Thanks,
I have no opinion on this one.
Cheers,
P
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard
Meijssen
Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2016 12:49 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to disseminate free knowledge? Was: Profile of Magnus
Manske
Hoi,
Thanks,
GerardM
On 19 January 2016 at 10:35, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net>
wrote:
Which William Anthony?
There is an article on Wikipedia about one of them.
P
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2016 10:39 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to disseminate free knowledge? Was:
Profile of Magnus Manske
Hoi,
You do not offend but worse you do not convince because your arguments
fail. What we have always done is "share in the sum of all knowledge"
and to you that is wrong. You use gobbledygook like "techbubble" and
your vision is one of community. Fine. You do not define community in
any other way and leave me with a sense of "so?".
Wikipedia is our flagship. But Wikimedia is a fleet. With only a
flagship we are a one-trick-pony and we are about more than
encyclopaedic trivia about whatever there is to know about Elvis
Presley. To me it is telling that there is no article about William
Anthony. You will find him now in Wikidata and if you care to know why
Mr Anthony is notable you may google him.
Our fleet consists of types of vessels that each have their own
purpose in our plight to bring the sum of all knowledge to the world.
When Wikipedia is all we do, we do a miserable job. A miserable job
because we do not even share in the sum of knowledge available to us.
If reach is what our concern is, we should consider how to increase
our reach and place the ships in the most advantageous position in
order to provide more information so that people can gain the
knowledge by integrating what they know with what we offer.
So far we do a piss poor job at marketing our knowledge and it is
because we are not concerned with sharing in the sum of all knowledge,
most of us are only concerned with Wikipedia and that is a castle and
the trade routes are moving elsewhere.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 18 January 2016 at 22:37, Jens Best <best.jens(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Magnus,
thanks for bringing yourself into the discussion.
I agree on several aspects you point out in the first half of your
mail about improvements, expectations and "prominent subgroups".
When it comes to re-emphasize this "castle"-narrative, I had the
feeling you wanna connect reasonable ideas of other ways into the
future with all the nay-sayers you described so detailed before.
Same goes for the "Wikidata is killing Wikipedia"-statement. Nobody
in this mailinglist-thread used this word "killing" or similiarly hard
analogies.
So, what's again is the mission? You say: Dissemination of free
knowledge.
Well, who would disagree on that. Nobody. But
wait, isn't the whole
strategic debate about *HOW *to disseminate free knowledge? And
assuming that a simple "the more third parties use the Wikiprojects
knowledge the more we fulfill our mission"-answer is…wrong.
Even if 400 million of the 500 million (or so) readers would visit
the Wikipedia just to look up the birthday of Elvis Presley, it is
*the *characteristic feature of an encylopedia in general and
Wikipedia in special that you can discover more knowledge about
Elvis even without asking or even knowing that you wanna know more about Elvis.
Knowledge unequals information. Knowledge is information plus
culture, plus personal interests, plus serendipity. That's why the
same article has different arrangements in different languages.
That's why it is not only about the facts, but also about the
overview of the possible classifications around the facts a good article is presenting.
Knowledge is about discovering and not about checking some facts
with a Q&A-mobile app. So the question is surely not about should we
disseminate free knowledge, but how can this be done with a spirit
that comes from the idea of an encyclopedia. Information is in the
machine. Knowledge is in the people. Without the (editing,
programming, linking) people as an integral part of the
"dissemination procedure" the mission isn't the mission of Wikipedia.
This idea might be not that fashionably going together with the
recent trends in web tech business developments, but it is surely
not "conservative" or castle-wall-building as some people try to frame it.
It is also not easy. It is even more complicate than good writing
good code, because it is about involving more people in this not so
trendy, not so quick'n'dirty, not so infotainmental, mobile
app-stylish way of "knowledge dissemination".
So the debate is not about castle-building, but about how we
together re-shaping the ship called Wiki(pedia) to sail a daily
demanding longterm mission and not following every techbubble-trends
just because "more is better".
I hope that the upcoming strategic debate is as open as it needs to
be. A strategic debate which framework is already decided upon would
only increase the distance created also by recent events.
I hope this clarifies my POV, and doesn't offend too many people ;-)
Best regards,
Jens Best
2016-01-18 21:33 GMT+01:00 Magnus Manske <magnusmanske(a)googlemail.com>om>:
OK, long thread, I'll try to answer in one
here...
* I've been writing code for over thirty years now, so I'm the
first to
say
that technology in not "the" answer to
social or structural issues.
It
can,
however, mitigate some of those issues, or at
least show new ways
of dealing with them
* New things are not necessarily good just because they are new.
What
seems
to be an improvement, especially for a technical
mind, can be a
huge step backwards for the "general population". On the other
hand, projects like the Visual Editor can make work easier for
many people, but few of them will realize what a daunting
undertaking such a project is. The
complexity
of getting this right is staggering. Expectations
of getting it
all perfect, all feature-complete, on the initial release, are
unrealistic to say the least. And many of the details can not be
tested between a few developers; things need to be tested under
real-world conditions, and testing means they can break. Feedback
about problems with a software release are actually quite welcome,
but condemning an entire product forever because the first version
didn't do everything 100% right is just plain stupid. If Wikipedia
had been judged by such standards in 2001,
there
would be no Wikipedia today, period. Technology
improves all the
time, be it Visual Editor, Media Viewer, or Wikidata; but in the
community, there
is
a sense of "it was bad, it must be still
bad", and I have a
feeling that this is extended to new projects by default these days.
* In summary, what I criticize is that few people ask "how can we
make
this
better"; all they ask is "how can we
get rid of it". This attitude
prevents
the development of just about any new approach.
If the result of a
long, thorough analysis is "it's bad, and it can't possibly be
made better", /then/ is the time to scrap it, but no sooner.
* Of course, "the community" is an ill-defined construct to begin with.
When I use that phrase above, I do mean a small but prominent
subgroup in that demographic, mostly "old hands" of good editors,
often with a "fan club" of people repeating the opinions of the
former on talk pages,
without
really investigating on their own. After all,
they are good
editors, so they must know what they are talking about, right?
* As I tried to say in the interview, I do understand such a
conservative approach all to well. We worked hard for Wikipedia to
get where it is
now,
and with trolls, on the left, vandals on the
right, and half-done
tech experiments in front, retreating into the safety of the
castle seems
like a
> good choice. And sometimes it is. But while we can defend the
> castle comfortably for some years to come, we will never grow
> beyond its
walls.
I
> think we are already seeing the first fallout from this
> stagnation, in terms of dropping page views (not to mention
> editors). If people stop coming to a Wikipedia with 5 million
> articles, 10 million articles would not make much difference by
> themselves; more content is good, but it will not turn this
> supertanker around on its own. We do have some time left to change
> things, without undue haste, but we
won't have forever.
* Just to make sure, I am NOT saying to throw away all the things
that
have
> proven to work for us; I'm just saying we shouldn't restrict us to
them.
* As for this "Wikidata is killing Wikipedia" sentiment - bullshit.
(I would like to be more eloquent here, but for once, this is the
perfect
word.) Wikipedia and Wikidata are two very different beasts,
though they
do
have an overlap. And that overlap should be used
on Wikipedia,
where it
can
> help, even in the gigantic English Wikipedia, which covers but a
> third of Wikidata items. Transcluded data in infoboxes;
> automatically generated lists; a data source for timelines. Those
> are functions that will improve Wikipedia, and will help
> especially the hundreds of smaller language editions that are just
> getting towards critical mass. And there, automatically generated
> descriptions can help get to that mass, until someone writes an
> actual
article in that language.
* So Google is using Wikidata in their search results? Good! In
case you have forgotten, our mission is not to have a nice article
about your pet topic, or have humans write articles that are
little better than bot-generated stubs, or have your name in ten
thousand article histories; the mission is the dissemination of
free knowledge. And the more third parties use the knowledge we
assemble, even (or
especially!) if it is
that
> other 800 pound gorilla on the web, the better we fulfil that mission.
>
> I hope this clarifies my POV, and doesn't offend too many people
> ;-)
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:10 PM Andrew Lih <andrew.lih(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > I cannot speak for Magnus, but there’s a distinction that needs
> > to be
> made:
> >
> > Writing, “… all have been resisted by vocal groups of editors,
> > not
> because
> > they are a problem, but because they represent change” is not
> > maligning
> all
> > editors who complain.
> >
> > It simply says that those who resist innovation because it is a
> > change
> from
> > the status quo, and without solid reasoning, should reconsider.
> > The detailed analysis of Jonathan Cardy and Risker criticizing
> > VE’s
> suboptimal
> > 2013 launch are well-informed and legit. But many,
> > unfortunately, don’t apply such high standards for analysis.
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > After the assertion "From the Media Viewer, the Visual Editor,
> > to
> Wikidata
> > transclusion, all have been resisted by vocal groups of
> > editors, not because they are a problem, but because they
> > represent change," I
would
> > suggest a very large "citation
needed" tag.
> >
> > Pine
> > _______________________________________________
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> ibe>
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