Andreas and Ramzy,

Thank you for sharing these perspectives.

I have a view that doesn't quite align with either of yours, and I am interested in what you think.

It seems to me that leadership is a quality that has always been important, if poorly defined, in the Wikipedia project. New users often need guidance in understanding Wikipedia's standards and how they apply, and subject matter experts often bring knowledge that helps guide those less familiar with a topic.

But I am entirely unconvinced that there is a worthwhile role for the Wikimedia Foundation to play in identifying or engaging with leaders. Leadership is a phenomenon that can occur without central guidance, and can often be invisible to those who are not directly involved.

Even if we concede that leadership is a valuable phenomenon, what is the purpose of trying to centralize leadership that occurs within the platform the WMF is tasked with sustaining, and of investing donors' dollars into that effort? What is the basis for believing that leadership will not occur if the Wikimedia Foundation does not guide how it happens?

-Pete
--
Pete Forsyth
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 10:07 AM Andreas Kolbe <jayen466@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Ramzy,

I wanted to acknowledge your eloquent post (for anyone who hasn't read it, please do – DeepL and Google Translation do a really decent job), and in particular your concern about the lack of representation of South East Asian communities in movement governance.

But I would also like to share one thought about the importance of leadership: it's that I think Wikimedians are not particularly keen on having leaders to follow. Projects like Wikipedia, Wiktionary and so on grew precisely because there was no leadership. They provided a space free of pre-imposed leadership. 

This is what attracted people: you could do something, contribute something, without having to ask an authority figure for permission. People were trusted, not led.

This being so, I believe leadership is of limited value in terms of growing participation in line with this volunteer model.

Kind regards,
Andreas

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 12:27 PM Ramzy Muliawan <muhammadaramzy@gmail.com> wrote:
Pertama-tama saya ingin mengucapkan terima kasih yang setinggi-tingginya kepada Kelompok Kerja Pembinaan Kepemimpinan yang telah menghasilkan definisi ini. Saya pikir ini satu langkah maju yang diperlukan untuk mendorong implementasi rekomendasi Strategi Gerakan mengenai penanaman modal dalam pembinaan keterampilan dan kepemimpinan.

Berkebalikan dengan respon-respon negatif yang diterima oleh prakarsa ini, saya rasa mendefinisikan bentuk kepemimpinan yang diperlukan oleh gerakan Wikimedia secara luas adalah sesuatu yang sudah semestinya kita miliki, sebagai sebuah gerakan antarabangsa yang memiliki jaringan dan struktur tata kelola yang rumit, saling terkait, dan mengandalkan waktu para sukarelawan yang berharga. 

Diskusi mengenai pembinaan kepemimpinan terutama sekali bersifat mendesak untuk wilayah gerakan Wikimedia yang tidak pernah, atau kurang sekali, terwakili dalam tata kelola gerakan secara global. Saya berbicara tentang wilayah asal saya, rantau Asia Tenggara dan Pasifik, yang memiliki tingkat keberagaman proyek Wikimedia yang sangat tinggi, barangkali hanya dapat disaingi oleh beberapa wilayah lain dalam gerakan; organisasi-organisasi mitra lokal yang aktif; dan basis penyunting maupun pasar pembaca yang terus berkembang seiring dengan penetrasi Internet yang semakin mendalam. Meski wilayah ini memiliki status-status sedemikian, Wikimediawan/wati dari rantau Asia Tenggara tidak pernah ada yang berhasil duduk di Dewan Pengawas Yayasan Wikimedia, dan keterwakilan dari rantau ini sangat terbatas pada badan-badan tata kelola gerakan seperti Komite Afiliasi, Komite Bahasa, bahkan badan yang saat ini bertugas untuk merumuskan piagam gerakan. Hal ini tentu saja tidak dapat dijelaskan secara tunggal melalui "kecelakaan sejarah", tetapi akan jauh lebih mudah untuk melihatnya dari lensa kurangnya penanaman modal dan komitmen jangka panjang untuk urusan kepemimpinan ini. 

Kerja-kerja ini tidak akan selesai dalam waktu dekat, dan tidak akan menghasilkan suatu hasil akhir yang dapat memuaskan seluruh pihak yang memiliki kepentingan dalam gerakan Wikimedia. Namun, apa yang dapat kita lakukan tentu saja adalah mencoba terlebih dahulu. Masalah-masalah seperti yang saya sebutkan di atas, dalam konteks rantau asal saya namun juga saya tahu terjadi pada beberapa wilayah lain, tidak akan selesai dengan saling menuding dan mempermasalahkan apakah kerja-kerja ini perlu dilakukan atau tidak. 

Saya mengajak para Wikimediawan/wati yang memiliki perhatian khusus pada hal ini untuk turut serta membantu Kelompok Kerja dalam diskusi yang penting ini. 

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 14:29 Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:

I, too, would appreciate such enlightenment, Cheers, Peter

 

From: Andreas Kolbe [mailto:jayen466@gmail.com]
Sent: 16 September 2022 20:48
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is ready for community feedback!

 

Dear Ivan,

 

I am very sorry, but I honestly don't understand what any of this is for, and why the WMF is spending money on defining leadership – money collected under the pretence that money is urgently needed to keep Wikipedia online – given that community feedback to this initiative to date seems to be largely negative.

 

 

It is not like the world lacks definitions of leadership. Aren't we spending donors' money to reinvent the wheel here?

 

Could I refer back to an interesting thread Samuel Klein started a while back, titled "Simplifying governance processes"? 

 

 

To me, at least, what Samuel and others said in that thread seemed to be pertinent to initiatives like this one. Samuel started by saying, 

 

"Dear Board (and all), The growing complexity of governance efforts is defeating us. Process creep is an existential threat for projects like ours – it is self-perpetuating if not actively curtailed, as it filters out people who dislike excess process. There's a reason 'bureaucrats' and 'stewards' have unglamorous titles. Global governance in particular seems to be suffering from this now. Let's try to scale it back!"

 

He received no reply from the WMF, at least not here on this list where he posted. 

 

It seems to me we are spending a great deal of money to produce words – but not words in Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikisource etc., that the public enjoys and finds valuable, but words on Meta talking about ourselves in the best navel-gazing tradition.

 

Now, maybe I have this all back to front and am simply clueless ... so if someone feels like enlightening me, please do!

 

Best,

Andreas 

 

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 4:33 PM Ivan Martínez <galaver@gmail.com> wrote:

TL;DR: The draft leadership definition[1] prepared by the Leadership Development Working Group is ready for community feedback! Please share your feedback on Meta[2], the feedback form[3] or the Movement Strategy Forum[4]. You can also directly mail us at  leadershipworkinggroup@wikimedia.org. The feedback will be collected till October 6, 2022.  

 

Hello everyone!

 

I hope you are aware that the Leadership Development Working Group[5] has been working over the past few months to formulate and find ways to nurture the leadership of our movement. The Leadership Development Working Group (LDWG) is a group of Wikimedia volunteers representing different communities, languages, roles, and experiences. We are pleased to inform the community that our draft definition of leadership is now available for community feedback. This first draft definition of leadership was written after months of discussion, learning, and sharing from our community perspective. The Wikimedia Movement, which is by nature diverse and distinctive in its own way, is expressly addressed by this definition.

 

Please consider going through the definition and letting us know what you think by October 6, 2022. The draft definition includes a general definition of leadership and subcategories that elaborate on the actions, qualities, and outcomes of good leadership. 

 

There are many places where you can express your ideas, suggestions, and comments, such as the meta talk page[2], the feedback form[3], and Movement Strategy Forum Post[4]. You can also directly mail us at leadershipworkinggroup@wikimedia.org. 

 

You can check if the general definition, and the subcategories align with your idea of leadership in the movement. You can also try finding the gaps, maybe some qualities of a leader or anything else are missing in the draft definition or you can check if the definition applies to all cultural, linguistic, community or other contexts of the movement and share your thoughts with us.

 

Together, let's celebrate the movement's diverse and distinctive leadership! 

 

Cheers!

 

[1] Link to the draft definition on meta 

[2] Link to meta talk page 

[3] Link to the feedback form

[4] Link to the Movement Strategy Forum post 

[5] Link to the meta page of LDWG

 

--

Iván Martínez
Voluntario - Wikimedia México A.C.
User:ProtoplasmaKid

// Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
// Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora: https://donate.wikimedia.org

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