On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84(a)gmail.com> wrote: I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the issue certainly isn't being ignored.

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Abbas Mahmoud <abbasjnr(a)hotmail.com> wrote: That's a pretty broad generalization - hopefully the organizing team will still make every effort to include as many people as possible, just in case you aren't 100% correct.

What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel). Image by FlamingText.com

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Abbas Mahmoud <abbasjnr(a)hotmail.com> wrote: At least some states are offering secondary passports to their citizens to avoid conflicts with entrence stamps. Mathias

Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I would need to check. The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure about Irak for instance): Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution. There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and Indonesia. Cheers Yaroslav

Visa In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry. It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new passport or a return certificate. To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different. Cheers Yaroslav

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.… This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? Cheers Yaroslav

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy &lt;moushirah(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: They do have this page on Wikimania2011wiki already: <http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Passport_stamping> -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023

Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel, of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just like those who turned up at Sun City. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not?

Assess the following scenario: If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)?

Not to mention that the visa itself has to be on the passport and remain there, no matter where the stamp goes. On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Abbas Mahmoud &lt;abbasjnr(a)hotmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote:

Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper?

--- On Wed, 8/11/10, wiki-list(a)phizz.demon.co.uk &lt;wiki-list(a)phizz.demon.co.uk&gt; wrote: There seem to regularly be similar issues. Boston there was people from some countries who could not get visas - People have suggested Wikmania never be held in US because not everyone would be allowed to enter Taipei there were diffculties for some PRC residents. Alexandria there were boycotts/ethical issues over the executions of LBGT Egytians - People suggested Wikimania never be held in a country where LBGT folks are persecuted These issues are not really good arguments for never having Wikimania in certain countries. They are good arguments for rotating Wikimania amoung a large variety of different sorts of countries. Birgitte SB

As explained on http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas, there are various ways to attain a visa entry to Israel even if you live in a country with no Israeli embassies. Further to that, there are actually a lot of prominent countries from which no visa is needed to enter Israel: http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IsraelVisaPolicy.PNG I really think that theoretical discussions on contrived scenarios on how to enter Israel are rather inane and do not further the conference in any way. We can and will offer specific assistance to people with specific, concrete difficulties, working with Israeli authorities to achieve the special exemptions needed for people who actually want to attend the conference but live in a place that makes it difficult for them to do so. Millions of tourists from dozens of counties enter Israel every year safely and smoothly. Flying to Israel is even considered especially safe, because of effective security procedures (as opposed to "security theater"). See y'all in Haifa! Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Thomas Dalton &lt;thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Abbas Mahmoud &lt;abbasjnr(a)hotmail.com&gt; wrote: Wouldn't it be more productive to stop talking about X and see if there are actual Wikimedians out there who wish to take part in the 2011 Wikimania but can't because of their local oppressive government and their laws and regulations? Mathias

On 8/12/10, Mathias Schindler &lt;mathias.schindler(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Even within Arab nations who have direct flights to Israel, the decision to attend has its own considerations, which makes this issue a complete relative and personal decision. Thanks for understanding. M > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

David Gerard wrote: Ticket booked? Now if I were trolling I'd be advising Ahmadinejad or Assad to have a bunch of people applying for visas and turning up at the airport or at the Jordanian border. When is the date again?

My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous for so many people. I can see why the Wikimedia Foundation may not be so interested in taking one side in any political/ethical debate outside its main mission. That's reasonable and understandable. But in my opinion the whole thing is about picking a place that is a 'good' host. Whether we can do something to solve the major issues of Wikimania 2011 or not, we should seriously think of adding a standard for Wikimania hosts: that they need to be generally easily reachable for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community. Poland was great. I loved it. I mean I really loved having meetings in such 'peaceful' countries without such debates. Why not? There are many of them. [Historically, the part below was written before the one that's above, something you may feel and notice! :)] That does not make any sense. Many people cannot, legally and socially, go to Israel and that's a fact not merely an opinion or a (legitimate and reasonable) choice. I dunno about Turkey, but no, it's impossible for people from the other countries to visit Israel for social reasons and these reasons cannot be ignored. Sure, it *is* your personal decision to make yourself at risk of serious consequences. Read below. That, simply, changes everything. The page doesn't say anything about Visas on a blank paper, but only the stamps. Also "Passport stamping" talks about "those countries may also search for Jordanian/Egyptian exit stamps from land borders with Israel". -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Osama Khalid &lt;osamak(a)gnu.org&gt; wrote: Several countries have had successful Wikimanias despite fraught circumstances, like travel restrictions or geopolitical controversies. Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc. shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it may be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend. No matter where it goes, some people will have a hard time getting there. It's just an inescapable fact. We shouldn't let "social considerations" (i.e. the decision to not recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating Wikimania in the country of an active chapter with committed organizers. Nathan

In Haifa and elsewhere in Israel, Arabs and Jews get along on a daily basis just fine, daily reality is stronger than everything. They meet at universities and workplaces and have friendly relationships - a natural matter, really. People, the Middle East is more complex and multifaceted than BBC lets you think, come judge for yourself. Harel On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Keegan Peterzell &lt;keegan.wiki(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:49:15PM -0400, Nathan wrote: Poland, Germany, Egypt, United States, Argentina and even Taiwan were easy for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community to come into and I don't think anyone had serious issue like the one we, Muslims and Arabs, are have here. Just to be clear, here are the projects the will have issues in being there; ar.*.org id.*.org fa.*.org ms.*.org sw.*.org (not all users, but many of them) Why not? It's as serious as the legal one. (I mean people think Israel is doing very nasty things to innocent people e.g. preventing food and medicines and killing thousands of citizens every now and then , and for them to go there is to recognize the legitimacy of what it does, and it may not be the best thing one can do!) Harel, you are missing the point. It isn't about how Muslims/Arabs within Israel get along. It's about the possibility of the rest of the strategic region to be there. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

Actually, the United States in the last decade has a very strict visa policy, I'm not so sure if some of the people Osama is referring to could so easily get in - this remains to be seen. Travel from Egypt or Jordan into Israel is cheap - how does that compare with flying to Taiwan? As I have already written perhaps a dozen times on three different mailing lists, we have good connections to Israeli authorities and will do our utmost to ease the entry of whoever wishes to attend. Governments can make exceptions under special circumstances (for example, Druze people from the Golan heights routinely cross the Israeli-Syrian border). Reaching out to the Middle East is very high on our priorities. We cannot do anything, however, against such things as travel to Israel being socially unacceptable or punishable in one's home country, or against people calling for the boycott of the conference, except for expressing our regret at these phenomena. Really, please refer to my previous answers on wikimania-l and on this list. I feel that there's nothing much more to add, this is becoming repetitive. Osama, if you are serious about this, please help us form the connections and the working relations with institutions and individuals in Arab countries who are sincerely interested in attending Wikimania 2011. That help would be invaluable. Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:20 PM, David Gerard &lt;dgerard(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

I sincerely amdmit that I agree with this view: very likely, a bid for Teheran, Ramallah or even Beijing would have had lots of critics, and reasonable ones. Nevertheless, alea iacta est, and I really appreciate the willingness of the Wikimedia Israel team to help partecipation of Arab\Muslim citizens. Somebody said that is better to focus on real people interested in going to Haifa, and Harel too is right when he says that a ''bridge'' (as you, Osama) to potential participants could be very helpful. We have one year still to arrange initiatives (as a enhanced streaming\virtual coverage of the event, with chats, skype calls and so on) and succeed difficulties, so is better to try. Aubrey

--- El jue 12-ago-10, Osama Khalid &lt;osamak(a)gnu.org&gt; escribió: I beg to disagree; getting into United states is anything but easy. And is not that Israel won't give visas to potential attendees; in this case is the home nation of the interested ones that sets obstacles. Additionally, the current political situation between given countries should not affect the realization of this apolitical, non-religious global conference that seeks worldwide collaboration. If anything, it should be taken as an integrating experience, such as it was for so many Wikimedians to be in Egypt, Taiwan, the Americas or Europe, getting to know people from around the globe. Cheers, MarianoC.-

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 03:59:38AM -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote: Maybe it depends, but I assume it won't be much harder for a European, Asian or African to get one than a Saudi. Why are we discussing this anyway? That's not the issue I'm trying to address here. I'm saying it's difficult. Maybe Israel wants Arabs to be there (this is out of topic, but I'd assume that they surely don't like the fact that they're being disrespected for their actions). But what's important here is, again, that many, many people won't be able to come. It's not about what Wikimania is what it is not. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

People are raising there worries about Wikimania being hosted in Israel (me included), but one thing we should all bear in mind is that there WAS a bidding process - and that was the most suitable moment for everyone to raise their voices and concerns by challenging the bidding teams with whatever questions that we may have in mind.

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:40:37AM +0000, Abbas Mahmoud wrote: True. That was a valid point I agreed with when I talked to some people at Wikimania Poland about this issue. I wonder if we can do more to publicize the process and to get more opinions involved. The only thing I'm trying to do is to explain why Israel is not a good choice, why I cannot get involved and how we can avoid such a conversation in the coming Wikimanias. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 04:43:13AM -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote: Maybe it isn't. Maybe it's also what the people at ar (and probably at fa/id/ms) think. Good to know, but it isn't about the US here and I don't think we should be discussing this right now right here. For that there is a scholarship. The economic reason isn't something to take too seriously for one host because, as far I know, many of us won't be able to go anywhere outside their country without the scholarship. Refusing to visit a place for religious reasons is personal-dependent. Right, but it's only an issue if that's true for so many people for meaningful reasons. When it was in Egypt I was told that half of the attendees were Arabs. They *want* to come so they shouldn't be ignored. I dunno about this. Yaroslav was talking about losing the passport. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

I'd just like to repeat the fact that Israel willingly stamps a separate insert page on request, so passports are not stamped if the passport bearer's doesn't want it. In that case you have no reason to "lose" it. Same should hold for a visa (visitors from US, EU and other countries don't require a visa), we're checking this out. Harel On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Bence Damokos &lt;bdamokos(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.