I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension._______________________________________________On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be wrong, but judging from https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD 16,000 a month.Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even USD 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot._______________________________________________On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55 AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:or the 3am meetingsOn Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of travel.On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place, buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and doesn't feel immoral, at least to me._______________________________________________On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00 AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to Romania or something)Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com> wrote:_______________________________________________I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can example a few.I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is one reason why this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's a few others off the top of my head:
- Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they own.
- Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members angry.
- Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to deprecate functionality.
- Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
- Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature requests is not a roadmap).
There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And, not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.Dan
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