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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Michael Bimmler)
2. Re: Re-licensing (George Herbert)
3. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Thomas Dalton)
4. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Erik Moeller)
5. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Ziko van Dijk)
6. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Delphine M?nard)
7. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Thomas Dalton)
8. Re: Re-licensing (Thomas Dalton)
9. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Brian)
10. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Delphine M?nard)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:11:20 +0100
From: Michael Bimmler <mbimmler(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<353e9f360901231411k3f1bac0av7484a37e1fd98df(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus(a)colorado.edu> wrote:
Quit calling us
trolls, crackpots and kooks and simply address the matters in a factual way.
Here's a suggestion for everyone: Stop the allusions to conspiracies
("tax-deductible money shifted to for-profit companies") *and* stop
the name-calling.
M.
--
Michael Bimmler
mbimmler(a)gmail.com
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:13:05 -0800
From: George Herbert <george.herbert(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Re-licensing
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<38a7bf7c0901231413v14639b08g77fa1a696c9781ae(a)mail.gmail.com>
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On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:22 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
I'm
sorry, Thomas, but until people learn to use jurisprudential
concepts such as "moral rights" properly, I have a moral obligation to
point out where they are used mistakenly. This is not a question of
"the world outside the legal profession" (and, indeed, if you were a
member of the legal profession -- or a philosopher -- you wouldn't
make the mistake of supposing this). Philosophy of law is accessible
to people who aren't lawyers -- even you. But it's clear that the word
"moral rights" is being thrown around here by people who are only
casually familiar with the concept. When you have actually given some
study to jurisprudential philosophers (see, e.g., H.L.A. Hart and Lon
Fuller) and can offer some more sophisticated philosophical analysis
than you offer here, I will be able to take your pronunciamentos more
seriously.
Where do you think laws come from? Do you think they appear from
nowhere? They are created by politicians (and sometimes judges) based
on moral values. Those moral values imply certain moral rights whether
they are written down in statute (or case law) or not.
Used relative to copyright law, the term unambiguously means what Mike is
saying, the rights that Europe (and others) have assigned to actual authors
distinct from copyright owners etc.
The specific term as used in copyright law (as Mike says, a "term of the
art" in that field) has no legal utility in the United States, as those
rights in question are not acknowledged by US copyright law or precedent.
This is a discussion about copyright law and licenses under / related to it,
is it not? And not philosophy writ large?
There was a slight danger in the Foundation chosing to hire Mike as counsel,
that he has a long-established tendency to poke fun at people ( cf. Godwin's
Law, and more long painful Usenet discussions from 20 plus years ago than I
care to remember at the moment...). This is going over rather badly with
some people's sense of moral indignation over licensing and copyright
issues.
HI, I AM NEW IN ALL THIS THING, PLEASE I NEED ALL OF YOU HELP ME.I AM CUBAN, AND MY
ENGLISH, IS NOT VERY GOOD,SO PLEASE SEND ME THE MESSAGES IN SPANISH, SO I CAN
UNDERSTAND
YOU.
--
-george william herbert
george.herbert(a)gmail.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:13:23 +0000
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<a4359dff0901231413q4d5d26e2y524066da6453ce2c(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
2009/1/23 Erik Moeller <erik(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:
2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton
<thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>:
. Did you consider the PR cost when weighing it
all up?
Of course. It's a normal transaction and any noise about it is likely
going to be ephemeral. We will continue to calmly and sensibly explain
it to reasonable people, and that's all there is to it.
Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly explain it to me, then? How
did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in
Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept
that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.)
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:20:10 -0800
From: Erik Moeller <erik(a)wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<b80736c80901231420j23f86c88kaf585cae6c9c7b7(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>:
Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly
explain it to me, then? How
did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in
Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept
that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.)
I already named some of them - greater proximity, shared kitchen use,
shared speakerphone use, established Internet connectivity. The other
space we were looking at also had noise issues: open concept with two
other tenants, and some noise every day at 6PM due to music lessons in
the same building.
--
Erik M?ller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:46:23 +0100
From: Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk(a)googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<dcb629f40901231446w31e5e214i9d10410a121a8fbe(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
2009/1/23 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
The natural state of these discussions is that there are always people
pissing in the wind. That spoils things somewhat.
Hear hear, true words in a typical Dutch wording. :-)
I am amazed about the transparency and openess the staff members are giving
here, and I am looking forward to the results of these splendid work
conditions.
Kind regards
Ziko
"Wer durch des Argwohns Brille schaut,
sieht Raupen selbst im Sauerkraut."
Wilhelm Busch
--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 00:13:44 +0100
From: Delphine M?nard <notafishz(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<453b6e50901231513r161f7f35i895af92d2efd5755(a)mail.gmail.com>
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On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 20:53, Brian <Brian.Mingus(a)colorado.edu> wrote:
I'm glad someone is concerned about this
issue. Wikia has always smacked of
"they wouldn't let us show ads on Wikipedia, so here is the for-profit
branch of Wikipedia with ads." There are potential conflicts of interest at
nearly every level of the Wikia/Wikipedia relationship.
I never thought I would say what comes next.
As much as I have been a fierce defender of a clear cut between Wikia
and Wikimedia, I must admit that I find this solution to be one of the
best things that has happened to the usability project.
About space: been there, and yes, Wikia's headquarters are a street
away, so really easy to plan meetings and make sure things happen in
coordinated fashion between the Wikimedia office and the Usability
project.
About working near Wikia: Wikia, as was said elsewhere, is one of the
biggest Mediawiki users out there and therefore has, in my opinion,
probably the best incentive to make sure that Mediawiki develops in a
way that makes sense for the users. They already have a pretty big
developper team, and having them at hand will definitely broaden the
usability project vision on what a wiki can/should do to be more user
friendly.
Who more than a commercial user of Mediawiki has an interest in its
evolution _for the best_ of users?
I see absolutely no conflict of interest. Where? Seriously? Wikia is
renting walls, tables and chairs to the Wikimedia Foundation, that's
all. And on top of that, they bring to the coffee machine talks tons
of ideas and experience in the daily use of the software.
And frankly, without this thread, everyone would have forgotten the
move two days from now and seen nothing in it. Gee, it's time to grow
up and stop seeing the cabal everywhere.
Cheers,
Delphine
--
~notafish
NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost.
Ceci n'est pas une endive -
http://blog.notanendive.org
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:16:45 +0000
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<a4359dff0901231516h761da0efu645e146f1f5145bb(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
2009/1/23 Erik Moeller <erik(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:
2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton
<thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>:
Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly
explain it to me, then? How
did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in
Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept
that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.)
I already named some of them - greater proximity, shared kitchen use,
shared speakerphone use, established Internet connectivity. The other
space we were looking at also had noise issues: open concept with two
other tenants, and some noise every day at 6PM due to music lessons in
the same building.
I was looking for something a little more quantitative. I know it is
difficult to quantify these things, which is why, in my experience,
charities usually err on the side of caution. In fact, the model
governing documents for the UK Charities Commission explicitly forbids
any such dealings with companies that share directors with the charity
(I'm not sure the law requires such strict rules, but they are
certainly recommended).
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:18:57 +0000
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Re-licensing
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<a4359dff0901231518qc4a97ddj500252ba76a65bf7(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
2009/1/23 George Herbert <george.herbert(a)gmail.com>om>:
This is a discussion about copyright law and
licenses under / related to it,
is it not? And not philosophy writ large?
It was, I think we drifted a little off-topic.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:35:20 -0700
From: Brian <Brian.Mingus(a)colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<9839a05c0901231535o5b09fda3j977c5f60e12fab68(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
This time next year I have no doubt Wikipedia will be much more usable.
Delphine, this sentence is the first time I have ever typed the word
'cabal'.
I do hope people continue to express concern about the Wikipedia/Wikia
relationship. The existence of Wikia doesn't make a whole lot of sense,
except the $$$ kind.
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Delphine M?nard <notafishz(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 20:53, Brian
<Brian.Mingus(a)colorado.edu> wrote:
I'm glad someone is concerned about this
issue. Wikia has always smacked
of
"they wouldn't let us show ads on
Wikipedia, so here is the for-profit
branch of Wikipedia with ads." There are potential conflicts of interest
at
nearly every level of the Wikia/Wikipedia
relationship.
I never thought I would say what comes next.
As much as I have been a fierce defender of a clear cut between Wikia
and Wikimedia, I must admit that I find this solution to be one of the
best things that has happened to the usability project.
About space: been there, and yes, Wikia's headquarters are a street
away, so really easy to plan meetings and make sure things happen in
coordinated fashion between the Wikimedia office and the Usability
project.
About working near Wikia: Wikia, as was said elsewhere, is one of the
biggest Mediawiki users out there and therefore has, in my opinion,
probably the best incentive to make sure that Mediawiki develops in a
way that makes sense for the users. They already have a pretty big
developper team, and having them at hand will definitely broaden the
usability project vision on what a wiki can/should do to be more user
friendly.
Who more than a commercial user of Mediawiki has an interest in its
evolution _for the best_ of users?
I see absolutely no conflict of interest. Where? Seriously? Wikia is
renting walls, tables and chairs to the Wikimedia Foundation, that's
all. And on top of that, they bring to the coffee machine talks tons
of ideas and experience in the daily use of the software.
And frankly, without this thread, everyone would have forgotten the
move two days from now and seen nothing in it. Gee, it's time to grow
up and stop seeing the cabal everywhere.
Cheers,
Delphine
--
~notafish
NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get
lost.
Ceci n'est pas une endive -
http://blog.notanendive.org
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:08:36 +0100
From: Delphine M?nard <notafishz(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<453b6e50901231608x58666cd0m8fb1bdab8462b77a(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 00:35, Brian <Brian.Mingus(a)colorado.edu> wrote:
This time next year I have no doubt Wikipedia
will be much more usable.
Delphine, this sentence is the first time I have ever typed the word
'cabal'.
:D
To be fair, I didn't so mean the word cabal for your intervention as
for other interventions in this thread, but yours was the shortest to
answer to :P
I do hope people continue to express concern
about the Wikipedia/Wikia
relationship. The existence of Wikia doesn't make a whole lot of sense,
except the $$$ kind.
Yes, as I pointed out, I am the first to have been concerned and I
will be again when there is reason to be. I firmly believe this
renting of offices isn't a reason.
Cheers,
Delphine
--
~notafish
NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost.
Ceci n'est pas une endive -
http://blog.notanendive.org
------------------------------
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