Re: [Foundation-l] Cultural awareness and sensitivity

Hello Delphine, Talking about 'cultural awareness and sensitivity' would you let me propose some minor case study? It was very strange for me to read that Yaroslav (while I know only one Yaroslav here on the list - it's Yaroslav Blanter) was... OMG... "unecessarily aggressive". Moreover I was 'actually shocked' as to my experience Yaroslav is not too kind or better to say warm in tone sometimes (!), but I never saw him "unecessarily aggressive". So I spent some slice of night (it's 3:30AM here in Kyiv now) to run some investigation. As to the best of my understanding (and if I'm not mistaken) that was another person (should I point exactly?) which has not much in common with Yaroslav: he is from Russia as well and he is admin in ru:WP also. It was that another person who spoked about "lynching", 0.55% and was... yes, "unecessarily aggressive" toward Michael, while I was unable to discover Yaroslav' participation in that thread. While I'm not from Russia (perhaps because of that my perception of word "lynching" is almost exactly as Michael's), I could treat this small ...incident in several different ways and most of them will not make me happy, some could make me angry. Obviously my main explanation that it was just mistake :) 'cause 'somebody' was too much in hurry and didn't check the name. Sincerely, Pavlo Shevelo 2010/6/8 Delphine Ménard <notafishz(a)gmail.com>om>: > On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote: >> Dear Michael, >> >> on one side, thank you for bringing this up - I had for example no idea of >> this interpretation, and couldn't even have imagined it probably. >> >> On a more general note, how do you think this problem could be approached? I >> assume that you can understand that someone uses a word in a different >> meaning than the one you brought up, and this is something that is happening >> all the time of course - I have experienced it several times. Translating or >> writing in a non-native language can be a tricky thing (For example, calling >> someone "black" would be considered highly offensive in the Netherlands, >> where negroid is apparently offensive in the US), but even within one >> language there can be different interpretations. Do you see a way that >> people can consider this? Do you see here a task for the writer, or rather a >> message for the reader of messages that there might be another meaning in it >> than the offensive one you might read at first? > > [snip] > >> So although I do agree that we should be careful with cultural differences, >> I do not think that we can avoid possible "lynching"-issues (as in, how the >> word is used) because we can't expect everybody to be have a major in >> English. I think it is rather likely that these offenses are actually more >> often the other way around, where non-natives consider something as >> offensive, but will not speak up about it. Not so much because Americans or >> Brits are so harsh (well, some are) but because of the numbers - there are >> numerous more cultures compared to the few that have English as a native >> tongue. > > > Hmmm. On the specific "lynching issue", I have to say that I must > disagree with you.  I believe it *could* have been avoided. There are > times when "going public" (ie. answer on the list) about things that > shocked, bothered, or angered us is possibly the least effective way > of "communicating". > > To give a personal "assesment" of the lynching issue, I understood > Mariano's first post as sarcasm, and it did not shock me much > (Spanish, French, maybe close enough in the first place?). I came to > realize with Michael's post that this might be a poor choice of words, > but did not really understand what I perceived as a really strong > > But then, this is me. A woman, French, living in a country that does > not speak my mother tongue, reading in yet another language not my > own, with my background (cultural, social, educational etc.). In the > end, the above considerations are a result of all that. And my take on > this is that everyone actually reads this list, a discussion page, an > email, whatever, with their own background, their own consideration. > Which is fine. > > But which I believe isn't fine any more when things are erected in > semi-accusatory statements about one's culture, understanding (or lack > thereof), origin or such. > > I believe that such things should be first cleared in private. Not so > much to keep them out of the "public zone" as in "you can't talk to > people in public", but rather as a sign that we are probably all > fallible and would rather double check with the person involved what > their intent really was before we actually > > As such, while I fully support Michael's concern that cultural > awareness (or lackthereof) is one of the critical problems Wikimedia > projects are facing, and that it should definitely be addressed, I > found the transition from usability to cultural awareness via lynching > somewhat strange. But ok, why not. > > The problem I see here, is that Mariano's reaction, while probably > understandable, failed, in my opinion, to tackle the real problem > Michael was (at least the way I understood it) trying to point out ie. > "we at Wikimedia often lack cultural awareness skills and that is > maybe why we're having this whole long, at times aggressive discussion > about interlanguage links". and we started getting personal. And > Lodewijk, in pure Lodewijk fashion, tried to cut short the personal > things, thank you Lodewijk :). > > So here are tricks I learned a long long time ago, which I believe > might apply here. > > In a conversation, there are four steps: "What I think, what I say, > what the other hears, what the other understands". And between what I > think, and what the other understands, there are usually many worlds. > > So what derives from this is that as a listener, before I react to > something that shocked me with strong words, I try to make sure that > what I understood and what was meant are the same thing. > As a speaker, being criticized for whatever I've said, I avoid going > "gosh, you really don't understand anything" but rather go for the > "hmmm, maybe I expressed myself wrongly in the first place" approach, > and reformulate. Reformulate is the answer, especially in public > forums, to avoid going all flame and personal. > > It is a hard thing to keep in mind at all times, I find, but I've also > found it makes communication much easier, when applied. > > All of this rambling really to say that while cultural awareness is a > very important thing, it rarely helps if basic communication skills > are not taken into consideration. Reformulating and making sure we've > understood is one of them. And it is, in my opinion, even more > exacerbated in a diverse cultural background, and when the common > language is not everyone's mother tongue. > > > Delphine > > > -- > ~notafish > > NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will > get lost. > Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >