Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

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Wikimania 2014 Evaluation Survey...

Lodewijk

17 Nov 2014 17 Nov '14

8:28 p.m.

A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, because the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there have been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors. No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply refers you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page <https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPage&country=NL&uselang=en&utm_medium=spontaneous&utm_source=fr-redir&utm_campaign=spontaneous> only allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment. What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily suspended? If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both iDEAL and IBAN <http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland>). One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't quite get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through all kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank transfer... Best, Lodewijk

Show replies by date

Federico Leva (Nemo)

17 Nov 17 Nov

9:01 p.m.

Moreover, because fundraising reports are now so stingy, we can't even know the (per-country) effects of such decisions (cc fundraiser@), hence public accountability is impossible. * https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fundraising/2013-14_Repor… * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fundraising_2012/Report#Totals_by_coun… Nemo Lodewijk, 17/11/2014 20:28:

...

Walter Vermeir

10:42 p.m.

Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:

...

you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page

Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and expensive. There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ± 337 million Europeans , people can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses. Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card. But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems. A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct. But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good to be willing to make an donation. Walter

Liam Wyatt

18 Nov 18 Nov

8:55 a.m.

This strikes me as yet another example of a WMF department forgetting to inform relevant stakeholders as soon as is appropriate, when decisions are made... In just the last few days, on this mailing list alone, there have been controversies on: - not telling chapters' treasurers that a team had been hired and a financial auditing process initiated (the Finance Fellows), until after it had already begun. - Not informing the Russians that their country's donations were no longer accepted, leaving them to fend off angry media/donors. - Not informing the Dutch that donations in their country's most popular online money-transfer system was being temporarily stopped. None of these things needed to be controversial or a problem if they'd been explained to the relevant people up-front. None of them required advanced notice if that was not possible for operational reasons (although it would have been nice). All of them are the WMF's preogative to make those decisions. But, crucially, ALL of them have people in the Wikimedia movement who are affected by the decision. According to the complaints raised on this list, None of those affected people were informed as soon as reasonably possible. Furthermore their initial, private, enquiries produced apparently-unsatisfactory answers, leading to them feeling forced to raise their concerns here. All of this chips-away at community good-will, makes the WMF feel under-siege (and I do acknowledge my own contribution to that feeling by this email, for which I apologise), and creates a disjointed public-face when press/donors/readers ask community members "what's happening with xyz?" and the community-member forced to reply "this is the first I've heard about it". To help avoid similar things happening in the future, can I propose that any time a public-facing decision is being made by a WMF team, the question "who in the community is likely to be affected by this decision?" be asked as a standard procedure. Then take the time to proactively inform those people. (Some WMF teams do this really well already, I want to acknowledge!) In the examples above that would be the treasurers' list, the Russian media contacts, and the Dutch OTRS team. Ideally those people could be involved/consulted in the decision itself (but that's not always possible) and they will be able to help respond to the issue in the appropriate way. We're all on the same team... -- wittylama.com Peace, love & metadata

Kim Bruning

22 Nov 22 Nov

1:34 a.m.

To amplify: Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard, default, baseline way to make payments at all. After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN) account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN. If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN. Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal accounts. Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone. iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement. sincerely, Kim On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:

...

Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:

you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page

Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and expensive. There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses. Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card. But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems. A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct. But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good to be willing to make an donation. Walter _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Lodewijk

8:42 a.m.

It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100% sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they choose not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation. I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed... Best, Lodewijk On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <kim(a)bruning.xs4all.nl> wrote:

...

Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk: > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer

(using

an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page

Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and expensive. There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses. Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card. But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems. A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct. But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good to be willing to make an donation. Walter _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines

Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

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Chris Keating

25 Nov 25 Nov

2:10 p.m.

Interestingly I've just received a fundraising email localised to the UK which doesn't offer any opportunity to give by direct debit. This is the main form of regular giving in the UK, and the alternative that is offered (regular gifts via credit card) is generally deprecated as it gives the donor far less control over their money. I know the WMF used to have a solution to handle more payment methods - I wonder if that's been discontinued for reasons of cost/simplicity? (The email also doesn't appear to include any of the learning about the right ask amounts to ask for monthly gifts in the UK from the 2011 campaign but that might be my fault for not publishing those results ;) ) On 22 Nov 2014 07:42, "Lodewijk" <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote:

...

Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk: > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer

(using > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page > > Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different > from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to > an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex

and

> expensive. > > There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has > never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. > > The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a > fair chunk of the globe. > >

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption

> > Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people > can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without > additional expenses. > > Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to > an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not > free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. > > > The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. > Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card. > > But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to > total other payment systems. > > A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using > cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my > dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a

cheque

> since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct. > > But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when > you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made > for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so

good

to be willing to make an donation. Walter _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines

Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

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Kim Bruning

26 Nov 26 Nov

2:04 p.m.

Just following up, Has WMNL now received the sought information? sincerely, Kim Bruning On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:

...

Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk: > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer

(using

an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page

Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and expensive. There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses. Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card. But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems. A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct. But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good to be willing to make an donation. Walter _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines

Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

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Lodewijk

7:54 p.m.

To clarify: I was looking for information from my capacity as a volunteer - I don't know if WMNL did or did not receive any information whatsoever. I can only say that I did not receive a satisfying answer - but that should be no surprise. Best, Lodewijk On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Kim Bruning <kim(a)bruning.xs4all.nl> wrote:

...

Just following up, Has WMNL now received the sought information? sincerely, Kim Bruning On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:

choose

not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation. I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed... Best, Lodewijk On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <kim(a)bruning.xs4all.nl>

wrote:

> > To amplify: > > Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires > electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard, > default, baseline way to make payments at all. > > After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN) > account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been

converted

> to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN. > > If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support

IBAN.

> > Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or

paypal

> accounts. > > Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone. > > iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline > requirement. > > sincerely, > Kim > > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote: > > Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk: > > > > > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer > (using > > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page > > > > Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different > > from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account

> > an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex

and

> > expensive. > > > > There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has > > never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. > > > > The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a > > fair chunk of the globe. > > > >

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption

> > > > Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,

people

> > can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without > > additional expenses. > > > > Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments

> > an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly

not

> > free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. > > > > > > The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. > > Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card. > > > > But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to > > total other payment systems. > > > > A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people

using

> > cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my > > dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a

cheque

> > since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.

Extinct.

> > > > But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -

when

> > you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer

made

> > for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so

good

> > to be willing to make an donation. > > > > Walter > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

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Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

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rupert THURNER

27 Nov 27 Nov

9:20 a.m.

...

Just following up, Has WMNL now received the sought information? sincerely, Kim Bruning On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:

choose

wrote:

converted

> to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN. > > If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support

IBAN.

> > Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or

paypal

> > an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption

> > > > Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,

people

> > can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without > > additional expenses. > > > > Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments

> > an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly

not

using

> > cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my > > dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a

cheque

> > since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.

Extinct.

> > > > But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -

when

> > you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer

made

> > for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so

good

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines

Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

"charles andrès (WMCH)"

9:35 a.m.

I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF page…..

...

Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner(a)gmail.com> a écrit : The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the chapters page. Rupert On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" <kim(a)bruning.xs4all.nl> wrote:

Just following up, Has WMNL now received the sought information? sincerely, Kim Bruning On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:

choose

wrote:

converted

> to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN. > > If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support

IBAN.

> > Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or

paypal

> accounts. > > Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone. > > iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline > requirement. > > sincerely, > Kim > > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote: >> Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk: >> >>> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer > (using >>> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page >> >> Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different >> from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account

>> an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex

and

>> expensive. >> >> There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has >> never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. >> >> The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a >> fair chunk of the globe. >> >>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption

>> >> Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,

people

>> can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without >> additional expenses. >> >> Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments

>> an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly

not

>> free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. >> >> >> The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. >> Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card. >> >> But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to >> total other payment systems. >> >> A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people

using

>> cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my >> dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a

cheque

>> since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.

Extinct.

>> >> But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -

when

>> you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer

made

>> for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so

good

>> to be willing to make an donation. >> >> Walter >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines

Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

Patricia Pena

28 Nov 28 Nov

11:45 p.m.

All, The local chapter processes payments in Switzerland and manages fundraising banners and payment systems implementation. WMF is not running fundraising banners in Switzerland. If you spot any problems or issues, please do inform the local chapter. Thanks, Pats On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:35 AM, "charles andrès (WMCH)" < charles.andres.wmch(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF page…..

Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner(a)gmail.com> a

écrit :

The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the chapters page. Rupert On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" <kim(a)bruning.xs4all.nl> wrote: > Just following up, > > Has WMNL now received the sought information? > > sincerely, > Kim Bruning > > > On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote: >> It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not

100%

>> sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend

- I

>> am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why

the

>> WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they > choose >> not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and

>> Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being >> allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all >> speculation. >> >> I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there

was a

>> few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being

fed

>> canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and >> there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank >> transfer that cannot be disclosed... >> >> Best, >> Lodewijk >> >> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <kim(a)bruning.xs4all.nl> > wrote: >> >>> >>> To amplify: >>> >>> Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires >>> electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the

standard,

>>> default, baseline way to make payments at all. >>> >>> After registering a business, the very next action is to open an

(IBAN)

>>> account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been > converted >>> to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN. >>> >>> If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support > IBAN. >>> >>> Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or > paypal >>> accounts. >>> >>> Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone. >>> >>> iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline >>> requirement. >>> >>> sincerely, >>> Kim >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote: >>>> Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk: >>>> >>>>> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer >>> (using >>>>> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page >>>> >>>> Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different >>>> from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account > to >>>> an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex > and >>>> expensive. >>>> >>>> There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has >>>> never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. >>>> >>>> The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a >>>> fair chunk of the globe. >>>> >>>> >

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption

>>>> >>>> Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , > people >>>> can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without >>>> additional expenses. >>>> >>>> Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments > to >>>> an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly > not >>>> free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. >>>> >>>> >>>> The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. >>>> Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card. >>>> >>>> But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to >>>> total other payment systems. >>>> >>>> A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people > using >>>> cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my >>>> dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a > cheque >>>> since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. > Extinct. >>>> >>>> But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - > when >>>> you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer > made >>>> for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so > good >>>> to be willing to make an donation. >>>> >>>> Walter >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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Lodewijk

11:49 p.m.

Hi Pats, maybe as a little background: Charles Andres, who you're responding to, is actually an employee of Wikimedia CH. Your response might still be valid - I can't judge that - but it sounds odd to me as a relative outsider :) Best, Lodewijk On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Patricia Pena <ppena(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF page…..

Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner(a)gmail.com> a

écrit :

100%

>> sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend

- I

>> am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why

the >>> WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they >> choose >>> not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this,

and

as >>> Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer

being

>> allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all >> speculation. >> >> I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there

was a

>> few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being

fed >>> canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that

and

>> there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank >> transfer that cannot be disclosed... >> >> Best, >> Lodewijk >> >> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <kim(a)bruning.xs4all.nl> > wrote: >> >>> >>> To amplify: >>> >>> Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires >>> electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the

standard,

>>> default, baseline way to make payments at all. >>> >>> After registering a business, the very next action is to open an

(IBAN) >>>> account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been >> converted >>>> to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN. >>>> >>>> If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support >> IBAN. >>>> >>>> Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or >> paypal >>>> accounts. >>>> >>>> Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone. >>>> >>>> iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline >>>> requirement. >>>> >>>> sincerely, >>>> Kim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote: >>>>> Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk: >>>>> >>>>>> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank

transfer

>>>> (using >>>>>> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page >>>>> >>>>> Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very

different

>>>>> from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account >> to >>>>> an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where

complex

>> and >>>>> expensive. >>>>> >>>>> There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has >>>>> never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. >>>>> >>>>> The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in

>>>> fair chunk of the globe. >>>> >>>> >

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption >>>>> >>>>> Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , >> people >>>>> can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without >>>>> additional expenses. >>>>> >>>>> Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international

payments

>> to >>>>> an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly >> not >>>>> free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. >>>>> Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit

card.

>>>>> >>>>> But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used

>>>>> total other payment systems. >>>>> >>>>> A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people >> using >>>>> cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember

>>>>> dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a >> cheque >>>>> since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. >> Extinct. >>>>> >>>>> But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - >> when >>>>> you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer >> made >>>>> for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so >> good >>>>> to be willing to make an donation. >>>>> >>>>> Walter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>>> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> Unsubscribe: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org

?subject=unsubscribe>

>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

, >>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org

?subject=unsubscribe>

>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> -- >> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] >> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 >> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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-- Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations Wikimedia Foundation office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764 cell: +1 (415) 816 3349 fax: +1 (415) 284 9511 ppena(a)wikimedia.org *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate. <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Frédéric Schütz

29 Nov 29 Nov

12:07 a.m.

On 28/11/14 23:49, Lodewijk wrote:

...

maybe as a little background: Charles Andres, who you're responding to, is actually an employee of Wikimedia CH. Your response might still be valid - I can't judge that - but it sounds odd to me as a relative outsider :)

Indeed, I think Patricia missed the point of Rupert and Charles' emails. I have just tested myself from a computer on a Swiss IP address, opening 20 times the donation page, I get about half of the time the WM CH landing page, and the other half the WMF landing page. There is nothing WM CH can do, it is a problem with the redirection link on the WMF servers -- and it is obviously pretty annoying for us (WM CH). So far, we haven't heard anything from the WMF after Rupert first spotted the problem (thanks !). Frédéric

...

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Patricia Pena <ppena(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF page…..

Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner(a)gmail.com> a

écrit :

100%

>> sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend

- I

>> am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why

the >>> WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they >> choose >>> not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this,

and

as >>> Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer

being

>> allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all >> speculation. >> >> I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there

was a

>> few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being

fed >>> canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that

and

standard,

>>> default, baseline way to make payments at all. >>> >>> After registering a business, the very next action is to open an

transfer

>>>> (using >>>>>> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page >>>>> >>>>> Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very

different

>>>>> from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account >> to >>>>> an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where

complex

>>>> fair chunk of the globe. >>>> >>>> >

payments

card.

>>>>> >>>>> But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used

>>>>> total other payment systems. >>>>> >>>>> A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people >> using >>>>> cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember

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?subject=unsubscribe>

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participants (10)

"charles andrès (WMCH)"
Chris Keating
Federico Leva (Nemo)
Frédéric Schütz
Kim Bruning
Liam Wyatt
Lodewijk
Patricia Pena
rupert THURNER
Walter Vermeir