Advertizing Wikimania (youtube) livestreams on centralnotice

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Lodewijk

18 Aug 2017 18 Aug '17

9:45 a.m.

Hi all, Wikimania is well over, and now that everyone is slowly getting home, I'd like to touch on a hallway discussion that was going on during Wikimania. This was regarding the centralnotice banners advertizing a livestream of Katherine's and Christophe's presentation of the draft direction for the 2030 strategy. First a few quick facts: The banners were on Fri 11 Aug shown for 1,5 hour in 'emergency mode' on all English language projects (including Commons, meta) to all logged in, anonimous and mobile visitors. The campaigns can be found here <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:CentralNotice&subaction=noticeDetail&notice=WikimaniaLive>, here <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:CentralNotice&subaction=noticeDetail&notice=WikimaniaLiveLoggedin>and here <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:CentralNotice&subaction=noticeDetail&notice=WikimaniaLiveMobile>, for reference. The text in the banner was "Where will Wikipedia and Wikimedia be in 2030? Find out LIVE from Montreal" with a link to a youtube page with a stream <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdr2F8aB9y0> . I was quite taken by surprise with this, and taken aback. Here we were, the Wikimedia community telling all these visitors of Wikipedia and other projects that we are so important, that we should have them watch a presentation of a first draft of a direction of a strategy that still needs to be worked out. Not only was the text in the banner a bit misleading (I didn't see much crystal bowl gazing - but rather a statement of where we would like to go - but soit, I can overlook that), but it feels especially pretentious to me. Maybe this is a cultural matter, and in other cultures this kind of bragging (which is what it feels like to me) is normal. I could have understood an advertizement of this and other sessions to our logged in community members - that would actually have been a nice way of engaging them in an expensive conference that we would like more online audience to be part of. But only this session, and then all visitors of Wikimedia projects? No, thanks. Totally separate of the message displayed and whether we want to show it to this kind of large audience, I was surprised that this link was pointing to Youtube. This goes against our policies on Centralnotice <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CentralNotice/Usage_guidelines>, stating: "Wikimedia Owned - Banners must link to Wikimedia controlled domains (owned either by Wikimedia Foundation, Wikimedia affiliates or Wikimedia Volunteers identified to the Wikimedia Foundation)." I guess there is a very remote interpretation possible that the channel is owned by the Wikimedia Foundation, and I did not see any indication that Youtube was running ads on that particular channel. I was unable to locate any community discussions or consultation about this. Could someone at the WMF share where this was discussed prior to the decision, and could they explain their reasoning? I'm not looking to blame anyone for this - shit happens - but I would like to see some discussion on what we want and dont want to do in this field, so that we can actually learn from this exercise. I was told in (very rapid and somewhat unwilling) hallway discussions that this was signed off by multiple layers of management at the WMF, so I assume some documented reasoning and consultation is available. Best, Lodewijk

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Joseph Seddon

18 Aug 18 Aug

1:41 p.m.

...

Hi all, Wikimania is well over, and now that everyone is slowly getting home, I'd like to touch on a hallway discussion that was going on during Wikimania. This was regarding the centralnotice banners advertizing a livestream of Katherine's and Christophe's presentation of the draft direction for the 2030 strategy. First a few quick facts: The banners were on Fri 11 Aug shown for 1,5 hour in 'emergency mode' on all English language projects (including Commons, meta) to all logged in, anonimous and mobile visitors. The campaigns can be found here <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special: CentralNotice&subaction=noticeDetail&notice=WikimaniaLive>, here <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special: CentralNotice&subaction=noticeDetail&notice=WikimaniaLiveLoggedin>and here <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special: CentralNotice&subaction=noticeDetail&notice=WikimaniaLiveMobile>, for reference. The text in the banner was "Where will Wikipedia and Wikimedia be in 2030? Find out LIVE from Montreal" with a link to a youtube page with a stream <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdr2F8aB9y0> . I was quite taken by surprise with this, and taken aback. Here we were, the Wikimedia community telling all these visitors of Wikipedia and other projects that we are so important, that we should have them watch a presentation of a first draft of a direction of a strategy that still needs to be worked out. Not only was the text in the banner a bit misleading (I didn't see much crystal bowl gazing - but rather a statement of where we would like to go - but soit, I can overlook that), but it feels especially pretentious to me. Maybe this is a cultural matter, and in other cultures this kind of bragging (which is what it feels like to me) is normal. I could have understood an advertizement of this and other sessions to our logged in community members - that would actually have been a nice way of engaging them in an expensive conference that we would like more online audience to be part of. But only this session, and then all visitors of Wikimedia projects? No, thanks. Totally separate of the message displayed and whether we want to show it to this kind of large audience, I was surprised that this link was pointing to Youtube. This goes against our policies on Centralnotice <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CentralNotice/Usage_guidelines>, stating: "Wikimedia Owned - Banners must link to Wikimedia controlled domains (owned either by Wikimedia Foundation, Wikimedia affiliates or Wikimedia Volunteers identified to the Wikimedia Foundation)." I guess there is a very remote interpretation possible that the channel is owned by the Wikimedia Foundation, and I did not see any indication that Youtube was running ads on that particular channel. I was unable to locate any community discussions or consultation about this. Could someone at the WMF share where this was discussed prior to the decision, and could they explain their reasoning? I'm not looking to blame anyone for this - shit happens - but I would like to see some discussion on what we want and dont want to do in this field, so that we can actually learn from this exercise. I was told in (very rapid and somewhat unwilling) hallway discussions that this was signed off by multiple layers of management at the WMF, so I assume some documented reasoning and consultation is available. Best, Lodewijk _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- Seddon *Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* *Wikimedia Foundation*

Gheorghe Zugravu

5:40 p.m.

New subject: Advertizing Wikimania (youtube) livestreams on centralnotice

Hi to all, adding my 5c to this discussion - the video has a bit more than 3500 views (3642 to be precise at the time i checked). I found the number of views a bit contrary to the number of potential visualizations of English WP sites. all the best, /gheorghe On 18.08.2017 19:41, Joseph Seddon wrote:

...

Hey Lodewijk, Thanks for the e-mail on this. I'll get back to you after the weekend with an expansive and complete response but wanted to acknowledge your e-mail and agree that there is plenty to learn from, plenty that needs discussion as a community and that we need to find out what our readers are interested in receiving. Seddon On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > Wikimania is well over, and now that everyone is slowly getting home, I'd > like to touch on a hallway discussion that was going on during Wikimania. > This was regarding the centralnotice banners advertizing a livestream of > Katherine's and Christophe's presentation of the draft direction for the > 2030 strategy.

Joseph Seddon

5:45 p.m.

Hey Gheorghe, I'll respond to this in my reply next week :) Regards Seddon On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 9:40 PM, Gheorghe Zugravu < zugravu.gheorghe(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hey Lodewijk, Thanks for the e-mail on this. I'll get back to you after the weekend

with

an expansive and complete response but wanted to acknowledge your e-mail and agree that there is plenty to learn from, plenty that needs

discussion

as a community and that we need to find out what our readers are

interested

in receiving. Seddon On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > Wikimania is well over, and now that everyone is slowly getting home,

I'd

> like to touch on a hallway discussion that was going on during

Wikimania.

> This was regarding the centralnotice banners advertizing a livestream of > Katherine's and Christophe's presentation of the draft direction for the > 2030 strategy.

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- Seddon *Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* *Wikimedia Foundation*

K. Peachey

19 Aug 19 Aug

4:25 a.m.

I notice those youtube links didn't use the nocookie domain or display warnings about external youtube links, example being the previous WP Zero Petition <https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/WPZeroPetition> On 18 August 2017 at 22:45, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote:

...

Ziko van Dijk

1:34 p.m.

Just briefly a short comment: visitors should be approached with messages especially created for them. I am always sceptical of simply re-using a content made for one context/audience for another context/audience. Kind regards Ziko 2017-08-19 9:25 GMT+02:00 K. Peachey <p858snake(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

CentralNotice&subaction=noticeDetail&notice=WikimaniaLive>,

here <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:

CentralNotice&subaction=noticeDetail&notice=WikimaniaLiveLoggedin>and

here <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:

CentralNotice&subaction=noticeDetail&notice=WikimaniaLiveMobile>,

for reference. The text in the banner was "Where will Wikipedia and Wikimedia be in 2030? Find out LIVE from Montreal" with a link to a

youtube

page with a stream <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdr2F8aB9y0> . I was quite taken by surprise with this, and taken aback. Here we were,

the

Wikimedia community telling all these visitors of Wikipedia and other projects that we are so important, that we should have them watch a presentation of a first draft of a direction of a strategy that still

needs

to be worked out. Not only was the text in the banner a bit misleading (I didn't see much crystal bowl gazing - but rather a statement of where we would like to go - but soit, I can overlook that), but it feels

especially

pretentious to me. Maybe this is a cultural matter, and in other cultures this kind of bragging (which is what it feels like to me) is normal. I could have understood an advertizement of this and other sessions to

our

logged in community members - that would actually have been a nice way of engaging them in an expensive conference that we would like more online audience to be part of. But only this session, and then all visitors of Wikimedia projects? No, thanks. Totally separate of the message displayed and whether we want to show it

this kind of large audience, I was surprised that this link was pointing

Youtube. This goes against our policies on Centralnotice <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CentralNotice/Usage_guidelines>,

stating:

"Wikimedia Owned - Banners must link to Wikimedia controlled domains

(owned

either by Wikimedia Foundation, Wikimedia affiliates or Wikimedia Volunteers identified to the Wikimedia Foundation)." I guess there is a very remote interpretation possible that the channel is owned by the Wikimedia Foundation, and I did not see any indication that Youtube was running ads on that particular channel. I was unable to locate any community discussions or consultation about this. Could someone at the WMF share where this was discussed prior to

the

decision, and could they explain their reasoning? I'm not looking to

blame

anyone for this - shit happens - but I would like to see some discussion

what we want and dont want to do in this field, so that we can actually learn from this exercise. I was told in (very rapid and somewhat

unwilling)

hallway discussions that this was signed off by multiple layers of management at the WMF, so I assume some documented reasoning and consultation is available. Best, Lodewijk _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/

wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l

New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Joseph Seddon

23 Aug 23 Aug

8:12 a.m.

Hey Lodewijk, Apologies for the delay. This is my second attempt at replying because my first response was just getting bogged down in detail. So I'm going to jump into the crux of the issues. Given the resources that goes into Wikimania I do personally think that we have an obligation to try to maximise it's impact beyond the four walls of the conference venue. There have long been discussions about what Wikimania should be and the extent with which it could be leveraged as an outreach tool and I think that recording and streaming are both tools to help it reach it's potential. It comes up every single year and we manage to do it better some years than others. It ultimately takes a lot of coordination, some expertise and healthy dollop of time and a strong internet connection (at some point along the pipeline). This year the WMF, lead by the communications team, decided to experiment with running a fairly lightweight live stream setup of the main conference room and utilising it via social media, banners and a small segment of our donor list. This isn't the first time such a banner has run for a keynote. Something similar was done for one of the 2014 Wikimania Keynotes with the main auditorium streamed throughout in a similarish fashion to this year. We wanted to see what was possible, what could be learned, what should be done differently and whether it was something that we felt would be worth doing more of in the future. This was done with less planning that I would have hoped and as a result there will be much to learn from it and there will be a review of the streaming from this year and the activities around it and I imagine there will be clear recommendations going forward to next year. In terms of CentralNotice and its usage, there is a quite rightly many a question about whether this or any other usage of it is appropriate. CentralNotice is possibly the most powerful non-profit communication tool on the planet. So powerful that projects like Wiki Loves Monuments can achieve world records with it. Questions that we have, as a movement, never asked ourselves include how it could or should (an important difference) be used, what do we consider an efficient or effective usage, what are our readers interested in, what are our editors interested in, is it possible to give them a choice rather than force them to see everything or nothing? At the moment we lack the data to inform those conversations. I think a good chuck could be solved by simply asking readers and editors what they are interested in what they Regards Seddon

MZMcBride

4 Sep 4 Sep

8:52 p.m.

New subject: Advertizing Wikimania (youtube) livestreams on centralnotice

Joseph Seddon wrote:

...

In terms of CentralNotice and its usage, there is a quite rightly many a question about whether this or any other usage of it is appropriate. CentralNotice is possibly the most powerful non-profit communication tool on the planet. So powerful that projects like Wiki Loves Monuments can achieve world records with it. Questions that we have, as a movement, never asked ourselves include how it could or should (an important difference) be used, what do we consider an efficient or effective usage, what are our readers interested in, what are our editors interested in, is it possible to give them a choice rather than force them to see everything or nothing?

I'm really struggling to understand what you're saying here. You seem to be suggesting that the Wikimedia movement has never asked itself about CentralNotice spam. I happen to know that you're very aware of extensive discussions about the use of CentralNotice on this mailing list, on Meta-Wiki, and elsewhere. You ("Seddon (WMF)") heavily edited this page in 2016: <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CentralNotice/Usage_guidelines>. This page was created in May 2011. And even in May 2011 (over six years ago now), the overuse and abuse of CentralNotice was not a new topic. Given this, it's really difficult to understand what you mean when you suggest that reasonable considerations, such as not showing a stupid advertisement to every user, have somehow been overlooked to date. The exact opposite is demonstrably true and you know this. MZMcBride

Adam Wight

5 Sep 5 Sep

6:13 a.m.

New subject: Advertizing Wikimania (youtube) livestreams on centralnotice

Seddon was mostly agreeing with the sentiments here, so I don’t think it’s at all difficult to understand him. Granted, I’ve worked on CentralNotice and am familiar with the WMF’s internal discourse about the tool, and I even have some experience picking through Seddon’s coarse brogue ;-) Specifically, Seddon summed it up with:

...

In terms of CentralNotice and its usage, there is a quite rightly many a question about whether this or any other usage of it is appropriate.

Questions about WMF and community CentralNotice usage have come up on this list regularly, but never get anywhere, so yes we have discussed but the broader movement hasn’t prioritized the question and there don’t seem to be guidelines beyond “Avoid constant use!” [1]. When I was on the WMF’s Fundraising Tech team, we suspected that the greatest obstacle to collaborative management of these resources is simply:

...

At the moment we lack the data to inform those conversations.

There’s a long-standing task to make CentralNotice banner impression counts public [2], please comment and upvote there if you agree this might help us have measured debate about campaigns in the future. Of course, even once we can discuss impression counts there’s still a long road ahead: we’ll want to measure banner effectiveness in a uniform way, and will of course churn the policies for acceptable use. In the meantime, note that you can request impression counts for specific campaigns. I’m sure my colleagues will love that I suggested this.

...

I think a good chuck could be solved by simply asking readers and editors what they are interested in

@seddon: Sounds cool, can you speak more about that idea? How might that look for anonymous readers? Is there already a Phabricator task? -Adam [[mw:User:Adamw]] [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CentralNotice/Usage_guidelines [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T115042

...

Regards Seddon _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

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participants (7)

Adam Wight
Gheorghe Zugravu
Joseph Seddon
K. Peachey
Lodewijk
MZMcBride
Ziko van Dijk