According to WMUA Board decision [1] from now on (today morning) and for unlimited time period the one and only WMUA chapter mailing list [ WikimediaUA] [2] (which is very much like [Wikimedia-I]) is switched to read-only mode for all community members but Board (7 persons) and Audit Committee (+3 persons), who saved full access for them.
It's like conversion of [Wikimedia-l] into [WikimediaAnnounce-l], but with much more severe (only for WMF Board announcements) limitations.
Interestingly (if somebody prefer) that moderators of [WikimediaUA] mailing list from the times long before the said ruling are: * 2 Board members (Board Chair and Executive director) and * 1 member of Audit Committee. All moderators were appointed (no elections!) by ...Board decision.
As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this person will have to go deep into struggle:
* for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board; * against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some of WMUA Board members * ...etc.
and [3] and [4] are some entry points for that ...'deepness'.
Sincerely,
Pavlo Shevelo (my WPnick is the same :))
[1] http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%96%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%...
[2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaua [3] See the Talk page for [1] [4] http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%9...
Sorry, all references are in Ukrainian (with Ukrainian titles, that's why URLs are so long) but Google translate works reasonably well to give the idea, at least for [1], which is most important
Dear Pavlo,
as that list is dedicated to chapter business, the chapter may decide how to use that list.
For open discussions of the ukranian language Wikimedia projects there is WikiUK-l: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiuk-l
If there is a real need for a seperate list to discuss chapter business which is open, not the project list and not controlled by the board I am sure that the folks at WMF are happy to help with that. Maybe the new list could then become WikimediaUA-l and the current WikimediaUA-l will become WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar. But this should be discussed by the concerned community.
/Manuel
Dear Manuel,
Thanks for your swift comment & advice, I appreciate (while I'm one of the administrators at WikiUK-l, by the way :) ).
Forgive me for missing the detail which was obvious for me - I'm WMUA member (from the moment of it legal registration back in 2009) so I'm from inside WMUA as a project as well as 40+ more WMUA members (beside Board and AC). In your wording - I'm well inside of "chapter business", the issue is with the missing (or invalid?) process "the chapter may decide how to use that list".
That was clear for me (and explained by me in local discussions - in said mailing list and on community Portal) that if Board needs something only for announcements ("WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar"), they should contact "folks at WMF" and arrange new, additional list (like WMF Board did some years after creation of 'universal' list).
In addition to that nobody never settled in proper way, that [WikimediaUA] is "the project list" (if WMUA is not the project by itself) and, moreover, it should be "controlled by the board" to that extent as WMUA Board it defined and settled for themselves.
So I remain with my question about is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
All more advices how to create alternative mailing list with help of: * "folks at WMF" * automatic services/stuff at Google (like Google groups etc.) will be appreciated, but it's not the main focus of my interest.
Sincerely,
Pavlo
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:03 PM, Manuel Schneider < manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch> wrote:
Dear Pavlo,
as that list is dedicated to chapter business, the chapter may decide how to use that list.
For open discussions of the ukranian language Wikimedia projects there is WikiUK-l: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiuk-l
If there is a real need for a seperate list to discuss chapter business which is open, not the project list and not controlled by the board I am sure that the folks at WMF are happy to help with that. Maybe the new list could then become WikimediaUA-l and the current WikimediaUA-l will become WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar. But this should be discussed by the concerned community.
/Manuel
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Am 18.08.2013 17:47, schrieb Pavlo Shevelo:
is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings?
all precedence known to me have been much less restrictive actions, such as the WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. Nobody questioned that change.
Does it seems appropriate?
My personal opinion is that the board may decide so, under consideration of what Nemo questioned: That the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct their work. This may be disputed as it was the formerly open and public list which has been closed but it could also be considered that WikiUK-l could act as such place as well. So from my point of view it is really up to the community at WikimediaUA-l and WikiUK-l whether WikiUK-l is an appropriate replacement or if another list is needed due to this change.
/Manuel
WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we
had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list.
Nobody questioned that change.
The said WMUA mailing list from the moment of creation was closed for anybody else but WMUA members. I was one of the members, who questioned that but after explanation "private information might be (unwillingly) disclosed otherwise" I decided that it's not really a matter (or an important one) and stopped questioning.
the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct
their work
Yours wording is exactly like that (above) while "what Nemo questioned" is:
"do the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members of the chapters?"
The main issue is what is "work" for you (and "duties" for Nemo)? The point of WMUA Board is that members MUST do their "work" ("carry out their duties") and execution of Board ruling is part of that. So any critics of Board (or separate Board members) is distraction from the work :)
The Nemo mentioned "and rights" in his questioning, so I believe his perception is closer to mine (while critics or at least questioning - is one of the rights for me and I guess for Nemo as well).
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Manuel Schneider < manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch> wrote:
Am 18.08.2013 17:47, schrieb Pavlo Shevelo:
is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings?
all precedence known to me have been much less restrictive actions, such as the WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. Nobody questioned that change.
Does it seems appropriate?
My personal opinion is that the board may decide so, under consideration of what Nemo questioned: That the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct their work. This may be disputed as it was the formerly open and public list which has been closed but it could also be considered that WikiUK-l could act as such place as well. So from my point of view it is really up to the community at WikimediaUA-l and WikiUK-l whether WikiUK-l is an appropriate replacement or if another list is needed due to this change.
/Manuel
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
When one reads the links offered by Pavlo, the picture is clearer. The board is trying to suppress on-list criticism with this step, claiming "people" (no doubt including Pavlo) are "trolls and spammers". I think we all know things are often not black and white, and that accusations of trolling are sometimes used by people to brand legitimate opponents (and sometimes people really are trolls).
I can't presume to know whether Pavlo is a troll or not, or what the subtance of his criticism is, and how justified it may be. WMUA's current leadership elected to (try to) halt the debate rather than face the criticism (no doubt they have engaged in multiple previous rounds as well), and we can assume the WMUA membership will judge their action as they see fit.
But let's not pretend this is a question of a sudden need to set up a new mailing list. That's not what this is about.
A.
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.comwrote:
WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we
had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list.
Nobody questioned that change.
The said WMUA mailing list from the moment of creation was closed for anybody else but WMUA members. I was one of the members, who questioned that but after explanation "private information might be (unwillingly) disclosed otherwise" I decided that it's not really a matter (or an important one) and stopped questioning.
the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct
their work
Yours wording is exactly like that (above) while "what Nemo questioned" is:
"do the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members of the chapters?"
The main issue is what is "work" for you (and "duties" for Nemo)? The point of WMUA Board is that members MUST do their "work" ("carry out their duties") and execution of Board ruling is part of that. So any critics of Board (or separate Board members) is distraction from the work :)
The Nemo mentioned "and rights" in his questioning, so I believe his perception is closer to mine (while critics or at least questioning - is one of the rights for me and I guess for Nemo as well).
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Manuel Schneider < manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch> wrote:
Am 18.08.2013 17:47, schrieb Pavlo Shevelo:
is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike
rulings?
all precedence known to me have been much less restrictive actions, such as the WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. Nobody questioned that change.
Does it seems appropriate?
My personal opinion is that the board may decide so, under consideration of what Nemo questioned: That the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct their work. This may be disputed as it was the formerly open and public list which has been closed but it could also be considered that WikiUK-l could act as such place as well. So from my point of view it is really up to the community at WikimediaUA-l and WikiUK-l whether WikiUK-l is an appropriate replacement or if another list is needed due to this change.
/Manuel
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I'm really grateful for your note, Asaf
You comprehend my messages 100% right. Perhaps even more than that, as I'm just unable to verify whether I'm a troll (or not, hopefully).
But as to the best of my belief I'm ready to face the fact, that I'm the troll (how can I know that for sure?) so I'm ready to stay against any criticism of being a troll - all kinds of 'duck test' etc., while our board prefers just to
*halt the debate rather than face the **criticism*
and said transformation of WMUA central mailing list is just one step in a row (a very long one - a chain of that "multiple previous rounds").
Well, I was not going to complain (or something like that) - I was mainly verifying the precedents as I assured other WMUA members that we have something unprecedented at all (in all Wikipedia movement at least). ...and I'm still not complaining :) Yes it's nobody else but we, WMUA people, should (Have to, MUST) overcome all tough issues by ourselves and a lot of that our problems are rooted in post-USSR situation (I was born in 1956, that's just 3 years after Stalin' death so I know what I'm talking about) hence they might appear to be pretty (or even too) ...*specific** *for Wikimedia CH (so for Manuel), WMNL (so for Ziko) etc. - with all due respect to Manuel, Ziko and others.
And please, PLEASE don't think that WMUA is something very bad, and even not all of our Board members (we have 7 of them) have said problems with facing criticism ;)
Now we're in 'full ahead' mode to start WLM'2013 and preparing to make our Wiki loves Earth (WLE) initiative [1][2][3] really international (it was presented in Hong Kong recently and they say it was estimated rather well) and ... and ... and ... as well ;)
___
Obviously I'm not closing the topic and all and every further comments, insights, ...peer reviews will be highly appreciated!
Thanks again, Asaf!!!
Sincerely,
Pavlo Shevelo Proud member of WMUA
[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Earth_2014 [2] http://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/02/13/wikimedia-ukraine-new-photo-contest-wik... [3] http://wle.org.ua/english/
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
When one reads the links offered by Pavlo, the picture is clearer. The board is trying to suppress on-list criticism with this step, claiming "people" (no doubt including Pavlo) are "trolls and spammers". I think we all know things are often not black and white, and that accusations of trolling are sometimes used by people to brand legitimate opponents (and sometimes people really are trolls).
I can't presume to know whether Pavlo is a troll or not, or what the subtance of his criticism is, and how justified it may be. WMUA's current leadership elected to (try to) halt the debate rather than face the criticism (no doubt they have engaged in multiple previous rounds as well), and we can assume the WMUA membership will judge their action as they see fit.
But let's not pretend this is a question of a sudden need to set up a new mailing list. That's not what this is about.
A.
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com
wrote:
WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we
had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list.
Nobody questioned that change.
The said WMUA mailing list from the moment of creation was closed for anybody else but WMUA members. I was one of the members, who questioned that but after explanation "private information might be (unwillingly) disclosed otherwise" I decided that
it's
not really a matter (or an important one) and stopped questioning.
the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct
their work
Yours wording is exactly like that (above) while "what Nemo questioned"
is:
"do the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members
of
the chapters?"
The main issue is what is "work" for you (and "duties" for Nemo)? The point of WMUA Board is that members MUST do their "work" ("carry out their duties") and execution of Board ruling is part of that. So any critics of Board (or separate Board members) is distraction from the work :)
The Nemo mentioned "and rights" in his questioning, so I believe his perception is closer to mine (while critics or at least questioning - is one of the rights for me and I guess for Nemo as well).
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Manuel Schneider < manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch> wrote:
Am 18.08.2013 17:47, schrieb Pavlo Shevelo:
is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike
rulings?
all precedence known to me have been much less restrictive actions,
such
as the WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. Nobody questioned that change.
Does it seems appropriate?
My personal opinion is that the board may decide so, under
consideration
of what Nemo questioned: That the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct their work. This may be disputed as it was the formerly open and public list which has been closed but it could also be considered that WikiUK-l could act as such place as well. So from my point of view it is really up to the community at WikimediaUA-l and WikiUK-l whether WikiUK-l is an appropriate replacement or if another list is needed due to this change.
/Manuel
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Pavlo Shevelo, 18/08/2013 16:36:
As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
Sorry, but I think these questions are flawed. A better question is: do the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members of the chapters, as defined by the bylaws? (One is not always easy to set up.)
If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this person will have to go deep into struggle:
- for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
- against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
of WMUA Board members
- ...etc.
So that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the board? If it's public, then these is indeed higher "transparency" than in most chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing); on the other hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space.
Nemo
Oh Federico (or should I use Nemo as the name? :) ),
Seemingly you almost grasped (groked) what I'm talking about and that "almost" is caused by my problems in English (it's not my native language and I suffer from lack of practice :( ).
So we need some more clarification and let me start from the bottom up (as of the text of your mail):
that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the board? If it's public, then these is indeed higher "transparency" than in most
chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing);
Definitely NO, while we think (not only dream) about that level of transparency. As I'm one of the believers, that "this is necessarily a good thing", I dared even to propose that several times to Board members.
But from the very beginning of WMUA the Board has separate mailing list (without archive, what is significant in some situations like change of Board members) and in addition they build Board' wikisite which is closed as well (only AC members ver granted by access - after long struggle so as sorta gifted compromise, while it was never accepted by the community). So said mailing list they ...occupy only for "Urbi et orbi" purposes or it will be more exact to say only for "urbi" (strictly confidential for WMUA).
on the other hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space.
YES it does replace or, to be more exact, "all-members discussion space" is converted to Board announcement place (all others but AC is in "sit down and listen" mode strictly).
better question is: do the member of the chapter have a suitable and
working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members of the chapter
Since said ruling - not in the mailing list(s), while community Portal survived (yet? the administrators there are ...surprise - Board and AC members as well). As we all know discussions on the wiki (like Portals, Village pumps etc.) doesn't eliminate the need of mailing list.
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:45 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.comwrote:
Pavlo Shevelo, 18/08/2013 16:36:
As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
Sorry, but I think these questions are flawed. A better question is: do the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members of the chapters, as defined by the bylaws? (One is not always easy to set up.)
If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this person will have to go deep into struggle:
- for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
- against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
of WMUA Board members
- ...etc.
So that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the board? If it's public, then these is indeed higher "transparency" than in most chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing); on the other hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space.
Nemo
Hello, This is actually a good question for http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Research/Surve... How do chapter boards make use of the board mailing list, and how about the general mailing list of the association. Actually, the mailing list of WMNL, Wikimedianl-l, doesn't show very much activity. Everyone can join and post. But I can imagine scenarios in which a chapter decides to change that. Kind regards Ziko
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Ziko van Dijk voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht http://wikimedia.nl --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2013/8/18 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com
According to WMUA Board decision [1] from now on (today morning) and for unlimited time period the one and only WMUA chapter mailing list [ WikimediaUA] [2] (which is very much like [Wikimedia-I]) is switched to read-only mode for all community members but Board (7 persons) and Audit Committee (+3 persons), who saved full access for them.
It's like conversion of [Wikimedia-l] into [WikimediaAnnounce-l], but with much more severe (only for WMF Board announcements) limitations.
Interestingly (if somebody prefer) that moderators of [WikimediaUA] mailing list from the times long before the said ruling are:
- 2 Board members (Board Chair and Executive director)
and
- 1 member of Audit Committee.
All moderators were appointed (no elections!) by ...Board decision.
As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this person will have to go deep into struggle:
- for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
- against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
of WMUA Board members
- ...etc.
and [3] and [4] are some entry points for that ...'deepness'.
Sincerely,
Pavlo Shevelo (my WPnick is the same :))
[1]
http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%96%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%...
[2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaua [3] See the Talk page for [1] [4]
http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%9...
Sorry, all references are in Ukrainian (with Ukrainian titles, that's why URLs are so long) but Google translate works reasonably well to give the idea, at least for [1], which is most important _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org