions cleaning up later when the fraud is detected. I don't know if that's the specific reason for the decision here, but I know the fundraising team has dealt with fraud of this type in the past, and there may be other issues as well. Ultimately it may not directly threaten the security of our donors or the funds they contribute, but it does create costs to the organization when it has to identify and review a significant amount of fraudulent activity. Also, in financial circles becoming a target for fraud or money laundering, even inadvertently, could affect our reputation and the willingness of other organizations to work with us. As for our own difficulties around communications here, I suspect on all sides we don't fully appreciate the challenges involved when trying to merge financial cultures in a global sense. A system may provide relatively open access to credit while treating bank information as highly sensitive (as the US mostly does), or it may be more open with bank information while being much more restrictive about credit (as some European countries do). Each system has its security practices tailored to facilitating typical transaction flows within the system. The underlying assumptions may not work well across systems and may hinder the ability to establish smooth connections between the two sides. I certainly don't claim that the American system is necessarily superior, but in the past when we've considered in which jurisdiction the Wikimedia Foundation should base its operations, I think the financial regime has been a secondary consideration, relative to other priorities. --Michael Snow

MZMcBride

2:36 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Wikimedia always accepts donations. If the Wikimedia Foundation can't figure out a way to easily accept monetary donations from Dutch Wikimedians, why not simply focus efforts on non-monetary donations? Edits and other wiki contributions are far more valuable, in my opinion. Wikimedia Nederland seems to already be doing a lot of great work encouraging these types of contributions (e.g., Wiki Loves [X]). :-) For the past few years I've seen it as fairly low-hanging fruit to create a tongue-in-cheek "don't donate to Wikipedia" or "donate time instead" or similar campaign. Or even register "DonateToWikipedia.org" and send visitors to the edit form of an article that needs love. When people ask me in real-life about donating to Wikipedia (nobody knows what Wikimedia is), I typically suggest making a few edits instead of donating money directly. I don't think the Wikimedia Foundation really needs the money and I think volunteer time is worth significantly more. MZMcBride

Gerard Meijssen

7:35 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Hoi, Do not be daft. The Wikimedia Foundation centralised its fundraising. It said that it would do a better job. Seen from a central periphery model, it probably does, However seen from the Netherlands it is rather silly., Pooh poohing this away with "you can donate time as well" is fine when you are in the centre. Recently chapters were told to fundraise. There is a point to that but it is also a specific skill. It is not smart to develop such skills and not make use of it in what is effectively the biggest fundraiser for a chapter. We are discussing,yet again, the text and approach of the fundraiser and we are yet again going through the same moves. We are a movement and the Wikimedia Foundation is not it. It does not optimise the opportunities for all of us. In the Netherlands, I would not be surprised when the amount of fundraising could at least double with local involvement. Thanks, GerardM On 30 November 2014 at 03:36, MZMcBride <z(a)mzmcbride.com> wrote:

...

rupert THURNER

2:23 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

hi mz, you are right, the whole wikipedia is built by volunteer time and could have not been built otherwise. so volunteer time clearly is worth significantly more. i sometimes feel ripped off as a volunteer. first i donate my time, and then people approach me to addtionally spend money for a conference, like last year in geneva 250eur for an open knowledge conference. or i want to meet a person who is not wealthy enough to pay her trip to london within the UK, and there is no way to get her a 100 gbp, as happend last year. wmf is not capable - i should have planned this a year in advance. wmch would be flexible enough but a different country and punished by WMF for beeing flexible. wmuk does not have a budget for such a strange thing, and it should have known it in advance as well. so where should this money come from? the easiest and cheapest is: take the money from the website. coupled with a more flexible, localised spending scheme. so WMCH or WMUK could pay this without headache. but WMF does not want this. out of 60 mio usd income, 52 mio or 86% is spent by the wikimedia foundation, yearly increasing. and most of it is spent in the united states. some time in future even wmf persons will recognize that if i would be perfectly organized and most intelligent person in the world i would use zero time for wikipedia. i'd instead sell my time as expensive as possible, and i'd be rich as bill gates. the foundation, and even some chapters, give the impression only perfect persons are good enough for them. or, even worse, treat them deliberatly like cattle. the core of its movement with it turns away, as those people are not good enough. and as bill gates and the other perfect persons will not contribute, nobody will. so we are back on field one, nupedia. jimbo has his personal foundation which will honor him even when he is dead, financed by one of the worlds largest websites. the foundation pays 1000 persons to keep it running. no volunteers necessary. rupert On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 3:36 AM, MZMcBride <z(a)mzmcbride.com> wrote:

...

Gerard Meijssen

5:46 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Hoi, Our community, movement and our foundation is pretty darn good. When you consider all the imperfections, there is after all room for improvement, it is really amazing how much is achieved on such a shoestring budget. We pay the prize for under-investing in our organisation, in our infrastructure. Our "primary" systems however are pretty stable. My point is not that we should lose our ethos but that we should be more smart about it. It is only fairly recently that we have the talent to really improve the basics of our infra structure. We now have our systems in multiple professional locations, The guts of MediaWiki is changing in more than one way. Wikidata will make a splash in 2015. As it is, it is has so much room for growth. The biggest amount of data will arrive from the bigger projects however, the biggest potential is in the 250 other languages that we support. Yes, there are plenty individual stories that suck. But our projects will never be like Nupedia. Some people have to revisit what we learned. One of the lessons was that we can be and should be daring and innovative. Not heeding this lesson is what will most likely do us in. Thanks, GerardM On 30 November 2014 at 15:23, rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

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Federico Leva (Nemo)

6:19 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 01:03:

...

One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards. [.............]

So what all this message have to do with IBAN? Nemo

Michael Snow

6:40 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

On 11/30/2014 10:19 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

...

Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 01:03:

One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards. [.............]

So what all this message have to do with IBAN?

As the rest of the message discussed, the fraudsters can use the IBAN to make a "donation" in order to test that stolen card information belongs to a real credit card. --Michael Snow

Jan Ainali

6:44 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 19:40 GMT+01:00 Michael Snow <wikipedia(a)frontier.com>om>:

...

On 11/30/2014 10:19 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 01:03:

One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards. [.............]

So what all this message have to do with IBAN?

As the rest of the message discussed, the fraudsters can use the IBAN to make a "donation" in order to test that stolen card information belongs to a real credit card.

Is IBAN more vulnerable to this than just the possibility to being able to donate from a credit card at all? /Jan

Bence Damokos

6:46 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 7:40 PM, Michael Snow <wikipedia(a)frontier.com> wrote:

...

On 11/30/2014 10:19 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 01:03:

One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards. [.............]

So what all this message have to do with IBAN?

As the rest of the message discussed, the fraudsters can use the IBAN to make a "donation" in order to test that stolen card information belongs to a real credit card.

Thinking through your example, the fraudsters would need to have an online interface for transfering money from a credit card to a bank account, and getting some form of verification that the transfer went through. I am not sure it was clear from your explanation how knowing the bank account number any help in getting the two components for the fraud (the transfer system and the verification), as opposed to the donation system itself (which does not have to reveal the destination account number, and which in the case of the WMF is likely a different account then the bank account whose number was previously displayed online). Best regards, Bence

...

--Michael Snow _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Federico Leva (Nemo)

7:12 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 19:40:

...

As the rest of the message discussed, the fraudsters can use the IBAN to make a "donation" in order to test that stolen card information belongs to a real credit card.

Are you sure you know what an IBAN is? Anyway, please inform the European Central Bank of your findings, I'm sure they'll be interested in hearing them. Currently their website seems unaware of such fraud possibilities and contains statements such as «Sensitive data payment: Data which could be used to carry out fraud, excluding the name of the account owner and the account number». <https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/pubconsultationoutcome201405securitypaymentaccountaccessservicesen.pdf> Nemo

Michael Snow

1 Dec 1 Dec

2:59 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

On 11/30/2014 11:12 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

...

Anyway, please inform the European Central Bank of your findings, I'm sure they'll be interested in hearing them. Currently their website seems unaware of such fraud possibilities and contains statements such as «Sensitive data payment: Data which could be used to carry out fraud, excluding the name of the account owner and the account number». <https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/pubconsultationoutcome201405securitypaymentaccountaccessservicesen.pdf>

I'm not sure why you would conclude they are unaware of a possible form for fraud just because they don't specifically identify it on their website. At any rate, I suspect you may be misunderstanding the definition of "sensitive payment data" (the actual term from the linked document, which was somehow transposed above). To my reading, that looks like an attempt to create a precise technical definition for the purposes of the report, so that whenever the term was used it would always mean the same thing. I don't think it's claiming that the name of the account owner and the account number are not in the larger class of "data which could be used to carry out fraud". Rather, because these are nearly essential to transactions being possible at all, I believe the language is attempting to exclude them from the restrictions that the report recommends for all other data which meets the definition of "sensitive payment data". --Michael Snow

Gerard Meijssen

30 Nov 30 Nov

9:14 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Hoi, An IBAN number is NOT a credit card ... You need a ping number in combination with some smart card functionality in order to make it work.. The combination generates a number that is always different.. You can steal my card but making use of it without the pin number is really hard, next to impossible.. At that Europe has better card security than the USA. Thanks, GerardM On 30 November 2014 at 19:40, Michael Snow <wikipedia(a)frontier.com> wrote:

...

On 11/30/2014 10:19 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 01:03:

One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards. [.............]

So what all this message have to do with IBAN?

As the rest of the message discussed, the fraudsters can use the IBAN to make a "donation" in order to test that stolen card information belongs to a real credit card. --Michael Snow _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Michael Snow

1 Dec 1 Dec

2:38 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

On 11/30/2014 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

...

You seem to have misunderstood the scenario I laid out. I'm not talking about people using the IBAN to steal money out of a Wikimedia account, I depend on the bank to have security robust enough to prevent that. The scenario I'm discussing involves people using the IBAN to fraudulently pay money to Wikimedia from someone else's account, such as a credit card. That account does not necessarily have an IBAN or chip-and-pin security, and at any rate whatever security it has was already breached. The payment would just be a method for the fraudsters to verify the success of the breach. The result would be added costs to Wikimedia and to the financial institutions involved, in order to identify and reverse the fraudulent transactions. To respond to some of the other questions raised about my scenario: This was a risk scenario I presented to answer the question, "How can posting a bank account number lead to fraud?" It may or may not have been a factor in the decision to not publicly post the IBAN, I don't know. I'm also not suggesting that this scenario is unique to IBAN, it could affect any type of account number that accepts payments (for example, accounts you might have for various utility services, such as water, electricity, telephone, or internet). It's also possible thru PayPal, of course, and that's the reason for having a $1 minimum donation requirement, among other protections. I don't know if there are difficulties with establishing comparable security around the IBAN, or if it's more a matter of a cost-benefit analysis indicating that it's worth the resources to deal with this for donations via Wikimedia's online payment form, but not for donations directly to Wikimedia's bank account. Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that according to the European Payments Council, it seems payees receiving SEPA credit transfers are advised to communicate the IBAN "only where necessary": http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit-transfer/iban-a… (and likewise for payers making direct debit payments). It may simply be that the fundraising team has been advised that this is more consistent with providing the IBAN upon request, rather than posting it on the website. Not to disparage what may be common practice at other organizations, but that does seem like a natural conclusion to draw from that guidance. --Michael Snow

Tim Landscheidt

3:22 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Michael Snow <wikipedia(a)frontier.com> wrote:

...

[...]

...

Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that according to the European Payments Council, it seems payees receiving SEPA credit transfers are advised to communicate the IBAN "only where necessary": http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit-transfer/iban-a… (and likewise for payers making direct debit payments).

That text and Regulation 260/2012 it refers to use "only where necessary" to refer to the publication of the *BIC* as it is only necessary for routing in the transition period that ends February 1st, 2016 at the latest.

...

(and likewise for payers making direct debit payments). It may simply be that the fundraising team has been advised that this is more consistent with providing the IBAN upon request, rather than posting it on the website. Not to disparage what may be common practice at other organizations, but that does seem like a natural conclusion to draw from that guidance.

It could also be that the guidance was bad (or misunder- stood) and it is advisable to change banks before money is "lost". Tim

Federico Leva (Nemo)

11:56 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Tim Landscheidt, 01/12/2014 04:22:

...

>Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that >according to the European Payments Council, it seems payees >receiving SEPA credit transfers are advised to communicate >the IBAN "only where necessary": >http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit-transfer/iban-and-bic/ >(and likewise for payers making direct debit payments).

That text and Regulation 260/2012 it refers to use "only where necessary" to refer to the publication of the*BIC* as it is only necessary for routing in the transition period that ends February 1st, 2016 at the latest.

Besides, «Note: the European Payments Council (EPC), representing the European banking industry in relation to payments, is not a European Union (EU) legislative body». Michael Snow, 01/12/2014 03:59:

...

I'm not sure why you would conclude they are unaware of a possible form for fraud just because they don't specifically identify it on their website.

Because part of the ECB mandate is to identify, combat and educate about payment systems risks. There are dozens of watchdogs ensuring they actually do (the biggest might be BEUC). If WMF, with its certainly outstanding computer security knowledge, identified security risks which ECB is not forthcoming about, I'd expect WMF to communicate with ECB, and if necessary partner with consumerist associations, so that such risks are communicated to 516 millions SEPA area citizens. Risker, 01/12/2014 06:31:

...

Banks in Canada regularly call their customers for transactions under $5 because fraud is so common - and that is with chip cards and PINs.

And what does this tell us about EU/SEPA banking system? Nemo

Gerard Meijssen

5:08 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Hoi, IMHO we need to advertise how people can transfer money to us. It requires an account number. Now if the USA is not able to accommodate this, FINE, let us do it in Europe at least.. WHAT AM I MISSING HERE ? Thanks, GerardM On 1 December 2014 at 03:38, Michael Snow <wikipedia(a)frontier.com> wrote:

...

On 11/30/2014 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

You seem to have misunderstood the scenario I laid out. I'm not talking about people using the IBAN to steal money out of a Wikimedia account, I depend on the bank to have security robust enough to prevent that. The scenario I'm discussing involves people using the IBAN to fraudulently pay money to Wikimedia from someone else's account, such as a credit card. That account does not necessarily have an IBAN or chip-and-pin security, and at any rate whatever security it has was already breached. The payment would just be a method for the fraudsters to verify the success of the breach. The result would be added costs to Wikimedia and to the financial institutions involved, in order to identify and reverse the fraudulent transactions. To respond to some of the other questions raised about my scenario: This was a risk scenario I presented to answer the question, "How can posting a bank account number lead to fraud?" It may or may not have been a factor in the decision to not publicly post the IBAN, I don't know. I'm also not suggesting that this scenario is unique to IBAN, it could affect any type of account number that accepts payments (for example, accounts you might have for various utility services, such as water, electricity, telephone, or internet). It's also possible thru PayPal, of course, and that's the reason for having a $1 minimum donation requirement, among other protections. I don't know if there are difficulties with establishing comparable security around the IBAN, or if it's more a matter of a cost-benefit analysis indicating that it's worth the resources to deal with this for donations via Wikimedia's online payment form, but not for donations directly to Wikimedia's bank account. Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that according to the European Payments Council, it seems payees receiving SEPA credit transfers are advised to communicate the IBAN "only where necessary": http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit- transfer/iban-and-bic/ (and likewise for payers making direct debit payments). It may simply be that the fundraising team has been advised that this is more consistent with providing the IBAN upon request, rather than posting it on the website. Not to disparage what may be common practice at other organizations, but that does seem like a natural conclusion to draw from that guidance. --Michael Snow _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Risker

5:31 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Ummm. We have all kinds of ways for people to donate, and the process for transferring is pretty clear. Having been in a situation where I had to make bank transfers, I felt honestly like I was handing over the keys to the kingdom just for the right to pay someone money: far more personal information was required than is needed for any other means of payment that I've ever used. Banks in Canada regularly call their customers for transactions under $5 because fraud is so common - and that is with chip cards and PINs. Risker On 1 December 2014 at 00:08, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 11/30/2014 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > An IBAN number is NOT a credit card ... You need a ping number in > combination with some smart card functionality in order to make it

work..

The combination generates a number that is always different..

pay

money to Wikimedia from someone else's account, such as a credit card.

That

account does not necessarily have an IBAN or chip-and-pin security, and

any rate whatever security it has was already breached. The payment would just be a method for the fraudsters to verify the success of the breach. The result would be added costs to Wikimedia and to the financial institutions involved, in order to identify and reverse the fraudulent transactions. To respond to some of the other questions raised about my scenario: This was a risk scenario I presented to answer the question, "How can posting a bank account number lead to fraud?" It may or may not have

been a

factor in the decision to not publicly post the IBAN, I don't know. I'm also not suggesting that this scenario is unique to IBAN, it could affect any type of account number that accepts payments (for example, accounts you might have for various utility services, such as water, electricity, telephone, or internet). It's also possible thru PayPal, of course, and that's the reason for having a $1 minimum donation

requirement,

among other protections. I don't know if there are difficulties with establishing comparable security around the IBAN, or if it's more a

matter

of a cost-benefit analysis indicating that it's worth the resources to

deal

with this for donations via Wikimedia's online payment form, but not for donations directly to Wikimedia's bank account. Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that according to the European Payments Council, it seems payees receiving SEPA credit transfers are advised to communicate the IBAN "only where necessary": http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit- transfer/iban-and-bic/ (and likewise for payers making direct debit payments). It may simply be that the fundraising team has been advised

that

this is more consistent with providing the IBAN upon request, rather than posting it on the website. Not to disparage what may be common practice

other organizations, but that does seem like a natural conclusion to draw from that guidance. --Michael Snow _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Kim Bruning

2 Dec 2 Dec

4:35 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

That's very interesting. However, as stated, in .nl (and SEPA) one pays people using IBAN accounts. One not-pays people using not-IBAN. iDeal is a handy dandy web interface to do (essentially) IBAN transfers. Them's the options; whether I personally like them or not.[*] c'est tout! Incidentally, for a SEPA area bank transfer, at a typical .nl bank, you fill in the person's name, their IBAN Account Number [**], and the amount; then click send. [***]. [****] Alternately, iDeal fills this out for you, and you just click "Approve". [****] Re:Fraud: one bank I work for has the policy to hunt down, find, and prosecute every single fraud at all costs, and to the fullest extent possible under law. They do so as a matter of honour. Suffice to say this does tend to reduce the incidence of fraud in the country O:-) sincerely, Kim Bruning [*] Actually I kinda like these options; but I do live just ~2 hours from Brussels, so things tend to work well for me. YMMV for people who live in some island kingdom or what have you O:-) [**] International Bank Account Number account number; brought to you by the department of redundancy department. [***] For WMF I'd love it if they also ticked "repeat monthly" ;-) [****] Not counting security procedures. :-P On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 12:31:23AM -0500, Risker wrote:

...

On 11/30/2014 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > An IBAN number is NOT a credit card ... You need a ping number in > combination with some smart card functionality in order to make it

work..

The combination generates a number that is always different..

pay

money to Wikimedia from someone else's account, such as a credit card.

That

account does not necessarily have an IBAN or chip-and-pin security, and

been a

requirement,

among other protections. I don't know if there are difficulties with establishing comparable security around the IBAN, or if it's more a

matter

of a cost-benefit analysis indicating that it's worth the resources to

deal

that

this is more consistent with providing the IBAN upon request, rather than posting it on the website. Not to disparage what may be common practice

-- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72

Frédéric Schütz

1 Dec 1 Dec

12:08 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

On 29/11/14 10:05, Lodewijk wrote:

...

Thanks for the clarification. It's surprising to me that posting a bank account number could lead to fraud - the bank systems are supposed to be robust enough for that.

My understanding is this is mostly a problem in the US, from what I heard from Garfield. I asked him because Wikimedia CH broadcast its IBAN number everywhere for the fundraising, so I would have liked to know of any potential problem, but there does not seem to be any in Europe. (I don't know much about the US banking system, but it looks like knowing someone's account number may indeed be enough to wreak havoc on their account; see for example the recollection of computer scientist Donald Knuth, who had to stop sending checks to people who discover errors in his books: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/news08.html)

...

I know that all charities in the Netherlands post this number on their website - maybe it could be worth while to reach out and see if switching banks might improve the security, if Citibank didn't fix it themselves?

It is definitively the case in Switzerland too -- and the reason why we (Wikimedia CH) are very efficient at low cost fundraising: the marginal cost of direct bank deposit is close to 0%. And we get about 6 bank deposits for every credit card donation. F.

...

Anyway, best of luck with fixing the underlying problem! Best, Lodewijk On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 12:13 AM, Garfield Byrd <gbyrd(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

Hi Lodewijk, Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into

maintenance

bank > transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor > Services team. > > We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and

there

> will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few

months,

which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much

faster > and easier way. > > Thanks! > Pats > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk <

lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org>

wrote: > A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, because > the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.

At >> the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then,

there

> have >> been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors. >> >> No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the

most

> common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply refers > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page > < >

https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPag…

>> > only > allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply

sends

temporarily

> suspended? > > If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send

the >> donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in

the

>> local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers

both

>> iDEAL and IBAN >> <http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland>). >> >> One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't > quite >> get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and

that

>> this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go

through

> all >> kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip

bank

>> transfer... >> >> Best, >> >> Lodewijk >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> -- Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations Wikimedia Foundation office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764 cell: +1 (415) 816 3349 fax: +1 (415) 284 9511 ppena(a)wikimedia.org *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in

the

Tim Landscheidt

12:36 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Frédéric Schütz <schutz(a)mathgen.ch> wrote:

...

> Thanks for the clarification. It's surprising to me that posting a bank > account number could lead to fraud - the bank systems are supposed to be > robust enough for that.

...

[...]

Lodewijk

7:25 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

just for the record: the IBAN we have been talking about al this time is the bank account number of a WMF bank account in euro, at a bank located in Paris (and previously in Brussels). Of course the WMF has a euro bank account, it would be odd if they didn't. Lodewijk ps: no need to shout. On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 1:36 AM, Tim Landscheidt <tim(a)tim-landscheidt.de> wrote:

...

Frédéric Schütz <schutz(a)mathgen.ch> wrote:

> Thanks for the clarification. It's surprising to me that posting a bank > account number could lead to fraud - the bank systems are supposed to be > robust enough for that.

[...]

Nothing prevents WMF from opening a bank account in Europe; in fact given that most of the requests in this thread orig- inate from within the SEPA region, having a bank account outside it would be very inconvient for many donors. Tim _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Lodewijk

18 Dec 18 Dec

10:39 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Hi Pats, Please be aware that iDEAL is still not functional on the Dutch fundraiser page. Also, IBAN is missing. Best, Lodewijk On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote:

...

A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,

because

the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there

have

refers

you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer

(using

an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page <

https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPag…

temporarily

suspended? If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send

the

quite

get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through

all

-- Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations Wikimedia Foundation office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764 cell: +1 (415) 816 3349 fax: +1 (415) 284 9511 ppena(a)wikimedia.org *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate. <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Gerard Meijssen

19 Dec 19 Dec

7:33 a.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Hoi, I blogged about this [1]. By ignoring the rest of the world, they effectively give ownership to the WMF to the USA way of working. On a more practical level, they hand over money for their convenience that is in my opinion an absolute waste. By using a UK organisation to process donations, they ignore the UK chapter while they make demands of chapters to raise funds. PS I do hope the WMF gets all the money it is seeking. Thanks, GerardM [1] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/12/wikimedia-foundation-does-not-ge… On 18 December 2014 at 23:39, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote:

...

maintenance

mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :) We know the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline bank transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor Services team. We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months, which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much faster and easier way. Thanks! Pats On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org

> wrote: > > > A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, > because > > the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.

> > the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there > have > > been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors. > > > > No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most > > common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply > refers > > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer > (using > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page > > < > > >

https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPag…

> > > > > only > > allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply

sends

> > you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment. > > > > What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal > > swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer > > required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get > temporarily > > suspended? > > > > If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send > the > > donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in

the

> > local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers

both

that

> > this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through > all > > kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip

bank

> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > -- > > Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations > Wikimedia Foundation > office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764 > cell: +1 (415) 816 3349 > fax: +1 (415) 284 9511 > ppena(a)wikimedia.org > > *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in

the

> sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate. > <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>* > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > <

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.w…

Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Mathias Damour

9:13 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Le 19/12/2014 08:33, Gerard Meijssen a écrit :

...

+1 Funny I first read your last sentence: ''PS I do hope the WMF gets all the money its sinking.'' ... -- Mathias Damour User:Astirmays

Patricia Pena

8:30 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Hi Lodewijk, Thanks for letting us know! IDEAL has been back up in the page, but we recently made a few changes that ended up accidentally removing the option from the form. It's all fixed now :) Regarding IBAN: Finance is still working with our bank and we should be sending an update once we hear from them. Thanks, Pats On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote:

...

maintenance

> wrote: > > > A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, > because > > the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.

https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPag…

> > > > > only > > allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply

sends

the

> > local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers

both

that

> > this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through > all > > kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip

bank

the

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.w…

Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Lodewijk

8:56 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Hi Pats, Thanks. Lodewijk On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 9:30 PM, Patricia Pena <ppena(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

Hi Pats, Please be aware that iDEAL is still not functional on the Dutch

fundraiser

page. Also, IBAN is missing. Best, Lodewijk On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote: > > Hi Patricia, > > Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite > understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of

emailing

the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something? Best, Lodewijk On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena <ppena(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: > Hi Lodewijk, > > Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into

maintenance >> mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :) We

know

>> the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this >> option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline >> bank >> transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor >> Services team. >> >> We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and

there

>> will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few

months,

>> which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much >> faster >> and easier way. >> >> Thanks! >> Pats >> >> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk <

lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org

> >> wrote: >> >> > A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, >> because >> > the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do

this.

At >> > the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then,

there

>> have >> > been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors. >> > >> > No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the

most

> > common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply > refers > > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer > (using > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page > > < > > >

https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPag…

> > > > > only > > allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply

sends >> > you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment. >> > >> > What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a

legal

>> > swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no

longer

>> > required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get >> temporarily >> > suspended? >> > >> > If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to

send

> the > > donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in

the

> > local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers

both

that >> > this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go

through

> all > > kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip

bank >> > transfer... >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Lodewijk >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> > Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

, >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org

?subject=unsubscribe>

> > > > > -- > > Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations > Wikimedia Foundation > office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764 > cell: +1 (415) 816 3349 > fax: +1 (415) 284 9511 > ppena(a)wikimedia.org > > *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in

the

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.w…

> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Patricia Pena

6 Jan 6 Jan

6:32 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Hi Lodewijk and all, Thank you for your feedback regarding the IBAN information. As an update, the Finance team worked with our bank to improve the security and fraud protection of our bank accounts so that we can now disclose the bank account information on our donation pages. We have updated the USD and EUR account information, and will add the remaining currencies as we get the green-light from our bank. Thanks and Happy New Year! Pats Pena On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote:

...

Hi Pats, Thanks. Lodewijk On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 9:30 PM, Patricia Pena <ppena(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

Hi Lodewijk, Thanks for letting us know! IDEAL has been back up in the page, but we recently made a few changes that ended up accidentally removing the

option

from the form. It's all fixed now :) Regarding IBAN: Finance is still working with our bank and we should be sending an update once we hear from them. Thanks, Pats On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote:

Hi Pats, Please be aware that iDEAL is still not functional on the Dutch

fundraiser > page. Also, IBAN is missing. > > Best, > Lodewijk > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Lodewijk <

lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org>

wrote: > > Hi Patricia, > > Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite > understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of

emailing

> the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something? > > Best, > Lodewijk > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena <ppena(a)wikimedia.org

wrote: > Hi Lodewijk, > > Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into

maintenance >> mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :) We

know > >> the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported

this

> >> option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support

offline

>> bank >> transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor >> Services team. >> >> We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and

there

>> will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few

months,

>> which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much >> faster >> and easier way. >> >> Thanks! >> Pats >> >> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk <

lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org > > > >> wrote: > >> > >> > A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to

fundraise,

>> because >> > the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do

this.

At >> > the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then,

there

>> have >> > been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors. >> > >> > No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the

most > >> > common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking'

simply

> >> refers > >> > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank

transfer

> (using > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page > > < > > >

https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPag…

> > > > > only > > allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply

sends >> > you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment. >> > >> > What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a

legal

>> > swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no

longer

>> > required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get >> temporarily >> > suspended? >> > >> > If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to

send > >> the > >> > donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate

the

> > local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers

both >> > iDEAL and IBAN >> > <http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland

). > >> > > >> > One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but

didn't

> quite > > get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and

that >> > this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go

through

> all > > kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

, >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org

?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations > >> Wikimedia Foundation > >> office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764 > >> cell: +1 (415) 816 3349 > >> fax: +1 (415) 284 9511 > >> ppena(a)wikimedia.org > >> > >> *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share

the

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.w…

> > > >> Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

, > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org

?subject=unsubscribe>

the

Federico Leva (Nemo)

11:03 p.m.

New subject: Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Patricia Pena, 06/01/2015 19:32:

...

worked with our bank to improve the security and fraud protection of our bank accounts so that we can now disclose the bank account information on our donation pages.

Great! Can these important security tips/steps be documented on a Meta-Wiki page, so that other affiliates can ensure their security as well? Nemo

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31 comments

15 participants

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participants (15)

Bence Damokos
Federico Leva (Nemo)
Frédéric Schütz
Garfield Byrd
Gerard Meijssen
Jan Ainali
Kim Bruning
Lodewijk
Mathias Damour
Michael Snow
MZMcBride
Patricia Pena
Risker
rupert THURNER
Tim Landscheidt