Peter
Thank you for raising that issue. Since user Peter Southwood has just one
recorded edit on English Wikipedia, from 2012, (see
) I'm
puzzled by your speaking on behalf of the volunteer community. ("we do not
generally appreciate pontification from outsiders")
Thrapostibongles
On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 2:53 PM Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:
Thrapostibongles,
I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and find
that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015.
While it is possible that you have a long and distinguished edit history
under a previous name or as an IP editor, it leads me to wonder just how
familiar you are with the customs and culture of enwiki, which I freely
agree are non-optimal, but have evolved to sort of work in an environment
which was predicted to be impossible. Yet here we are, dysfunctionally
surviving when we are theoretically long extinct. Our dysfunctional mores
function as they do and evolve through surviving and occasional
modification by consensus of those who care enough to take part in the
process, within the environment in which we work. We are somewhere between
an anarchy and a community, and we do not generally appreciate
pontification from outsiders, which is what you appear to be, and to a
large extent, what we consider WMF to be. It is a problem. If WMF chooses
to rule by fiat it will have interesting consequences. So far they have
mostly avoided that, and when they have it has not ended well. If you
consider yourself an expert in something relevant I invite you to show
evidence of your credentials. Otherwise we will take your comments as we do
those of any other unproven internet commentator.
This is just my personal take, I do not presume to represent anyone else.
You are as free to ignore me as I am to ignore you, but engaging in this
discussion has its consequences, and one of them is to be questioned.
Cheers,
Peter Southwood
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles
Sent: 12 June 2019 09:06
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block
Yaroslav,
I think it's reasonably clear that the English Wikipedia community and its
community structures, such as its Arbitration Committee, and processes are
not capable of maintaining a productive, harassment-free environment for
the volunteer workers. For example, they have consistently failed, after
several attempts, to handle the case of a volunteer who used the word
"Cxxx" about a fellow worker, and the community has agreed that telling
others to "Fxxx off" is acceptable. These are symptoms of a dysfunctional
community, which tolerates behaviour that is unacceptable in any collegial
working environment, and it is right that the Foundation should step in.
Thrapostibongles
On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 4:56 PM Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The point made by pretty much everyone is not
that Fram should or should
not be banned, but that the process in this case should have followed the
standard dispute resolution avenues, More specifically, the case should
have been communicated to the Arbitration Committee, whose members did
sign
the non-disclosure agreement.
This is different from the past cases when users were banned by WMF,
since
in this case it was made clear the case is based
on on-wiki open activity
of Fram (and, specifically, only on the English Wikipedia). The on-wiki
activity is subject to the community policies.
To be clear, I am not a friend of Fram, and in the past supported desysop
on a number of occasions.
Cheers
Yaroslav
On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 5:46 PM Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
People who oppose the ban: Are you aware of all
aspects and things Fram
has
> done? Do you have the full picture? It's really saddening to see how
fast
people
jump to conclusion in page mentioned in the email. I personally,
don't know what happened so I neither can support or oppose the ban. As
simple as that.
So what should be done IMO. If enwiki wants to know more, a community
body
> can ask for more information, if body satisfy two things:
> - They had signed NDA not to disclose the case
> - They are trusted by the community
>
> I think the only body can sorta work with this is stewards but not sure
> (Does ArbCom NDA'ed?)
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulosperneta(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Lack of transparency from the WMF, whatelse is new.
> > I'm currently under a funding ban secretly decided (by who?) based
on a
> > false accusation, without providing any
evidence. Until now I'm
waiting
> for
> > an explanation from the WMF. So, this sort of attitude doesn't
surprise
> me
> > at all.
> > It is very unfortunate that the WMF apparently thrives in this kind
of
>
medieval obscurity, the opposite of the values of the Wikimedia
Movement.
Matter
for Roles & Reponsibilities.
Best,
Paulo
Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminikuta(a)gmail.com> escreveu no dia terça,
11/06/2019
> à(s) 05:45:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for this.
> >
> > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dismayed by the unilateralism
and
> > > lack of transparency.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jun 10, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Techman224 <techman224(a)techman224.ca>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Forwarding to WIkimedia-l since WikiEN-l is relatively dead.
> > > >
> > > > Since this message, an Arbcom member (SilkTork) stated that they
> > weren't
> > > consulted, nor did this action was the result of Arbcom forwarding
a
> concern to the office. [1]
> >
> > The only non-response excuse from the WMF [2] was that "local
> communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own
autonomous
> > rules but the Terms of Use, too.” even though there were no
complaints
>
on-wiki nor to Arbcom privately.
> >
> > The on-wiki discussion is taking place at the Bureaucrats and the
Arbcom
> noticeboards.
> >
> >
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fra…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard#User:F…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticebo…
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Commi…
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Commi…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Statemen…
> > > >
> > > > Techman224
> > > >
> > > >> Begin forwarded message:
> > > >>
> > > >> From: George Herbert <george.herbert(a)gmail.com>
> > > >> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block
> > > >> Date: June 10, 2019 at 8:54:34 PM CDT
> > > >> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > >>
> > > >> In case you're not following on-wiki - Office S&T blocked
English
> >
Wikipedia
> > >> user / administrator Fram for a year and desysopped, for
unspecified
>
>> reasons in the Office purview. There was a brief statement here
from
> >> Office regarding it which gave no
details other than that normal
policy
> and
> >> procedures for Office actions were followed, which under normal
> >> circumstances preclude public comments.
> >>
> >>
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fra…
> >
>>
> > >> Several people on Arbcom and board have commented they're making
> private
> > >> inquiries under normal reporting and communication channels, due
to
> > the
> > > >> oddity and essentially uniqueness of the action.
> > > >>
> > > >> There was an initial surge of dismay which has mellowed IMHO
into
"Ok,
> > >> responsible people following up".
> > >>
> > >> I understand the sensitivity of some of the topics under Office
> actions,
> > >> having done OTRS and other various had-to-stay-private stuff
myself
at
> > >> times in the past. A high profile investigation target is most
> unusual
> > but
> > >> not unheard of.
> > >>
> > >> I did send email to Fram earlier today asking if they had any
public
> > > >> comment, no reply as yet.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> -george william herbert
> > > >> george.herbert(a)gmail.com
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > >> WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > >>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > > >
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