Inspired by the creation of Wikimedia Norway (which I attended), we are now starting to discuss the formation of a Swedish chapter. I hope and think it can be completed before this year's end. The recent discussion (in Swedish) can be found on http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikimedia_Sverige
A similar discussion from a year ago took place on meta, but didn't lead to anything real. The page mentioned above links to all such discussions.
Even before the chapter is formed, I think it would be nice to print t-shirts with the logotype for the Swedish Wikipedia. However, today this logotype doesn't exist in high resolution. And the small resolution logotype used on sv.wikipedia.org appears to use a font which is slightly different from the one used for the other European languages. What is the name of the proper font? Is that font available in Gimp? Or can someone help us with this?
WMF already has a t-shirt shop at cafepress.com (in California) and the German chapter has a shop at spreadshirt.de. Both shops charge extra for delivery to Sweden, so the Swedish chapter would probably prefer to set up a similar shop based in Sweden. Is there any established practice in how to do this? Does every use of the logotypes need to be cleared with the WMF? Should items be sold at the price of printing or with a 10% markup, for the benefit of the national chapter?
I remember at the first Wikimania (in 2005) there was a large flag with the Wikipedia puzzle globe without (?) any text. Does anybody already have a stock of such flags? I know they can be printed in single quantity, but become much cheaper once you can print five or ten at a time. I'd like to buy one or two, and my guess is that Wikimedia Norway might also be interested.
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Lars Aronsson wrote:
Even before the chapter is formed, I think it would be nice to print t-shirts with the logotype for the Swedish Wikipedia. However, today this logotype doesn't exist in high resolution. And the small resolution logotype used on sv.wikipedia.org appears to use a font which is slightly different from the one used for the other European languages. What is the name of the proper font? Is that font available in Gimp? Or can someone help us with this?
The standard font used for the Wikipedia logo is 'Hoefler Text'. IIRC it comes with most Macs; not sure offhand where to get it on other systems.
- -- brion vibber (brion @ wikimedia.org)
Brion Vibber wrote:
The standard font used for the Wikipedia logo is 'Hoefler Text'. IIRC it comes with most Macs; not sure offhand where to get it on other systems.
Thanks! A high resolution version is now available on http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikipedia-logo-sv-large.png
Does that look OK?
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Lars Aronsson wrote:
Brion Vibber wrote:
The standard font used for the Wikipedia logo is 'Hoefler Text'. IIRC it comes with most Macs; not sure offhand where to get it on other systems.
Thanks! A high resolution version is now available on http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikipedia-logo-sv-large.png
Does that look OK?
Mycket vackert!
- -- brion vibber (brion @ wikimedia.org)
On Thu, July 19, 2007 20:03, Brion Vibber wrote:
The standard font used for the Wikipedia logo is 'Hoefler Text'. IIRC it comes with most Macs; not sure offhand where to get it on other systems.
I just tracked down where to purchase it (https://www.typography.com/storefront/) but found a distinct 'issue' which is somewhat insurmountable. The price.
Hoefler Text & Hoefler Titling 1 CPU License US$ 398.00
and that is listed as a "Special Offer: Save $100 on Hoefler Text and Titling" ffs!
If we end up 'correcting' the glyphs in the globe could we please use a free-as-in-beer font for the colophon and text too? There are open source fonts and to use this particular font is restrictive and way too expensive to be reasonable for projects such as ours.
Alison
On 7/20/07, Alison Wheeler wikimedia@alisonwheeler.com wrote:
If we end up 'correcting' the glyphs in the globe could we please use a free-as-in-beer font for the colophon and text too? There are open source fonts and to use this particular font is restrictive and way too expensive to be reasonable for projects such as ours.
Very good point, if for no other reason than to showcase the existence of open fonts. I'll email Sandy & David about this.
Il giorno 20/lug/07, alle ore 03:49, Erik Moeller ha scritto:
On 7/20/07, Alison Wheeler wikimedia@alisonwheeler.com wrote:
If we end up 'correcting' the glyphs in the globe could we please use a free-as-in-beer font for the colophon and text too? There are open source fonts and to use this particular font is restrictive and way too expensive to be reasonable for projects such as ours.
Very good point, if for no other reason than to showcase the existence of open fonts. I'll email Sandy & David about this. --
Good luck. The italian community worked with free fonts, and it has not been an easy issue. As regards the logo: after years and years, are we going to change it radically? Mmmmmmh, I doubt it.
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Alison Wheeler wrote:
If we end up 'correcting' the glyphs in the globe could we please use a free-as-in-beer font for the colophon and text too? There are open source fonts and to use this particular font is restrictive and way too expensive to be reasonable for projects such as ours.
My understanding of font/typeface copyright issues, and this may be totally wrong, is that the font _file_ is copyrighted so you can't send the font _file_ to someone else, but that the shapes of the letters are not, so there's no limitation on what you've written out using it.
Of course it's still mildly annoying. :)
- -- brion vibber (brion @ wikimedia.org)
On 7/20/07, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org wrote:
My understanding of font/typeface copyright issues, and this may be totally wrong,
I think you are right. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-text-logo
Bryan
Would that mean that anyone who could make a font identical to the "official" font could save it under the CC licence and make it readily available for all Wikipedias who wanted to use it?
/Hannibal
2007/7/20, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org:
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Alison Wheeler wrote:
If we end up 'correcting' the glyphs in the globe could we please use a free-as-in-beer font for the colophon and text too? There are open
source
fonts and to use this particular font is restrictive and way too
expensive
to be reasonable for projects such as ours.
My understanding of font/typeface copyright issues, and this may be totally wrong, is that the font _file_ is copyrighted so you can't send the font _file_ to someone else, but that the shapes of the letters are not, so there's no limitation on what you've written out using it.
Of course it's still mildly annoying. :)
- -- brion vibber (brion @ wikimedia.org)
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foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hi, I'm not sure about the conditions of use set forth to Macintosh users, but the version available for purchase doesn't allow that either.
"You agree not to make, or authorize or commission others to make, any additions, deletions or modifications to, or derivative works based on, the Typefaces without the prior written consent of H&FJ."
--Kjoonlee
On 7/20/07, Lennart Guldbrandsson wikihannibal@gmail.com wrote:
Would that mean that anyone who could make a font identical to the "official" font could save it under the CC licence and make it readily available for all Wikipedias who wanted to use it?
/Hannibal
2007/7/20, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org:
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Alison Wheeler wrote:
If we end up 'correcting' the glyphs in the globe could we please use a free-as-in-beer font for the colophon and text too? There are open
source
fonts and to use this particular font is restrictive and way too
expensive
to be reasonable for projects such as ours.
My understanding of font/typeface copyright issues, and this may be totally wrong, is that the font _file_ is copyrighted so you can't send the font _file_ to someone else, but that the shapes of the letters are not, so there's no limitation on what you've written out using it.
Of course it's still mildly annoying. :)
- -- brion vibber (brion @ wikimedia.org)
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-- Lennart Guldbrandsson, presskontakt för svenskspråkiga Wikipedia _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hoi, Given that the Wikimedia Foundation has so many people advocating a Free Culture, I would say that retaining a font that has such onerous restrictions for our own logo is really a bit much. There are good quality fonts available and, when these do not exist, I would even favour us to partner with organisations that provide Free licenses like SIL and make fonts available so that our content can be experienced in the way it is intended, free and unencumbered.
I expect that all those who are against the use of Flash, will be in favour of us not using fonts that make our content opaque in the same way that Flash does.
Thanks, GerardM
On 7/26/07, Kyungjun Lee kjoonlee@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, I'm not sure about the conditions of use set forth to Macintosh users, but the version available for purchase doesn't allow that either.
"You agree not to make, or authorize or commission others to make, any additions, deletions or modifications to, or derivative works based on, the Typefaces without the prior written consent of H&FJ."
--Kjoonlee
On 7/20/07, Lennart Guldbrandsson wikihannibal@gmail.com wrote:
Would that mean that anyone who could make a font identical to the "official" font could save it under the CC licence and make it readily available for all Wikipedias who wanted to use it?
/Hannibal
2007/7/20, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org:
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Alison Wheeler wrote:
If we end up 'correcting' the glyphs in the globe could we please
use a
free-as-in-beer font for the colophon and text too? There are open
source
fonts and to use this particular font is restrictive and way too
expensive
to be reasonable for projects such as ours.
My understanding of font/typeface copyright issues, and this may be totally wrong, is that the font _file_ is copyrighted so you can't
send
the font _file_ to someone else, but that the shapes of the letters
are
not, so there's no limitation on what you've written out using it.
Of course it's still mildly annoying. :)
- -- brion vibber (brion @ wikimedia.org)
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-- Lennart Guldbrandsson, presskontakt för svenskspråkiga Wikipedia _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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On 7/26/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Given that the Wikimedia Foundation has so many people advocating a Free Culture, I would say that retaining a font that has such onerous restrictions for our own logo is really a bit much. There are good quality fonts available and, when these do not exist, I would even favour us to partner with organisations that provide Free licenses like SIL and make fonts available so that our content can be experienced in the way it is intended, free and unencumbered.
I expect that all those who are against the use of Flash, will be in favour of us not using fonts that make our content opaque in the same way that Flash does.
I think I was a bit rash, though, since the Gill Sans font, which is used in the Wikimedia Foundation logo, also has restrictive terms of use by default:
http://www.fonts.com/Legal/MI-EULA.htm
However, Gill Sans MT is easily obtainable with various Microsoft software, kind of like how Hoefler Text is available on Mac OS.
---
I still think switching to Junicode would be a good idea, though, since Junicode is available under the GPL, the developer is active and responsive, it's stylistically (to my untrained eyes, at least) very similar to Hoefler Text and it has nice support for various European characters, even Greek.
--Kjoonlee
Hoi, Why ? Now the only thing that is relevant is that we support all characters. That is it. When necessary, I would welcome us to become the 500 pound gorilla moving font and character support for all languages.. This is a worthwhile and doable proposition.
When Microsoft clients can easily get particular fonts, that is fine. We do not have only Microsoft clients so that is not much of an argument, Thanks. GerardM
On 7/27/07, Kyungjun Lee kjoonlee@gmail.com wrote:
On 7/26/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Given that the Wikimedia Foundation has so many people advocating a Free Culture, I would say that retaining a font that has such onerous restrictions for our own logo is really a bit much. There are good
quality
fonts available and, when these do not exist, I would even favour us to partner with organisations that provide Free licenses like SIL and make fonts available so that our content can be experienced in the way it is intended, free and unencumbered.
I expect that all those who are against the use of Flash, will be in
favour
of us not using fonts that make our content opaque in the same way that Flash does.
I think I was a bit rash, though, since the Gill Sans font, which is used in the Wikimedia Foundation logo, also has restrictive terms of use by default:
http://www.fonts.com/Legal/MI-EULA.htm
However, Gill Sans MT is easily obtainable with various Microsoft software, kind of like how Hoefler Text is available on Mac OS.
I still think switching to Junicode would be a good idea, though, since Junicode is available under the GPL, the developer is active and responsive, it's stylistically (to my untrained eyes, at least) very similar to Hoefler Text and it has nice support for various European characters, even Greek.
--Kjoonlee
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 7/27/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Why ? Now the only thing that is relevant is that we support all characters. That is it. When necessary, I would welcome us to become the 500 pound gorilla moving font and character support for all languages.. This is a worthwhile and doable proposition.
When Microsoft clients can easily get particular fonts, that is fine. We do not have only Microsoft clients so that is not much of an argument, Thanks. GerardM
The reason I said I was rash is because I said (or implied) that Hoefler Text was restrictive, without checking if Mac users had to agree to those conditions when they bought their OS. Neither did I check if Windows users had to agree to restrictive conditions regarding fonts, during installation from CD.
Cheers, --Kjoonlee
Kyungjun Lee wrote:
The reason I said I was rash is because I said (or implied) that Hoefler Text was restrictive, without checking if Mac users had to agree to those conditions when they bought their OS. Neither did I check if Windows users had to agree to restrictive conditions regarding fonts, during installation from CD.
Cheers, --Kjoonlee
From Windows Vista Home License, http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx
3.b Font Components. While the software is running, you may use its fonts to display and print content. You may only · embed fonts in content as permitted by the embedding restrictions in the fonts; and · temporarily download them to a printer or other output device to print content.
Hoi, So these fonts prevent you from using what the FSF defines as your rights. There are more good reasons why we should be involved in providing Free fonts. For many languages there are no fonts that include all the characters needed. When we aim to support all languages, the first thing that would be opportune is to make sure that we are technically able to support these languages.
At this moment we are not able to support more than 100 languages because there is no support for them in Unicode. We are talking about many millions of people.
Thanks, GerardM
On 7/29/07, Platonides Platonides@gmail.com wrote:
Kyungjun Lee wrote:
The reason I said I was rash is because I said (or implied) that Hoefler Text was restrictive, without checking if Mac users had to agree to those conditions when they bought their OS. Neither did I check if Windows users had to agree to restrictive conditions regarding fonts, during installation from CD.
Cheers, --Kjoonlee
From Windows Vista Home License, http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx
3.b Font Components. While the software is running, you may use its fonts to display and print content. You may only · embed fonts in content as permitted by the embedding restrictions in the fonts; and · temporarily download them to a printer or other output device to print content.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 7/29/07, Platonides Platonides@gmail.com wrote:
Kyungjun Lee wrote:
The reason I said I was rash is because I said (or implied) that Hoefler Text was restrictive, without checking if Mac users had to agree to those conditions when they bought their OS. Neither did I check if Windows users had to agree to restrictive conditions regarding fonts, during installation from CD.
Cheers, --Kjoonlee
From Windows Vista Home License, http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx
3.b Font Components. While the software is running, you may use its fonts to display and print content. You may only · embed fonts in content as permitted by the embedding restrictions in the fonts; and · temporarily download them to a printer or other output device to print content.
Hi, would displaying content include making bitmaps / SVG files from the fonts?
If not, Image:Calibri example.svg and its like would be an EULA violation.
--Kjoonlee
Hoi, When you have a EULA to deal with, you are typically talking about proprietary software. So you should not assume that you have the Freedom to do whatever. Then again, you will not hear me say that this is a license violation.. I leave it to people who care to study this and come with a more reasoned opinion. Thanks, GerardM
On 7/30/07, Kyungjun Lee kjoonlee@gmail.com wrote:
On 7/29/07, Platonides Platonides@gmail.com wrote:
Kyungjun Lee wrote:
The reason I said I was rash is because I said (or implied) that Hoefler Text was restrictive, without checking if Mac users had to agree to those conditions when they bought their OS. Neither did I check if Windows users had to agree to restrictive conditions regarding fonts, during installation from CD.
Cheers, --Kjoonlee
From Windows Vista Home License, http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx
3.b Font Components. While the software is running, you may use its fonts to display and print content. You may only · embed fonts in content as permitted by the embedding
restrictions in
the fonts; and · temporarily download them to a printer or other output device
to
print content.
Hi, would displaying content include making bitmaps / SVG files from the fonts?
If not, Image:Calibri example.svg and its like would be an EULA violation.
--Kjoonlee _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 7/20/07, Alison Wheeler wikimedia@alisonwheeler.com wrote:
On Thu, July 19, 2007 20:03, Brion Vibber wrote:
The standard font used for the Wikipedia logo is 'Hoefler Text'. IIRC it comes with most Macs; not sure offhand where to get it on other systems.
I just tracked down where to purchase it (https://www.typography.com/storefront/) but found a distinct 'issue' which is somewhat insurmountable. The price.
Hoefler Text & Hoefler Titling 1 CPU License US$ 398.00
and that is listed as a "Special Offer: Save $100 on Hoefler Text and Titling" ffs!
If we end up 'correcting' the glyphs in the globe could we please use a free-as-in-beer font for the colophon and text too? There are open source fonts and to use this particular font is restrictive and way too expensive to be reasonable for projects such as ours.
Alison
http://www.typography.com/support/eula.html
Hoefler Text, as sold at its site, also forbids the distribution of SVG logos.
"You may not create Embedded Documents, except as expressly provided in paragraphs 3.2 and 3.3:" "3.2. Workflow PDFs" "3.3 Flash Files."
I personally propose the adoption of Junicode font family for all Latin-based logos.
http://junicode.sourceforge.net/
--Kjoonlee
I made the logo a year ago or so, but didn't have the appropriate font at the time; I can redo it again now with the correct font, in any resolution you'd like (well, up to about 1000 pixels or so, which is the biggest resolution logo we have, AFAIK).
On 7/19/07, Lars Aronsson lars@aronsson.se wrote:
Inspired by the creation of Wikimedia Norway (which I attended), we are now starting to discuss the formation of a Swedish chapter. I hope and think it can be completed before this year's end. The recent discussion (in Swedish) can be found on http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikimedia_Sverige
A similar discussion from a year ago took place on meta, but didn't lead to anything real. The page mentioned above links to all such discussions.
Even before the chapter is formed, I think it would be nice to print t-shirts with the logotype for the Swedish Wikipedia. However, today this logotype doesn't exist in high resolution. And the small resolution logotype used on sv.wikipedia.org appears to use a font which is slightly different from the one used for the other European languages. What is the name of the proper font? Is that font available in Gimp? Or can someone help us with this?
WMF already has a t-shirt shop at cafepress.com (in California) and the German chapter has a shop at spreadshirt.de. Both shops charge extra for delivery to Sweden, so the Swedish chapter would probably prefer to set up a similar shop based in Sweden. Is there any established practice in how to do this? Does every use of the logotypes need to be cleared with the WMF? Should items be sold at the price of printing or with a 10% markup, for the benefit of the national chapter?
I remember at the first Wikimania (in 2005) there was a large flag with the Wikipedia puzzle globe without (?) any text. Does anybody already have a stock of such flags? I know they can be printed in single quantity, but become much cheaper once you can print five or ten at a time. I'd like to buy one or two, and my guess is that Wikimedia Norway might also be interested.
-- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
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To print t-shirt with Wikipedia logo you must have an agreement with the WMF. Because Swedish Wikimedia doesn't exist the agreement cannot exist.
I will ask to the WMF before print them.
Ilario
Lars Aronsson wrote:
Even before the chapter is formed, I think it would be nice to print t-shirts with the logotype for the Swedish Wikipedia. However, today this logotype doesn't exist in high resolution. And the small resolution logotype used on sv.wikipedia.org appears to use a font which is slightly different from the one used for the other European languages. What is the name of the proper font? Is that font available in Gimp? Or can someone help us with this?
WMF already has a t-shirt shop at cafepress.com (in California) and the German chapter has a shop at spreadshirt.de. Both shops charge extra for delivery to Sweden, so the Swedish chapter would probably prefer to set up a similar shop based in Sweden. Is there any established practice in how to do this? Does every use of the logotypes need to be cleared with the WMF? Should items be sold at the price of printing or with a 10% markup, for the benefit of the national chapter?
On 7/19/07, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
To print t-shirt with Wikipedia logo you must have an agreement with the WMF. Because Swedish Wikimedia doesn't exist the agreement cannot exist.
Depends if you're looking at making a business with Wikipedia st-shirts, or looking at printing 10 of them to distribute to the people interested in the chapter (ie. personal use).
The first does mean a legal agreement with the WMF. The second can be cleared in an email.
Delphine
Lars Aronsson wrote:
Inspired by the creation of Wikimedia Norway (which I attended), we are now starting to discuss the formation of a Swedish chapter. I hope and think it can be completed before this year's end. The recent discussion (in Swedish) can be found on http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikimedia_Sverige
A similar discussion from a year ago took place on meta, but didn't lead to anything real. The page mentioned above links to all such discussions.
Even before the chapter is formed, I think it would be nice to print t-shirts with the logotype for the Swedish Wikipedia. However, today this logotype doesn't exist in high resolution. And the small resolution logotype used on sv.wikipedia.org appears to use a font which is slightly different from the one used for the other European languages. What is the name of the proper font? Is that font available in Gimp? Or can someone help us with this?
I presume tee-shirts will be printed either for free distribution or for sale in conferences. Perhaps to collect start up money for the future Wikimedia Swedish ?
If so, who will handle the money ? An individual person or another organization ? What warranty do we have the benefits of the sale will go to the chapter ?
Once you know who will be the contact, you should contact the Foundation to settle tms issues. Best is to talk to Delphine (chapter coordinator). Yes, every use must be cleared. Usually items are sold with a benefit, but it may differ depending on the item and of the shop. It is typically a little (but welcome) source of money for chapters. Though I think it is primarily for fun and community building.
WMF already has a t-shirt shop at cafepress.com (in California) and the German chapter has a shop at spreadshirt.de. Both shops charge extra for delivery to Sweden, so the Swedish chapter would probably prefer to set up a similar shop based in Sweden. Is there any established practice in how to do this? Does every use of the logotypes need to be cleared with the WMF? Should items be sold at the price of printing or with a 10% markup, for the benefit of the national chapter?
I remember at the first Wikimania (in 2005) there was a large flag with the Wikipedia puzzle globe without (?) any text. Does anybody already have a stock of such flags? I know they can be printed in single quantity, but become much cheaper once you can print five or ten at a time. I'd like to buy one or two, and my guess is that Wikimedia Norway might also be interested.
No idea. The only items I currently have are some little stickers with WP logo on them, which Danny gave me in Rotterdam in january. Very simple to distribute when one travel around. This is naturally for free. People love sticking that on their computer or elsewhere.
Ant
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org