http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html
The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of science."
This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages other than English.
I'm not sure what to suggest, but it struck me as relevant to language issues we face.
- d.
Would you please be more clear in
This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages other than English.
? I mean what kind of affects (positive/negative) do you mean and what is the cause "mechanism" between such governmental rulings and quality of projects in local (national) languages?
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:38 PM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html
The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of science."
This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages other than English.
I'm not sure what to suggest, but it struck me as relevant to language issues we face.
- d.
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2009/7/10 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
Would you please be more clear in
This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages other than English.
? I mean what kind of affects (positive/negative) do you mean and what is the cause "mechanism" between such governmental rulings and quality of projects in local (national) languages?
I'm not sure, that's why I just posted the link.
- d.
I mean what kind of affects (positive/negative) do you mean and what is the cause "mechanism" between such governmental rulings and quality of projects in local (national) languages?
I'm not sure, that's why I just posted the link.
As to me the long-term effects should be positive as more articles regarding science and technology in local language will be created.
Taking into account that improving of the scientific & technology terminology in this or that local language will need some time there could be some short-term effects like creation of articles in interim terminology to be reedited later
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:19 PM, David Gerarddgerard@gmail.com wrote:
2009/7/10 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
Would you please be more clear in
This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages other than English.
? I mean what kind of affects (positive/negative) do you mean and what is the cause "mechanism" between such governmental rulings and quality of projects in local (national) languages?
I'm not sure, that's why I just posted the link.
- d.
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On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 12:38 PM, David Gerarddgerard@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html
The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of science."
This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages other than English.
I'm not sure what to suggest, but it struck me as relevant to language issues we face.
Let's try with linguistics...
In slavistics is usual to write a paper in a native language + abstract in Russian, English or a native language of publication. Usually, all slavists know to read other Slavic languages.
But, if I am interested in description of phonemic system of Serbian language, I am much more interested in cooperation with Japanese linguists. If I am interested in distinction between alveo-palatal consonants, i have more interests to cooperate with Hungarian and Chinese linguists. If I am interested in well described synthetic language to compare it with Serbian, I should work with classical philologists specialized in Latin. And if I am willing to make any kind of generalization of language characteristics, I am interested to work with any linguist specialized in any language.
So, even a discipline with a lot of polyglots can't work without lingua franca.
2009/7/10 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
So, even a discipline with a lot of polyglots can't work without lingua franca.
I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with time as well as field.
- d.
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerarddgerard@gmail.com wrote:
2009/7/10 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
So, even a discipline with a lot of polyglots can't work without lingua franca.
I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with time as well as field.
English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of time for changing lingua franca.
English is the last lingua franca
So it's better to say Lingua Anglica http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,869957,00.html ;)
... In 20-30 years we'll have good enough translators
Do you mean computer tools like Google Translate or human interpreters?
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Milos Rancicmillosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerarddgerard@gmail.com wrote:
2009/7/10 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
So, even a discipline with a lot of polyglots can't work without lingua franca.
I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with time as well as field.
English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of time for changing lingua franca.
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On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Pavlo Shevelopavlo.shevelo@gmail.com wrote:
English is the last lingua franca
So it's better to say Lingua Anglica http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,869957,00.html ;)
... In 20-30 years we'll have good enough translators
Do you mean computer tools like Google Translate or human interpreters?
Computer tools. (I saw that I wasn't clear :) ) But I don't exclude computer add-ons for humans :)
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Milos Rancicmillosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerarddgerard@gmail.com wrote:
I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with time as well as field.
English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of time for changing lingua franca.
If someone knows someone, putting eight billion dollars a year into English-language teaching in Africa, China, Australia and elsewhere would be a good place to start.
-Stevertigo
2009/7/10 stevertigo stvrtg@gmail.com:
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Milos Rancicmillosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerarddgerard@gmail.com wrote:
I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with time as well as field.
English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of time for changing lingua franca.
If someone knows someone, putting eight billion dollars a year into English-language teaching in Africa, China, Australia and elsewhere would be a good place to start.
You're going to have to explain that one... what is wrong with the current English-language teaching in Australia?
Well, the Australians obviously need better English as a second language classes.
Mark
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Thomas Daltonthomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2009/7/10 stevertigo stvrtg@gmail.com:
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Milos Rancicmillosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerarddgerard@gmail.com wrote:
I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with time as well as field.
English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of time for changing lingua franca.
If someone knows someone, putting eight billion dollars a year into English-language teaching in Africa, China, Australia and elsewhere would be a good place to start.
You're going to have to explain that one... what is wrong with the current English-language teaching in Australia?
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Thomas Dalton wrote:
2009/7/10 stevertigo stvrtg@gmail.com:
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Milos Rancicmillosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerarddgerard@gmail.com wrote:
I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with time as well as field.
English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of time for changing lingua franca.
If someone knows someone, putting eight billion dollars a year into English-language teaching in Africa, China, Australia and elsewhere would be a good place to start.
You're going to have to explain that one... what is wrong with the current English-language teaching in Australia?
Maybe Henry Higgins could answer that.
--Michael Snow
Michael Snow wrote:
Thomas Dalton wrote:
2009/7/10 stevertigo stvrtg@gmail.com:
If someone knows someone, putting eight billion dollars a year into English-language teaching in Africa, China, Australia and elsewhere would be a good place to start.
You're going to have to explain that one... what is wrong with the current English-language teaching in Australia?
Maybe Henry Higgins could answer that.
Krikey! 'E's 'avin an 'ard enough time teachin' English to the limeys. ;-)
Ec
...he had to learn French and German well enough to read
I'd like to stress that he needed French *and* German meaning that in any field of activity dominating lingua franca (or lingua anglica ) is not the only foreign language that one will need to know in order to really profess that field.
Even in computer sciences & engineering where lingua anglica is undisputable dominator in some (not so rare) cases one should beg Google Translate to assist in grasping some article or forum posting made in Spanish, German, French… (to name a few)
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:53 PM, David Gerarddgerard@gmail.com wrote:
2009/7/10 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
So, even a discipline with a lot of polyglots can't work without lingua franca.
I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with time as well as field.
- d.
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On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 13:38, David Gerarddgerard@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html
The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of science."
It depends on the balance of the public's desires and the powers that be.
In the past Mahathir Mohammad has made very unpleasant comments about my country, and it is even less pleasant to me to read about his uneducated attitude towards the language of his own country.
I am not quite sure that *all* Malay parents, teachers and professors are very unhappy. The natural condition of any person around the world is to prefer their own language and to the best of my knowledge, there's nothing inherent in the Malay language that makes it less useful than English for teaching math (there could be - see [[Piraha]]). English can and should be taught separately as a foreign language, simply because it is, indeed, a useful lingua franca around the world, but all local languages should be equally respected and promoted among their speakers.
The article [[Technion]] in en.wp very briefly mentions the "language war" that occurred when the Institute of Technology in Haifa was opened in 1912. It deserves a full article, but until i write it, here's what basically happened: The German philanthropists who contributed money to the Technion and most of the teachers wanted to use German in the classroom, while public figures and educators from among the Jews who lived in Palestine then wanted the language of the instruction to be Hebrew. Despite the importance of German in exact sciences and engineering at the time, Hebrew eventually won thanks to the public pressure and Hebrew language experts of the time worked to adopt the language to be used in teaching modern science by inventing new words for the lacking terminology and writing basic textbooks.
Almost a hundred years later: Technion is a respected higher education institution. Hebrew is still the only language used in the classroom there (except in lectures by foreign guests). Most textbooks are in English, though, because few people bothered to translate them, but that's not a big problem, as the level of English around Israel is pretty good. It could be better, but i strongly doubt that teaching math in English in high school would improve it.
Wikimedia projects provide a good platform for developing local languages, although apparently only vigorous volunteers actually build Wikipedia's and Wikibooks in their languages. Sakha is a lovely example of a language project on WMF platform - it develops slowly, but surely, simply because the people behind it are true enthusiasts of their language. The interesting point is that the lingua franca used in their discussions is Russian, and one of the frequent topics is when to use Russian terminology in Sakha texts and when to use Sakha neologisms. The discussions themselves are very serious, and their very existence show a good deal of health of that small, but vibrant community.
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Amir E. Aharoniamir.aharoni@gmail.com wrote:
I am not quite sure that *all* Malay parents, teachers and professors are very unhappy. The natural condition of any person around the world is to prefer their own language and to the best of my knowledge, there's nothing inherent in the Malay language that makes it less useful than English for teaching math (there could be - see [[Piraha]]). English can and should be taught separately as a foreign language, simply because it is, indeed, a useful lingua franca around the world, but all local languages should be equally respected and promoted among their speakers.
There is no doubt that education in native language is very important. At the other side, ethnolinguistic situation in Malaysia (and especially in Indonesia) is very complex. It may be compared with the situation in India, when authorities tried to remove English as one of the official languages and to impose Hindi as the sole federal language.
You described just one category of linguistic situations: when technologically dominant group is trying to impose their language to a native population. All dominant Western language had or have such situations.
However, at the most of the planet, there are no doubts between dominant global language and a native one, but between dominant global and dominant regional/local language. I don't know numbers for Malaysia ([[Languages of Malaysia]] is almost a stub), but I may guarantee that Malaysian language for significant part of the population is not a native language. Or, like in Singapore, significant part of population knows at native or almost-native level at least three languages (typical situation may be: Malaysian, English and native language, which may be a distinctive dialect of Malaysian, too).
At last, as I pointed before, not knowing English is a significant handicap for one scientist, even in social sciences. In 20-30 years the situation will be different, but, we are living and working now, not in 20-30 years.
Hoi, Let us analyse this. The English Wikipedia is quite good at providing information about Science. The Malay Wikipedia is probably not as good. When the Malaysian government decides to have teaching to be conducted for many subjects in Malay, it will not detract anything from the English Wikipedia. All its information will be there. It will be there for everyone including people from Malaysia.
With scientific subjects taught in Malay, the audience for quality Wikipedia articles on science will grow. Consequently it will be more stimulating to write about scientific articles in Malay.
My conclusion is that nothing is lost for the English language Wikipedia and there is an opportunity for people to write about science in Malay and make these articles at least as good as the articles on the English language Wikipedia.
I do not have an opinion on the Malaysian government teaching in either English or Malay. With a Wikipedia hat on, I see first and foremost opportunities. That is not bad. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/10 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html
The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of science."
This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages other than English.
I'm not sure what to suggest, but it struck me as relevant to language issues we face.
- d.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 18:31, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Let us analyse this. The English Wikipedia is quite good at providing information about Science. The Malay Wikipedia is probably not as good.
I don't know how good are the science articles in the Malay WP, but i can tell that science articles in the Hebrew WP are pretty good, and this is most certainly a fruit of the early Zionist educators' insistence on instruction in Hebrew (I am talking about [[Eliezer Ben Yehuda]] and his followers).
David Gerard wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html
The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of science."
This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages other than English.
Likely in a positive way because of a need for more and expanded Bahasa language science articles.
Ec
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