Hi Natacha,
I am not opposed to UCoC but I am afraid you have unrealistic expectations.
We do have serious behavioral problems in the big communities. One of them,
for example, is that the general tone of discussions is very aggressive and
prevents some categories of users, for example, women, from participating.
A completely different one is a proliferation of POV pushers in all
possible topics. However, UCoC will not solve these problems. It will not
solve any problems of the French Wikipedia.
The point is that big projects had twenty years to solve behavioral
issues, and have developed an extensive system of policies and guidelines
to deal with them. In some cases, policies are missing because the
communities were not able to come up with a good solution, acceptable for
everyone, and it is very naive to think that a small dedicated group will
be able to develop something better in two months. I see that it does not
even pretend doing this, which is a good thing, but even if they were
thinking they know better than the communities such UCoC were impossible to
enforce. Another reason sometimes is that policies already exist but are
not fully enforced - and here UCoC will not help either, the projects must
look themselves and figure out why the policies are not enforced.
Where UCoC can potentially help are small projects without well-developed
conduct policies. A few year ago, a user was blocked on the Acehnese
Wikipedia for something that the admin thought is an insult to Islam (I
believe posting non-offensive images of people but I muight be wrong). On
the Chechen Wikipedia, a user was blocked for stating that Chechnya is part
of Russia. A couple of years ago, a user was blocked on the Amcharic
Wikipedia, and the admin said openly gay users are not allowed to edit
because this is contrary to Ethiopian tradition. The Croatian Wikipedia is
essentially governed by a clique blocking everybody who disagrees, and
nobody can do anything about it. These are the showcases where UCoC may be
(or even might be) instrumental, and only if one thinks very well what the
instruments could be. Not on the big projects.
Best
Yaroslav
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:55 AM Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
Hello,
A code of conduct id something many of us have asked the WMF to write for
many years. We are asking the WMF to take an active part in stopping
abusive behaviors in our community.
On fr wiki, many admins say they are tired of conflicts and that they did
not enroll to deal with them. A code of conduct could help then take action
because it offers a frame.
This is COMPLETELY different with the branding process.
We are one of the few projects in the open source world without a code of
conduct.
So thank you for this draft, thank you for opening up for discussions, and
I hope the language will remain respectful.
I believe moderators should ban from this list the person who spoke about
« wmf flatulence ».
I dont want to read that type of language among people who are supposedly
asked to write neutral enccyclopedias.
It puts pressure and stress on those who would like to answer on this
thread, it sets an aggressive climate.
Please could we all feel empowered to apply our founding principles and
refuse any such language here and on meta in these discussions?
Kind regards,
Nattes à chat
Envoyé de mon iPhone
Le 10 sept. 2020 à 03:53, Gnangarra
<gnangarra(a)gmail.com> a écrit :
Yair
I was in the room in 2017 when the first community consultation on the
strategy program took place. Affiliates were asked to send a person
specifically for the strategy process, and WMF also invited some other
community members. There was absolutely no coercion, or control over what
topics were raised during those discussions. The program was not run by
the
WMF and everyone was free to contribute any ideas
they had, as the
program
went on we chose which areas and topics we wanted
to be the focus. Trust
and safety, and user conduct were areas that were identified as necessary
to the future development of the movement. This process has been open for
ideas, comments, and suggestions. Yes the WMF has funded the process but
every choice has been made by community members without any duress or
reward as to where each step lead.
As someone who actively runs projects for the last 10 years to bring in
new
contributors, I have concerns about the UCoC
process in giving advantages
to those who have been around longer but that is not something that will
be
unique to this as its already an issue in all
projects where the new
person
is the one frequently dismissed as wrong when
there is a clash between
them and someone who has been around long enough to be known.
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 09:11, Yair Rand <yyairrand(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The UCoC is obviously a WMF-driven project. It was announced in June
2019
> by a member of the WMF Trust and Safety team,
was added to the strategy
> process by the group of WMF appointees (or sometimes WMF
> appointee-appointees) who made up the working group, had
> pseudo-consultations about it started by WMF staff (with
wildly-misleading
> reports written up afterward, again by the
WMF), and the UCoC itself was
> drafted by a mixed group of WMF staff and WMF appointees, through a
process
> set by the WMF.
>
> The communities have repeatedly expressed unambiguous consensus against
> having a WMF-imposed UCoC. The WMF has absolutely no business in setting
> ordinary conduct policy, and they could have the ED and every board
member
> and C-level declare the UCoC to be policy,
and threaten every affiliate
> into declaring it as policy, and the only impact would be demonstrating
how
> far removed they are from Wikimedia. The
communities are self-governing
and
> will implement policy based on community
decisions.
>
> That said, I disagree with Dan's calls for
nonparticipation/noncooperation
> or for specifically withholding funds or
support. If we end up in a
> situation where the WMF tries to block, desysop, threaten, or sue
> contributors, or to seize control over the projects, that would be the
time
> for all editors and affiliates and donors to
level-headedly level the
> Foundation to its foundations. Until then, we should attempt to work
with
> them, even when their behaviour leaves much
to be desired.
>
> -- Yair Rand
>
>
>
> בתאריך יום ד׳, 9 בספט׳ 2020 ב-16:03 מאת Jackie <
> jackie.koerner@gmail.com>:
>
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> I hear that you are upset by the suggestion and likely implementation
of
> a
>> Universal Code of Conduct. I also hear that you feel like this is a
>> WMF-driven project. I cannot change your opinion about the UCoC, but I
> can
>> say your feelings about this being a WMF-driven project are untrue. It
>> doesn't matter how strongly you feel this, it's actually many groups of
>> people working together. It was determined as a major need during
>> discussions I had as part of the Community Health Working Group and I
am
>> glad to see this moving forward.
>>
>> I am glad you feel comfortable expressing yourself and your feelings
> about
>> the UCoC. I also would like to say the way in which people express
>> themselves and mask insults as "lively discussion" is a huge reason
why
> we
>> need a UCoC. To that point, I agree with Isaac and would suggest you
> share
>> in a (collegiate) conversation on the Meta talk page. I just cannot
take
>> you seriously with the language you used
in your email. I, however,
would
>> love to take your comments seriously and
have you engage in a
good-faith
>> discussion about the UCoC.
>>
>> Our roles in the discussion should consider not only our needs as
>> individuals but the needs of the broader communities. To dismiss the
UCoC
>> is failing to recognize privilege and
power structures and their effect
> on
>> people in and outside of the Wikimedia community.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jackie
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:42 PM Isaac Olatunde <
reachout2isaac(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Dan,
>>>
>>> You are allowed to offer an opinion but I Honestly think that's better
>> and
>>> more useful on the Draft talk page.
>>>
>>> That being said, by "effective vote or representation in the
>> proceedings",
>>> you probably expected a different model where different language
>>> Wikip(m)edia community would be represented or vote on weather to have
> a
>>> UCoC.
>>>
>>> The current model isn't bad. I do think we should review the draft
and
>> if
>>> there are specific wording we disagree with, we can either suggest
>>> improvement or removal altogether. I honestly think we need to help
and
>>> support the drafting committee at
this stage.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Isaac
>>>
>>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 19:25 Dan Szymborski, <dszymborski(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm also perfectly free to express to the IRS that I'd really
like to
>>> get a
>>>> $10 million check from them at tax time. The ability to offer an
>> opinion
>>> on
>>>> proceedings with no effective vote or representation in the
> proceedings
>>> is
>>>> about as good as a fart in the wind. I'd prefer the WMF keep its
>>> flatulence
>>>> to itself.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 2:17 PM Isaac Olatunde <
>> reachout2isaac(a)gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On the contrary, I do not think this is an imposition by the Board
> or
>>> WMF
>>>>> as we are allowed to comment on the draft, and suggest improvement.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have been following the process closely and I do not see anything
>>> that
>>>>> looks like an "imposition"
>>>>>
>>>>> The Universal Code of Conduct is not a substitute to the existing
>>> policy
>>>> or
>>>>> guidelines but a behavioural guidelines expected of users in any
>>>> Wikimedia
>>>>> project.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Isaac
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 16:11 Dan Szymborski,
<dszymborski(a)gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As this is being explicitly imposed by the board from above
> without
>>>>>> community approval, participating in any way is ethically
> unsound.
>>>> Doubly
>>>>>> so without a board election preceding this as the WMF has
>> arbitrarily
>>>>>> denied communities the right, as manifested in the election of
> the
>>>>>> community seats, to voice their opinions of actions that WMF has
>>> taken
>>>>> over
>>>>>> the last 18 months. A collaborative process is a collaborative
>>> process
>>>>> when
>>>>>> it's actually a collaborative process, not just when it's
called
>> one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The best use of time at this point is to organize the
communities
>> to
>>>> use
>>>>>> every means at its disposal to resist such an imposition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM Patrick Earley <
>> pearley(a)wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello, everyone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of
> Conduct
>>>>>>>
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct>,
>> which
>>>> the
>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier
this
>> year
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_…
>>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>> for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open
until
>>>> October
>>>>>> 6,
>>>>>>> 2020.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The UCoC Drafting Committee
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
>>>>>>>> wants
>>>>>>> to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges
for
>> you
>>> or
>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and
> what
>>>> could
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> improved?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped
with
>>>>>> translations
>>>>>>> so far.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please join the conversation
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>
>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review
>>>>
>>>>>>> and share this email with others who may be interested to
join,
>>> too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code
of
>>>> Conduct
>>>>>>> page
>>>>>>>
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct>,
> and
>>> the
>>>>> FAQ
>>>>>>>
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ
>> ,
>>> on
>>>>>> Meta.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [2]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_…
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [3]
>>>>>>
>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review
>>>>>>> [4]
>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Patrick Earley
>>>>>>> Policy Manager, Trust and Safety
>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>>>>> pearley(a)wikimedia.org
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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--
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jackiekoerner.com
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