Quoth its own page, the BOT's remit is " The Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees oversees the Wikimedia Foundation and its work", not the Movement. 

If the BOT wants to act as an actual representative body (which it doesn't claim to be) then it would need significant rework and a clear statement that that's what voters were voting for. 

As to the issue raised by another on meta-rfcs being dominated by en-wiki (although the stats I've seen on recent ones don't show a wild disparity compared to the large plurality of all editors), I actually raised a proposal specifically to factor that in for the actual UCOC ratification, but the selection of that method (to avoid a "turtles all the way down" issue) would inherently need to be something pre-standing - UCOC drafting committee would certainly be fine there. 

The WMF was heavily opposed to proposals to do a much more distributed approach to avoid that specific issue, in the last ratification meeting hosted. 
That meeting in general, unlike its predecessor, was significantly more fractious. 

In general, a good demonstration on why ratification methodologies are a good thing to specify before every side has had a chance to become highly invested in an actual draft language. 


Richard (Nosebagbear)

Unless otherwise stated within this email, any Movement Charter viewpoints expressed represent my own position(s), and not the aggregate judgement of the MCDC. 


On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 13:09, <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 355, Issue 1 (Gerard Meijssen)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 14:08:26 +0100
From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 355, Issue 1
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
        <CAO53wxUmGy3DO3aqEj4FdAkv6Ho6oEzaa7PxbpRjyGDgcbJzSA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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Hoi,
The community as such does not have any standing. They are represented by
some members in the board. People may volunteer to be part of all kinds of
committees. When they do they do not represent anything but themselves. The
committees play a role because they have been giving standing by the board.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 13:08, Nosebagbear <nosebagbear@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I don't believe I stated it had a remit under the law - indeed, I'm pretty
> confident I did not.
>
> Almost none of our bodies have legal personae, so that would have been an
> odd thing for me to say, so I'm somewhat confused on why you indicate I
> did.
>
> But we are a project that is built on our internally agreed
> responsibilities and relations - which includes our remits (the BOT, to the
> degree that even it has a legal remit, is fairly narrow). As an example,
> the UCOC drafting committee has a very clear remit, but not one that's
> enshrined in law.
>
> p.s. Mea culpa on forgetting to change the title - didn't want to change
> this one *now* as I don't know if that would split the thread. Happy for
> someone to change to an appropriate title.
>
> *Richard (Nosebagbear)*
>
> Unless otherwise stated within this email, any Movement Charter viewpoints
> expressed represent my own position(s), and *not* the aggregate judgement
> of the MCDC.
>
>
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 11:57, <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
>>         wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
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>>
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>>
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>>         wikimedia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 348, Issue 3 (Gerard Meijssen)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 12:56:51 +0100
>> From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 348, Issue 3
>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAO53wxVEwnU=
>> Aa-27GAuAJXy3yrJ25aJBkPKRyTk2-jJTSvBww@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>         boundary="00000000000056b3ac05d305c5c3"
>>
>> Hoi,
>> Why is it that you consider the "community" a single body that has a remit
>> under the law for anything? It is not and it has not.
>> Thanks,
>>       GerardM
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 11:40, Nosebagbear <nosebagbear@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Patrick,
>> >
>> > Firstly, you (and in this case, I mean, "I notified members of T&S
>> policy,
>> > directly, in discussions where they were involved, as did others" all
>> the
>> > way back in phase 1) were made aware of the community need for
>> ratification
>> > far before the ArbCom letter.
>> >
>> > Which of these is the case: that the WMF only notified the Board of a
>> need
>> > for actual community ratification when the Arbcom open letter was made,
>> or
>> > that the Board declined to consider it as a need prior to that point?
>> >
>> > Secondly, why does the Board feel that they should be "consider[ing] the
>> > input received so far on what would make a fair and practical process."
>> -
>> > there are only two bodies with a reasonable remit to be specifying the
>> > nature of any ratification method. In the weaker position is the UCOC
>> > drafting committee, and in the first place, the Community as a whole,
>> > probably by a meta-RfC. Please provide the reasoning for this process.
>> >
>> > *Richard (Nosebagbear)*
>> >
>> > Unless otherwise stated within this email, any Movement Charter
>> viewpoints
>> > expressed represent my own position(s), and *not* the aggregate
>> judgement
>> > of the MCDC.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 at 21:13, <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
>> >>         wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >>
>> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe, please visit
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimedia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
>> >>
>> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >>         wikimedia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >>
>> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> >> than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
>> >>
>> >> Today's Topics:
>> >>
>> >>    1. Re: [Marketing Mail] Re: Closing the comment period for the
>> >> Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Draft Guidelines and next step
>> >>       (Andreas Kolbe)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 21:12:54 +0000
>> >> From: Andreas Kolbe <jayen466@gmail.com>
>> >> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Marketing Mail] Re: Closing the comment
>> >>         period for the Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Draft
>> >> Guidelines
>> >>         and next step
>> >> To: Patrick Earley <pearley@wikimedia.org>
>> >> Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> >> Message-ID:
>> >>         <
>> >> CAHRTtW9h69ewsO1V3M6HzGn4EmUGLb0GvX9bKD+Q0Hi6T_F8jg@mail.gmail.com>
>> >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>> >>         boundary="00000000000055427605d280b9bb"
>> >>
>> >> Hi Patrick,
>> >>
>> >> Thank you for your clarification. So if I understand correctly, there
>> will
>> >> be no UCoC policy text review before sometime in 2023.
>> >>
>> >> As this is quite a long time away, would it be possible to provide some
>> >> answers to the questions I asked earlier?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/H4FGTRCTKKCLJXFQVWFOCHMZCOFE2KBM/
>> >>
>> >> For example: According to the Universal Code of Conduct, are
>> >> Wikipedians/Wikimedians allowed –
>> >>
>> >> – To blog about what happens on Wikipedia?
>> >>
>> >> – To discuss edits traceable to, say, the Russian or US government on-
>> and
>> >> off-wiki, without the permission of the people making these edits?
>> >>
>> >> – To discuss cases of individuals engaging in revenge editing or
>> >> subverting
>> >> Wikipedia for commercial or criminal ends (recall the recent Christian
>> >> Rosa
>> >> case), or to help the press with related enquiries (recall e.g.
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://www.dailydot.com/irl/wikipedia-sockpuppet-investigation-largest-network-history-wiki-pr/
>> >> and the input made by User:Doctree to that article)?
>> >>
>> >> – To notify the authorities when they believe a crime has been
>> committed
>> >> or
>> >> is about to be committed?
>> >>
>> >> Or should all of these actions categorically be considered harassment
>> of
>> >> fellow contributors, and the contributors engaging in these actions be
>> >> subject to blocks and bans?
>> >>
>> >> I think it is important for people to understand the Code's intent
>> >> correctly.
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >> Andreas
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 6:42 PM Patrick Earley <pearley@wikimedia.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Hi Andreas,
>> >> >
>> >> > The review of the policy text is planned one year after the close and
>> >> the
>> >> > ratification of the enforcement outlines, which are still being
>> revised
>> >> by
>> >> > the Drafting Committee.  Detailed information of the policy text
>> review
>> >> > will be communicated soon, as the revised guidelines are published
>> for
>> >> > comment and ratification.  The review will likely follow established
>> >> policy
>> >> > update formats, such as those used for the Terms of Use. [1]
>> >> >
>> >> > Patrick
>> >> >
>> >> > [1]
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use/Paid_contributions_amendment
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 11:10 AM Andreas Kolbe <jayen466@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi Patrick,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks. You say,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> *The policy was ratified by the Board last February.[1] That said, a
>> >> >> policy must be adapted over time as it is put into practice and
>> >> >> complications arise.  The main text of the UCoC must be adaptable,
>> and
>> >> >> there will be a full review and update of the text one year after
>> the
>> >> close
>> >> >> and ratification of the current phase, which is looking at
>> enforcement
>> >> >> pathways.[2] We fully expect refinements at that time.*
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If the policy was ratified last February, and "there will be a full
>> >> >> review and update of the text one year after the close and
>> >> ratification",
>> >> >> does that mean there will be some sort of review of the policy text
>> in
>> >> >> February 2022?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Or did you mean something else? And where will that review take
>> place?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanking you in advance for your clarification.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Best,
>> >> >> Andreas
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 6:05 PM Patrick Earley <
>> pearley@wikimedia.org>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Hello, all.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In reply to these questions and a few received via direct email:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Questions about the content of the Universal Code of Conduct policy
>> >> >>> itself are very legitimate, but unrelated to the current process
>> under
>> >> >>> review with the Board. The policy was ratified by the Board last
>> >> >>> February.[1] That said, a policy must be adapted over time as it is
>> >> put
>> >> >>> into practice and complications arise.  The main text of the UCoC
>> >> must be
>> >> >>> adaptable, and there will be a full review and update of the text
>> one
>> >> year
>> >> >>> after the close and ratification of the current phase, which is
>> >> looking at
>> >> >>> enforcement pathways.[2] We fully expect refinements at that time.
>> >> Figuring
>> >> >>> out how to manage some areas of policy is challenging. Doxxing is a
>> >> very
>> >> >>> difficult area to form policy around, and I know the Drafting
>> >> Committee
>> >> >>> from Phase 1 worked hard to reflect best practices around the
>> >> movement in
>> >> >>> this area.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> To clarify, Nosebagbear: Youngjin was reminding folks to get their
>> >> last
>> >> >>> thoughts in for the current work the Drafting Committee is doing on
>> >> >>> revising the text.  It wasn’t meant to imply that there will be no
>> >> more
>> >> >>> discussion on the Guidelines before a ratification process takes
>> >> place. The
>> >> >>> revisions to the draft Guidelines will be published on Meta for
>> >> comment and
>> >> >>> discussion as soon as the committee feels they have incorporated
>> the
>> >> input
>> >> >>> received over the last few months. This message was just meant as a
>> >> >>> reminder to anyone who might not have been aware of the draft
>> review.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In terms of what we’re reviewing with the Board, it is a process
>> for
>> >> >>> ratification in response to a request from the global arbitration
>> >> >>> committees. They are not being asked to ratify the Enforcement
>> >> Guidelines
>> >> >>> at this time. As to how and when ratification of the guidelines
>> will
>> >> take
>> >> >>> place, thoughts and opinions from the Drafting Committee, community
>> >> members
>> >> >>> and functionaries, and the Board of Trustees will inform the
>> details.
>> >> >>> We’ll communicate a full ratification plan after the Board meets in
>> >> >>> mid-December and considers the input received so far on what would
>> >> make a
>> >> >>> fair and practical process.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Patrick
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> [1]
>> >> >>>
>> >>
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg35984.html
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> [2]
>> >> >>>
>> >>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ#Periodic_reviews
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 11:37 PM Peter Southwood <
>> >> >>> peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> Fair comment.
>> >> >>>> P
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >>>> From: nosebagbear@gmail.com [mailto:nosebagbear@gmail.com]
>> >> >>>> Sent: 27 November 2021 13:04
>> >> >>>> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> >>>> Subject: [Marketing Mail] [Wikimedia-l] Re: Closing the comment
>> >> period
>> >> >>>> for
>> >> >>>> the Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Draft Guidelines and
>> next
>> >> step
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Hello,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> I would make a couple of notes here:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> One is that when you say "comment period will end", that can't be
>> of
>> >> the
>> >> >>>> process.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> There are numerous open questions that we have yet to see any
>> draft
>> >> >>>> policy
>> >> >>>> text on - they can't go into the final document without chance for
>> >> open
>> >> >>>> review and further revision.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> While I've heard bits about how they will be discussed, we've seen
>> >> >>>> nothing
>> >> >>>> formal and nothing in writing.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Please let me know BEFORE the 29th how that will be handled to the
>> >> >>>> community's expectations. As the inherently most controversial
>> bits
>> >> >>>> (that's
>> >> >>>> why they were open questions!) the actual next needs MORE time to
>> >> review
>> >> >>>> than the aspects already there, not less.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Yours,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Nosebagbear
>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>> >> >>>> guidelines at:
>> >> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> >> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> >> >>>> Public archives at
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/
>> >> >>>> message/GD5CSLNTF7XBCQVCEZT7CGD7XHQ2PRIQ/
>> >> >>>> <
>> >>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GD5CSLNTF7XBCQVCEZT7CGD7XHQ2PRIQ/
>> >> >
>> >> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> >> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> --
>> >> >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>> >> >>>> https://www.avg.com
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>> >> >>>> guidelines at:
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>> >> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> Patrick Earley
>> >> >>> Lead Trust & Safety Policy Manager
>> >> >>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> >> >>> pearley@wikimedia.org
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>> >> guidelines
>> >> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> >> >>> Public archives at
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>> >>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/6QWLWX53QN4S3FFZG7D2WDGFKIRAHDND/
>> >> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
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>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Patrick Earley
>> >> > Lead Trust & Safety Policy Manager
>> >> > Wikimedia Foundation
>> >> > pearley@wikimedia.org
>> >> >
>> >> >
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