R.O.C.: Thank you for this excellent summary. In answer to the one question you ask about "Wikimedia" - this is also a trademark of the Foundation. It is usually used in this sense to mean more than just Wikipedia, the encyclopedia project. Of course, one of the major advances of zh. Is the new Chinese Wikinews site, so it is entirely appropriate for the conference to give people interested in any wiki issues the opportunity to communicate about any project. I am absolutely not the right person to make any decisions about the use of trademarks; my strict legal opinion is that the Foundation does own the marks and is within its rights to license their use. Personally, I can think of nothing better to help advance Wikiprojects in Chinese than allowing for the use of these marks to promote the sites. I leave it to those closest to the conference on the Chinese side and the Chapter Coordinator/Wikimania project leader and her associates to work out the details of this. The trademark committee knows it has my meager legal blessing in proceeding with a license for the August 2006 HK event at full speed. I can't thank you enough for your eloquent and obviously heart-felt interest in bridging the gap between these two populations. You are to be congratulated. -BradP -----Original Message----- From: foundation-l-bounces(a)wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces@wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of R.O.C Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:02 PM To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong" it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are misunderstandings. i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese and english. here is some information that i would like to provide. 1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia project page ( http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9…) in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.) 2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources, neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the chinese projects together with the foundation and the international community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed. 3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese languages are larger than that between any two western european languages. even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in chinese. 4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia. the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all difficulties. 5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting. there were several considerations. 5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston. 5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese (probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese conference will probably target largely on local or chinese firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring fund/resources. 5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania. 5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it convenient for both attendees and volunteers. 6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster. 6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be better organization and managements with regards to accountability. 6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture gaps between the two parts of our community. 6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese conference is "���ľS�����" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia annual conference"). 6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either). 6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term. hope that this is helpful. roc (User:R.O.C) -- �� 2006/3/16��Anthere <Anthere9(a)yahoo.com> ׫���� ��һ����ʲ�N�҂�Ҫ�k�������������������W���о�ָ�������c���ľS��������Ҫ�����Ї���ꑡ�̨����߀����ۣ��������Ҳ���S���A��ʹ���˿��څ��c���ľS����Ӌ�����҂����Բ�ͬ���ң����ƽ����Ҫ�Ը��N���rͨӍܛ�w“�j���dz�ϣ����Ҋ�棬�@�ǵ�һ��Ŀ�ģ��Kϣ���������ľS���������Q�A�ĭh���������Ć��}�� �ڶ�����ʲ�N�҂��ĕr�g�x�ú�2006���H�S��ý�w������N�����@�ǿ��]���K�����е����ľS���˶�������--�؄e�ǽ�������--ȥ���Ӈ��H�S��ý�w����������҂����r�g���ڇ��H�S��ý�w���֮�ᣬ���Ͽ��]���󲿷����ľS���˶��Ǜ]�н��������ČW������ˌ��r�g���������g���e�k�Ĵ_�Еr�g�K�ǻI��С�M���ЛQ���������_��׌���оS����ͶƱ�x���ĕr�g�����x�ڇ��H�S��ý�w���֮�ᣬҲ���ÿ���׌������ȥ���H�S��ý�w����ľS���˂������͟o�����c�ľS���˂�������򞡣 �������Ƿ�Y�����ľS���˵��������æ���H�S��ý�w��������ǹ�ʡ�����ķ������ҵĻش��ǣ����켴ʹ���ľS���˅��c�ˇ��H�S��ý�w����ĻI�乤�����҂���Ȼ���e�k���ĵľS������� http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9… reasons > > why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference. > > -- > > KaurJmeb(KJ) > > KJ... Absolutely no one questions the fact chinese editors want a > conference :-) It is *good* that your community is now big enough and > united enough to do one. > Our only worries are that there might be a confusion of names between > conferences (this has been cleared up) and that three meetings are > done nearly at the same time. > > At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more > and more frequent as time. > Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German > editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several > meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as > well (in french)... > Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well. > > Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem. > Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking. > In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste, > myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are > Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in > english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities > where many people do not speak english at all. French people generally > are *bad* in english. Those of us who can speak english can help > bridge between communities. > > I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more > often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian > and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do > the same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-) > > ant > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l(a)wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer under IRS Circular 230: Unless expressly stated otherwise in this transmission, nothing contained in this message is intended or written to be used, nor may it be relied upon or used, (1) by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended and/or (2) by any person to support the promotion or marketing of or to recommend any Federal tax transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this message. 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