We did have a proposal on EN WP for a group of functionaires to help deal
with issues pertaining to undisclosed paid editing. I do not feel this
group would require payment but support to meet once or twice a year IMO
could be useful. Such a group could play a leading roll in:
1) Collecting and organizing the knowing companies that are in breach of
our TOU. This will help warn people not to hire these companies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PAIDLIST
2) Collecting groups of known undisclosed paid editors to feed into the AI
tools that are being build. More AI folks would also be helpful.
3) Managing private details about undisclosed paid editing
4) Working with intermediaries like Upworks to help address some of the
worst offenders working via that site among others
Arbcom has recently agreed to take on some of this work but not sure if
they have the time or inclination to manage it fully.
With respect to appreciate for work on Wikipedia / Wikimedia, we have few
mechanism for our readers to provide such feedback. And members of the
community are often more critical of our efforts than the wider world. The
offline apps are interesting as Google play provides better mechanisms for
positive feedback and reading the feedback helps remind me that what we are
doing really does matter.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.kiwix.kiwixcustomwikimed
James
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 6:19 AM, Anders Wennersten <mail(a)anderswennersten.se
wrote:
> I can agree with most what you write Yaroslav, but I want also to remind
> the scenario that started this issue.
>
> I believe we are in a process of worsening deterioration of the content in
> our major project (Enwp,dewp etc). This as the rewards to enter biased info
> in these are getting higher as the reliability in our content/brand project
> increase. At the same time there are indication that the people "at the
> front" of neutralizing these "attack" are getting fewer and
overstrained.
> (number of admins of the being decreasing). According to me it forces us to
> act before the situation gets out of control (we lose the quality and
> credibility in our content). And the choices, as I see it, is to either
> give up our vision "free to all to update" (only validated accounts to
> update) or to strengthen our "defending" forces.
>
> It is not unique to have participant in our project to being given
> financial support. We have our Wikipedian in residence, and at the top in
> the hierarchy of Check users we have WMF employee, and in my understanding
> these cooperations work OK.
>
> I have no direct suggesting how a model to financial support these
> defenders should look like and I do not see it being many perhaps 10-15 in
> total. But I do think it would be a good ting discuss these option, and see
> if a proposal could be put forwards without the negative risks you mention.
>
> Anders
>
>
>
> Den 2018-06-10 kl. 12:30, skrev Yaroslav Blanter:
>
>> If it goes back as a salary, you have people
>> working together, some of them being paid for the work, and some doing it
>> for free. If there is any conflict, "volunteers" getting salary will
>> defend
>> their decision until they get blocked.
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 7:01 AM, Natacha Rault <n.rault(a)me.com
wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for having this conversation.
>>> Having a balanced life is important, but why should the revenues
>>> generated
>>> by volunteer work not go back to volunteers also?
>>> In truth, wikimedia projects are addictive, time consuming, they generate
>>> passionate debates and I have seen many going down the black hole and
>>> finding it hard to manage “priorities”.
>>> This situation is detrimental to those who struggle most to survive.
>>> Should contributing be the activity of only those rich people who can
>>> afford to be volunteers on their free time? I dont think so.
>>> Tackling with gendergap issues, I see many women not contributing because
>>> they say “it’s time consuming” and they cant afford it.
>>> I don’t know how to deal with these issues, but at the core of
>>> implementing “strategic orientations” which include diversity issues,
>>> well
>>> it is a must have conversation.
>>> As for the wikimedia blog I dont really have an idea on that: if the WMF
>>> does it, finances it, well ... At the same time it would need to remain
>>> under free licence so that we can use the stories in our projects,
>>> because
>>> the revenue paying it is generated from our volunteer work.
>>>
>>> Have a nice day, I have just bought myself a canoe kayak, which is the
>>> only way for me not to get entangled in contributing on a bright sunny
>>> day.
>>> I cant bring my computer on the river!
>>> I think we should finance “wikimedians go green off wiki for the week end
>>> projects”. Some days off the internet walking, swimming, having chats by
>>> a
>>> fire wood and just taking care of ourselves off wiki.
>>>
>>>
>>> Nattes à chat
>>>
>>> Le 10 juin 2018 à 05:38, Bodhisattwa Mandal <bodhisattwa.rgkmc(a)gmail.com
>>>> >
>>>>
>>> a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Hi David,
>>>>
>>>> I hear you.
>>>>
>>>> I live in that part of the world where getting any job and earning
>>>> money,
>>>> by any means possible, is the topmost priority of life, as unemployment
>>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>> corruption has become intimate part of most of the people. Involvement
>>>> in
>>>> volunteer works with no personal or financial gain, is not appreciated
>>>> at
>>>> all and sanity is frequently questioned even by family members and close
>>>> friends. The real life is far more harsh for us than the issues we face
>>>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>> Wikipedia.
>>>>
>>>> But, I have seen people, who have fought against all extreme odds to
>>>>
>>> create
>>>
>>>> contents in Wikimedia. I met an Wikimedian, who would have no food or
>>>>
>>> money
>>>
>>>> for the next day to survive, if he didn't go and look for some
labour
>>>>
>>> work
>>>
>>>> and earn some money for his family, yet learned advanced computer works
>>>> from scratch with the help of a Jurassic age broken laptop gifted by a
>>>> well-wisher and built the most impactful project in his language,
>>>> believe
>>>> me, I have seen that laptop with my own eyes. I know someone, very close
>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>> my heart, who once spent the small amount of money he had with him, to
>>>>
>>> pay
>>>
>>>> the cyber cafe, he went almost everyday to edit Wikipedia, even if he
>>>>
>>> knew,
>>>
>>>> that the money he was spending, was his last resort for that day. These
>>>> Wikimedians are no less than a legend to me and whenever I feel
>>>>
>>> frustrated
>>>
>>>> and burnt out, I remember them. I am pretty sure, everyone in this
>>>>
>>> movement
>>>
>>>> knows someone amazing.
>>>>
>>>> You are absolutely right, people who build Wikipedia from their core of
>>>> their heart are not heard or appreciated in larger Wikimedia world, some
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>> them are silently contributing forl a long time , without any
>>>> expectation
>>>> from anyone. On the other hand, I have seen loud mouths with almost no
>>>> substantial or impactful contribution at all, being featured everywhere
>>>>
>>> on
>>>
>>>> a regular basis. That's an unfair world we everyday deal with and
>>>>
>>> Wikimedia
>>>
>>>> is not an exception.
>>>>
>>>> I will totally support you, if you create a meta page for these silent
>>>> volunteers, who needs to be seen.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 10 Jun 2018, 01:56 David Cuenca Tudela,
<dacuetu(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>
wrote:
>>>
>>>> Aubrey,
>>>>>
>>>>> You speak so much truth in your words that I'm feeling
overwhelmed
>>>>> right
>>>>> now. Because like a doctor who cares about his patient, you have
just
>>>>>
>>>> very
>>>
>>>> lovingly and figuratively told me, "you are deeply sick". It
hurts, I
>>>>> struggle accepting the truth, but deep inside I know that the only
>>>>>
>>>> thing I
>>>
>>>> can do is to acknowledge your words, and as every human before of me ask
>>>>> the perennial questions: "why me? what could have I done
differently?"
>>>>>
>>>>> You are right, I put my whole being into this project, I have seen
it
>>>>>
>>>> as a
>>>
>>>> way to find purpose, meaning, liberation, and instead what I have found
>>>>>
>>>> is
>>>
>>>> the emptiness, my own and that of the people who are in the same
>>>>>
>>>> situation
>>>
>>>> as me. Maybe they also need the same things as I do, but we never talked
>>>>> about it so I don't know what they need, they never told me.
Unlike
>>>>>
>>>> other
>>>
>>>> people, however, I do know what I need to find purpose here.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me purpose comes from the mutual acknowledgment with my peers
that
>>>>> we
>>>>> are here for something bigger than ourselves. We might never achieve
>>>>>
>>>> those
>>>
>>>> dreams, but being next to someone who understands you because they are
>>>>>
>>>> in
>>>
>>>> the same situation, makes life more bearable. But do we share the same
>>>>> dream or aspiration at all? Has anyone ever take a collective vow to
>>>>>
>>>> show
>>>
>>>> to themselves and to others that this is what matters in their life, and
>>>>> that they are committing to it? I do not think anyone has ever done
>>>>>
>>>> that.
>>>
>>>> You say that you have given up, but I do not want to reach that point. I
>>>>> feel I want to try to build a real community environment and give
>>>>>
>>>> everyone
>>>
>>>> a chance before giving up on them.
>>>>>
>>>>> My desire as I was typing my email was to be seen, to be recognized
by
>>>>>
>>>> who
>>>
>>>> I am, to be understood even. That is something that only a true friend
>>>>> could do for me, but as you say we are not good friends even if we
did
>>>>>
>>>> some
>>>
>>>> cool things together. We want to collect "all human knowledge",
but
>>>>>
>>>> what do
>>>
>>>> we actually know about each other? Is that not valid knowledge or what?
>>>>>
>>>> In
>>>
>>>> my opinion the knowledge about the people in this movement, what they
>>>>>
>>>> do,
>>>
>>>> who they are, what are their dreams, their aspirations, should be
>>>>>
>>>> collected
>>>
>>>> with at least as much interest as we collect all other kind of
>>>>>
>>>> knowledge.
>>>
>>>> Yet nobody does that.
>>>>>
>>>>> If there is no collective information about who I am and what I have
>>>>>
>>>> done
>>>
>>>> these years, how can I expect other people to value me as much as I
>>>>>
>>>> want to
>>>
>>>> value them? I am as guilty as anyone else for not caring about my fellow
>>>>> volunteers in this project, but that doesn't need to continue
being
>>>>> that
>>>>> way, it can change. I can commit to write a page on Meta about any
>>>>> volunteer who wants their work on this project to be seen and
>>>>>
>>>> recognized,
>>>
>>>> and of course anyone can do that for me to. We only need the will.
>>>>>
>>>>> You say that that WMF bears responsibility in the "failure"
of our
>>>>> Wikisource community project, and that it is not important now. I do
>>>>> not
>>>>> agree about the timing, I find it is very relevant now, because the
>>>>> same
>>>>> pattern that has happened before, it is happening again now. And the
>>>>> pattern is that of the individual voice vs. the organization. We are
>>>>>
>>>> like
>>>
>>>> ants next to a giant, we complain and say what we need, but we are so
>>>>> little in comparison that our voice doesn't reach any ears. For
>>>>>
>>>> Wikisource
>>>
>>>> we thought, ok, if we are not being heard as individuals maybe we'll
be
>>>>> heard as an organization, but that didn't happen either! So now
that I
>>>>>
>>>> have
>>>
>>>> this issue about the Wikimedia Blog and I complain about it, I feel
>>>>> helpless because it is again an individual standing up against a
>>>>>
>>>> behemoth
>>>
>>>> that will not listen neither to myself as individual nor to myself as an
>>>>> organization. What is there for me left to do?
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing it is left for me to do is to question the legitimacy
of
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>
>>>> WMF as the leadership organization of the Wikimedia movement,
>>>>>
>>>> understanding
>>>
>>>> leadership as the capacity to listen to many individual voices and act
>>>>>
>>>> in a
>>>
>>>> way that is beneficial to all of them. If the WMF is incapable of
>>>>>
>>>> listening
>>>
>>>> to my individual voice, then I want either a reform in the WMF to
>>>>>
>>>> include
>>>
>>>> people who are able to listen at the top of the hierarchy, or a new
>>>>> organization who can listen and create a common vision out of what
it
>>>>> hears. Things like the Strategy process are supposed to help with
this
>>>>> goal, however I feel it doesn't offer the space for day to day
>>>>>
>>>> activities
>>>
>>>> or to challenge participants with new ideas, then it has no use for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> So yes, I will follow your advice and I will pick my battles,
putting
>>>>> myself first. In this case my battle from this moment on is to
>>>>> recognize
>>>>> the authority of the Wikimedia movement as a whole, and build
>>>>> leadership
>>>>> legitimacy for me and all those in the movement who are able to
listen.
>>>>>
>>>> I
>>>
>>>> do believe that such people exist in our movement (I know a few), and
>>>>>
>>>> that
>>>
>>>> they have a very high capacity for listening, but they themselves are
>>>>>
>>>> not
>>>
>>>> being heard, and that is extremely unfair, and it is something I would
>>>>>
>>>> like
>>>
>>>> to correct because me and the movement would benefit greatly. And as you
>>>>> said money is necessary, so it has to be paid.
>>>>>
>>>>> @SJ: as you can see from my email, there are deeper issues than just
>>>>> the
>>>>> blog.
>>>>>
>>>>> @Pine: Thank you for our conversation this morning. I learnt a lot
from
>>>>> hearing your perspective, and I felt heard by you because you gave
me
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>
>>>> opportunity to voice my concerns, and you asked me questions about them.
>>>>>
>>>>> @Frederick: Yes, money is an issue that has to be discussed with the
>>>>> community broadly. I think it might be too much to elaborate about
it
>>>>>
>>>> now
>>>
>>>> on this conversation, but it can be the topic for another thread.
>>>>> About volunteer burnout, I feel many of us feel underappreciated
>>>>> because
>>>>> there is no space in our projects for appreciation. For now the only
>>>>> proposal I had in mind is about creating pages on Meta for
volunteers,
>>>>>
>>>> so
>>>
>>>> the work of individuals can be seen completely. Perhaps it needs more
>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Micru
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>>>
>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>
>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>
>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian