If humour offend people then the problem is not with people feeling
Humour is often based on common understanding and common background between
the person making a joke.
I can joke with really good friend making irony and derision about things
that are in my values, they know it and will get the irony.
I should not do that to a wider audience (they won't get it, and I have lot
of chances to offend people).
We may err sometimes and still offend people by making something we think
is humour, when told I see no other good path than presenting excuses.
I'm seriously disappointed to see such piece published in the Wikipedia
Le mer. 6 mars 2019 à 09:53, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> a écrit :
It is an old story, artists and authors using humour
and parody that
they genuinely believed was an observation, not an attack on anyone.
That a comedian or an author had good intentions, or the trope that
complainers "need to get a sense of humour", does not stop us knowing
that the promotion of stereotypes or other marginalization of a
minority, causes actual harm, real distress, and for the targeted
group there are long term consequences that come from having less self
Peter, history is against you and it always has been. It does not take
long browsing Wikipedia to understand why we all need to stand up and
callout thoughtless jokes and bad stereotypes, rather than being
intimidated by free speech fallacious arguments that claim "it is your
fault for looking at it". I suggest reflecting over how blackface
minstrelsy was defended as harmless and hilarious fun that persisted
for well over a hundred years, or in this century how parodies about
trans people that were considered harmless twenty years ago, are
correctly called abusive now. I'm not even going to touch what
we can learn from "parody" in the 1930s.
Good faith is superduper, we should avoid presuming bad intentions,
especially if a first mistake that will not be repeated. This does not
stop us Wikipedians having a shared duty to ensure that through our
website we are not complicit in creating bad outcomes. Seriously who
disagrees with that, and if this is what you mean by "political
purposes to push an agenda", sure please join us and sign up to our
open knowledge agenda.
Comedian Kumail Nanjiani, "Comedians making transphobic jokes: What
side do you wanna be on?"
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 07:26, Peter Southwood
I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this
has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion
that they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves.
Accusing a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender
identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that
that was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining
a joke, seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to
push an agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not
used by reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but
that is what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and
they are even worse.
As far as I am aware, we are having the
conversation freely, so yes, by
The "joked about party" can express
what they feel about such "jokes",
and are doing so to the extent that
they appear to consider it quite OK to
assume that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true
because they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is
irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because
they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not
feel personally targeted too, but I don’t know what their reasoning is.
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On
Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+
Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some
not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence
the reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about
jokes on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be
used to express it might just seem superfluous and look like an
overreaction, but it does echo a deep suffering which takes place after
being joked about virtually everywhere and not being able to express
opinion when on the otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such
jokes. Advocates of freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions.
Just look at what happened recently in France
around the Ligue du lol
affair, and maybe you will understand what is at stake here
Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they
target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ people,
minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same
group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are
disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to
problematic behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express
freely what they feel about these jokes.
I have a request : can we have the conversation
This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the
work done by people like you.
Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement
and gender issues are
needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the
maybe not in humour tone.
To finish I want to thank Barbara from the
bottom of my heart for
showing willingness to apologize and understand (because
the effect of this
is soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for
If all protagonists could now calm down and
consider that the very fact
the conversation is taking place is positive, I think
we would all have
gained in freedom of speech.
Nattes à chat
> Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net>
a écrit :
> "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
> Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:email@example.com] On
Of Michel Vuijlsteke
> Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+
> I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a
> The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as
> sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type
>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
>> final time. How embarrassing!
>> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
>> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
>> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
>> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
>> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
>> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
>> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
>> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
>> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
>> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
>> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
>> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
>> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
>> making any correction. I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
>> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
>> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
>> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
>> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
>> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
>> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
>> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
>> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
>> article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
>> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
>> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
>> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
>> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
>> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
>> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.
>> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
>> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
>> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
>> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
>> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
>> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
>> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
>> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
>> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
>> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
>> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
>> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
>> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
>> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
>> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
>> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
>> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
>> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
>> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
>> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
>> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
>> Wikimedia projects.
>> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
>> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
>> the coauthors.
>> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
>> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
>> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
>> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
>> without action toThanks,day. At the time of writing this email,
>> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
>> it is unclear who is doing this.
>> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
>> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
>> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
>> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
>> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
>> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
>> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
>> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
>> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple." No other
>> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
>> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
>> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
>> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
>> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
>> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
>> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
>> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
>> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you
>> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
>> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
>> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org