Re: [Foundation-l] foundation-l Digest, Vol 58, Issue 130 - Wikimedia-l

23 Jan 2009

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 Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Michael Bimmler)
    2. Re: Re-licensing (George Herbert)
    3. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Thomas Dalton)
    4. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Erik Moeller)
    5. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Ziko van Dijk)
    6. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Delphine M?nard)
    7. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Thomas Dalton)
    8. Re: Re-licensing (Thomas Dalton)
    9. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Brian)
   10. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Delphine M?nard)

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Message: 1
 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:11:20 +0100
 From: Michael Bimmler &lt;mbimmler(a)gmail.com&gt;
 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
 	&lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt;
 Message-ID:
 	&lt;353e9f360901231411k3f1bac0av7484a37e1fd98df(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Brian &lt;Brian.Mingus(a)colorado.edu&gt; wrote:
 Quit calling us
 trolls, crackpots and kooks and simply address the matters in a factual way. 

 Here's a suggestion for everyone: Stop the allusions to conspiracies
 ("tax-deductible money shifted to for-profit companies") *and* stop
 the name-calling.

 M.
 --
 Michael Bimmler
 mbimmler(a)gmail.com

 ------------------------------

 Message: 2
 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:13:05 -0800
 From: George Herbert &lt;george.herbert(a)gmail.com&gt;
 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Re-licensing
 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
 	&lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt;
 Message-ID:
 	&lt;38a7bf7c0901231413v14639b08g77fa1a696c9781ae(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:22 AM, Thomas Dalton &lt;thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote:

   I'm
sorry, Thomas, but until people learn to use jurisprudential
 concepts such as "moral rights" properly, I have a moral obligation to
 point out where they are used mistakenly.  This is not a question of
 "the world outside the legal profession" (and, indeed, if you were a
 member of the legal profession -- or a philosopher -- you wouldn't
 make the mistake of supposing this).  Philosophy of law is accessible
 to people who aren't lawyers -- even you. But it's clear that the word
 "moral rights" is being thrown around here by people who are only
 casually familiar with the concept. When you have actually given some
 study to jurisprudential philosophers (see, e.g., H.L.A. Hart and Lon
 Fuller) and can offer some more sophisticated philosophical analysis
 than you offer here, I will be able to take your pronunciamentos more
 seriously. 
 Where do you think laws come from? Do you think they appear from
 nowhere? They are created by politicians (and sometimes judges) based
 on moral values. Those moral values imply certain moral rights whether
 they are written down in statute (or case law) or not.

 Used relative to copyright law, the term unambiguously means what Mike is
 saying, the rights that Europe (and others) have assigned to actual authors
 distinct from copyright owners etc.

 The specific term as used in copyright law (as Mike says, a "term of the
 art" in that field) has no legal utility in the United States, as those
 rights in question are not acknowledged by US copyright law or precedent.

 This is a discussion about copyright law and licenses under / related to it,
 is it not?  And not philosophy writ large?

 There was a slight danger in the Foundation chosing to hire Mike as counsel,
 that he has a long-established tendency to poke fun at people ( cf. Godwin's
 Law, and more long painful Usenet discussions from 20 plus years ago than I
 care to remember at the moment...).  This is going over rather badly with
 some people's sense of moral indignation over licensing and copyright
 issues.
 HI, I AM NEW IN ALL THIS THING, PLEASE I NEED ALL OF YOU HELP ME.I AM CUBAN, AND MY
ENGLISH, IS NOT VERY GOOD,SO PLEASE SEND ME THE MESSAGES IN SPANISH, SO I CAN
UNDERSTAND
YOU.

...
  --
 -george william herbert
 george.herbert(a)gmail.com

 ------------------------------

 Message: 3
 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:13:23 +0000
 From: Thomas Dalton &lt;thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com&gt;
 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
 	&lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt;
 Message-ID:
 	&lt;a4359dff0901231413q4d5d26e2y524066da6453ce2c(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

 2009/1/23 Erik Moeller &lt;erik(a)wikimedia.org&gt;rg>:
  2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton
&lt;thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com&gt;om>:
 . Did you consider the PR cost when weighing it
all up? 
 Of course. It's a normal transaction and any noise about it is likely
 going to be ephemeral. We will continue to calmly and sensibly explain
 it to reasonable people, and that's all there is to it. 
 Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly explain it to me, then? How
 did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in
 Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept
 that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.)

 ------------------------------

 Message: 4
 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:20:10 -0800
 From: Erik Moeller &lt;erik(a)wikimedia.org&gt;
 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
 	&lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt;
 Message-ID:
 	&lt;b80736c80901231420j23f86c88kaf585cae6c9c7b7(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton &lt;thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com&gt;om>:
  Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly
explain it to me, then? How
 did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in
 Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept
 that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.) 
 I already named some of them - greater proximity, shared kitchen use,
 shared speakerphone use, established Internet connectivity. The other
 space we were looking at also had noise issues: open concept with two
 other tenants, and some noise every day at 6PM due to music lessons in
 the same building.
 --
 Erik M?ller
 Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

 Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

 ------------------------------

 Message: 5
 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:46:23 +0100
 From: Ziko van Dijk &lt;zvandijk(a)googlemail.com&gt;
 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
 	&lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt;
 Message-ID:
 	&lt;dcb629f40901231446w31e5e214i9d10410a121a8fbe(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 2009/1/23 Gerard Meijssen &lt;gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt;

 The natural state of these discussions is that there are always people
 pissing in the wind. That spoils things somewhat.

 Hear hear, true words in a typical Dutch wording. :-)
 I am amazed about the transparency and openess the staff members are giving
 here, and I am looking forward to the results of these splendid work
 conditions.

 Kind regards
 Ziko

 "Wer durch des Argwohns Brille schaut,
 sieht Raupen selbst im Sauerkraut."
 Wilhelm Busch

 --
 Ziko van Dijk
 NL-Silvolde

 ------------------------------

 Message: 6
 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 00:13:44 +0100
 From: Delphine M?nard &lt;notafishz(a)gmail.com&gt;
 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
 	&lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt;
 Message-ID:
 	&lt;453b6e50901231513r161f7f35i895af92d2efd5755(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 20:53, Brian &lt;Brian.Mingus(a)colorado.edu&gt; wrote:
  I'm glad someone is concerned about this
issue. Wikia has always smacked of
 "they wouldn't let us show ads on Wikipedia, so here is the for-profit
 branch of Wikipedia with ads." There are potential conflicts of interest at
 nearly every level of the Wikia/Wikipedia relationship. 
 I never thought I would say what comes next.
 As much as I have been a fierce defender of a clear cut between Wikia
 and Wikimedia, I must admit that I find this solution to be one of the
 best things that has happened to the usability project.

 About space: been there, and yes, Wikia's headquarters are a street
 away, so really easy to plan meetings and make sure things happen in
 coordinated fashion between the Wikimedia office and the Usability
 project.

 About working near Wikia: Wikia, as was said elsewhere, is one of the
 biggest Mediawiki users out there and therefore has, in my opinion,
 probably the best incentive to make sure that Mediawiki develops in a
 way that makes sense for the users. They already have a pretty big
 developper team, and having them at hand will definitely broaden the
 usability project vision on what a wiki can/should do to be more user
 friendly.

 Who more than a commercial user of Mediawiki has an interest in its
 evolution _for the best_ of users?

 I see absolutely no conflict of interest. Where? Seriously? Wikia is
 renting walls, tables and chairs to the Wikimedia Foundation, that's
 all. And on top of that, they bring to the coffee machine talks tons
 of ideas and experience in the daily use of the software.

 And frankly, without this thread, everyone would have forgotten the
 move two days from now and seen nothing in it. Gee, it's time to grow
 up and stop seeing the cabal everywhere.

 Cheers,

 Delphine
 --
 ~notafish

 NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost.
 Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org

 ------------------------------

 Message: 7
 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:16:45 +0000
 From: Thomas Dalton &lt;thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com&gt;
 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
 	&lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt;
 Message-ID:
 	&lt;a4359dff0901231516h761da0efu645e146f1f5145bb(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

 2009/1/23 Erik Moeller &lt;erik(a)wikimedia.org&gt;rg>:
  2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton
&lt;thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com&gt;om>:
  Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly
explain it to me, then? How
 did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in
 Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept
 that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.) 
 I already named some of them - greater proximity, shared kitchen use,
 shared speakerphone use, established Internet connectivity. The other
 space we were looking at also had noise issues: open concept with two
 other tenants, and some noise every day at 6PM due to music lessons in
 the same building. 
 I was looking for something a little more quantitative. I know it is
 difficult to quantify these things, which is why, in my experience,
 charities usually err on the side of caution. In fact, the model
 governing documents for the UK Charities Commission explicitly forbids
 any such dealings with companies that share directors with the charity
 (I'm not sure the law requires such strict rules, but they are
 certainly recommended).

 ------------------------------

 Message: 8
 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:18:57 +0000
 From: Thomas Dalton &lt;thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com&gt;
 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Re-licensing
 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
 	&lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt;
 Message-ID:
 	&lt;a4359dff0901231518qc4a97ddj500252ba76a65bf7(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

 2009/1/23 George Herbert &lt;george.herbert(a)gmail.com&gt;om>:
  This is a discussion about copyright law and
licenses under / related to it,
 is it not?  And not philosophy writ large? 
 It was, I think we drifted a little off-topic.

 ------------------------------

 Message: 9
 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:35:20 -0700
 From: Brian &lt;Brian.Mingus(a)colorado.edu&gt;
 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
 	&lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt;
 Message-ID:
 	&lt;9839a05c0901231535o5b09fda3j977c5f60e12fab68(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 This time next year I have no doubt Wikipedia will be much more usable.
 Delphine, this sentence is the first time I have ever typed the word
 'cabal'.

 I do hope people continue to express concern about the Wikipedia/Wikia
 relationship. The existence of Wikia doesn't make a whole lot of sense,
 except the $$$ kind.

 On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Delphine M?nard &lt;notafishz(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote:

  On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 20:53, Brian
&lt;Brian.Mingus(a)colorado.edu&gt; wrote:
  I'm glad someone is concerned about this
issue. Wikia has always smacked  of
  "they wouldn't let us show ads on
Wikipedia, so here is the for-profit
 branch of Wikipedia with ads." There are potential conflicts of interest  at
  nearly every level of the Wikia/Wikipedia
relationship. 
 I never thought I would say what comes next.
 As much as I have been a fierce defender of a clear cut between Wikia
 and Wikimedia, I must admit that I find this solution to be one of the
 best things that has happened to the usability project.

 About space: been there, and yes, Wikia's headquarters are a street
 away, so really easy to plan meetings and make sure things happen in
 coordinated fashion between the Wikimedia office and the Usability
 project.

 About working near Wikia: Wikia, as was said elsewhere, is one of the
 biggest Mediawiki users out there and therefore has, in my opinion,
 probably the best incentive to make sure that Mediawiki develops in a
 way that makes sense for the users. They already have a pretty big
 developper team, and having them at hand will definitely broaden the
 usability project vision on what a wiki can/should do to be more user
 friendly.

 Who more than a commercial user of Mediawiki has an interest in its
 evolution _for the best_ of users?

 I see absolutely no conflict of interest. Where? Seriously? Wikia is
 renting walls, tables and chairs to the Wikimedia Foundation, that's
 all. And on top of that, they bring to the coffee machine talks tons
 of ideas and experience in the daily use of the software.

 And frankly, without this thread, everyone would have forgotten the
 move two days from now and seen nothing in it. Gee, it's time to grow
 up and stop seeing the cabal everywhere.

 Cheers,

 Delphine
 --
 ~notafish

 NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get
 lost.
 Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org

 _______________________________________________
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 ------------------------------

 Message: 10
 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:08:36 +0100
 From: Delphine M?nard &lt;notafishz(a)gmail.com&gt;
 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
 	&lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt;
 Message-ID:
 	&lt;453b6e50901231608x58666cd0m8fb1bdab8462b77a(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 00:35, Brian &lt;Brian.Mingus(a)colorado.edu&gt; wrote:
  This time next year I have no doubt Wikipedia
will be much more usable.
 Delphine, this sentence is the first time I have ever typed the word
 'cabal'. 
 :D

 To be fair, I didn't so mean the word cabal for your intervention as
 for other interventions in this thread, but yours was the shortest to
 answer to :P

  I do hope people continue to express concern
about the Wikipedia/Wikia
 relationship. The existence of Wikia doesn't make a whole lot of sense,
 except the $$$ kind. 
 Yes, as I pointed out, I am the first to have been concerned and I
 will be again when there is reason to be. I firmly believe this
 renting of offices isn't a reason.

 Cheers,

 Delphine
 --
 ~notafish

 NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost.
 Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org

 ------------------------------

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