Hi yana,
You are right, there is no hostility in my message. You know that
wikimedians are very sensitive to follow existing law (especially
copyright), and to provide and ask references all the time :)
@labs
Could you please provide a reference why labs can be misused?
@understanding wikimedians needs
Would you mind providing a reference for your wikipedia contributions?
@negotiating future wp zero deals
What is the basic problem that you are not able to negotiate a "first 300
mb free for wikimedians", unrestricted to contents ?
Rupert
Am 01.06.2014 22:06 schrieb "Yana Welinder" <ywelinder(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:
Gerard: Labs is not currently considered for
zero-rating because it can be
misused. But it may be added over time if we figure out how to work around
that and there is demand for it.
Rupert: Your comment seems unnecessarily hostile to me, but I'm going to
try to assume good faith. I have of course edited Wikipedia articles in my
spare time, though I may not do it as much given that I spend most of my
time defending the projects legally and creating a safer environment for
other editors.
To address your substantive point: that people need full Internet access to
do research for Wikipedia articles. I do think there are ways the community
could work with editors that have limited access to the Internet rather
than dismissing them outright. The fact that people can't afford to pay for
full Internet access should not exclude them from contributing to the
projects.
Best,
Yana
--
Yana Welinder
Legal Counsel
Wikimedia Foundation
415.839.6885 ext. 6867
@yanatweets <https://twitter.com/yanatweets>
NOTICE: As an attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation, for legal/ethical
reasons I cannot give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer for, community
members, volunteers, or staff members in their personal capacity. For more
on what this means, please see our legal disclaimer
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Legal_Disclaimer>.
On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 8:45 AM, rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Yana, may i suggest that you try at least one
time in your life edit a
wikipedia article so you experience how much bandwith is consumed to do a
proper research of verifyable sources? Or just read an article and try to
verify the contents? Yana, there is only one type of internet, please
leave
it up to the reader what is good and what is bad,
and please let the
wikipedia zero contracts reflect this.
Rupert
Am 01.06.2014 09:57 schrieb "Yana Welinder" <ywelinder(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:
> As the Quartz article from Jens's email discusses, the decision in
Chile
is
> very unfortunate.[1] It's an example of when net neutrality — which is
an
important
principle for the free and open internet — is poorly
implemented
to prevent free dissemination of knowledge.
Although Wikipedia Zero is
not
yet available in Chile, it is a country of
interest for the program, so
we
> are thinking about what options are available in light of this
decision.
>
> That said, I would like to clarify a couple of points about the
> implementation of Wikipedia Zero that were raised in this thread:
>
> 1. The newer Wikipedia Zero partnerships have provided the full
Wikipedia
sites
(m.wikipedia) free of data charges for some time now and we are
phasing out the reduced version (zero.wikipedia) from the older
partnerships.
2. While earlier Wikipedia Zero partnerships only zero-rated Wikipedia,
we
> are working on getting carriers to zero-rate all the Wikimedia
projects.
>
> 3. We are also working on getting editing functions zero-rated, though
> there are some technical hurdles for that right now. But, eventually,
> Wikipedia Zero will not only make knowledge more accessible, but also
> empower more people in the Global South to contribute to the projects.
>
> 4. Finally, WMF does *not* pay carriers to zero-rate Wikipedia under
> Wikipedia Zero. Carriers zero-rate the sites because they want to make
a
commitment to access to knowledge as a corporate social
responsibility.[2]
> I believe this question has already been answered in this thread since
> Scott raised it earlier, but I just wanted to confirm that Wikipedia
Zero
does not
involve payments.
Hope this is helpful!
Best,
Yana
[1]
http://qz.com/215064/when-net-neutrality-backfires-chile-just-killed-free-a…
[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_social_responsibility
--
Yana Welinder
Legal Counsel
Wikimedia Foundation
415.839.6885 ext. 6867
@yanatweets <https://twitter.com/yanatweets>
NOTICE: As an attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation, for legal/ethical
reasons I cannot give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer for,
community
members, volunteers, or staff members in their
personal capacity. For
more
on what this means, please see our legal
disclaimer
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Legal_Disclaimer>.
On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 5:52 AM, Jens Best <jens.best(a)wikimedia.de>
wrote:
> News from Chile
>
> Chile’s Subsecretaria de Telecomunicaciones just decided that
zero-rating
> is a promotion tool which is against net
neutrality. Therefore all
> zero-rated-related marketing deals have to stop at the 1st of June.
> According to a WMF-list in Chile no provider has been offering
Wikipedia
> > Zero. Also I'm not sure if this dismissal reflects only on zero-rated
> > offers where payment of money is done by the content provider. So it
> still
> > needs to be checked how/if this decision is influencing our intent to
> > spread Wikipedia Zero.
> >
> > All in all it shows that we have to improve our arguments in a
broader
>
scale if we don't want to get caught by promoting Free Knowledge" but
in
> fact 'only' pushing the use of a
reduced version of one (very well
known
> > and superb) website which stand exemplary for this idea. We are
caught
in a
> dilemma which imho only can be solved when reaching out to more
partners
which
stand for Free Knowledge and Free Education. Not sure how this
could
work, but fortunately that never was a reason to
stop.
News from Chile:
http://qz.com/215064/when-net-neutrality-backfires-chile-just-killed-free-a…
http://www.subtel.gob.cl/noticias/138-neutralidad-red/5311-ley-de-neutralid…
> >
> > Overview Wikipedia Zero:
> >
> >
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Mobile_partnerships
> >
> >
> >
> > 2014-05-30 6:59 GMT+02:00 rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner(a)gmail.com>om>:
> >
> > > participation is another aspect. wp zero allows free reading. it
does
> > > not allow free participation.
write emails, search for references,
> > > download and adjust code. just as a side note, the oxford
university
> > > stated: until 2012, europe, i.e.
10% of the worlds population,
> > > produced 50%+ of wikipedias geotagged contents [1].
> > >
> > > imo it is not necessary to terminate wikipedia zero, it "just"
needs
> > > to be negotiated differently: if a
telco wants to support our case,
> > > give every person 200mb free internet access. unrestricted. or, if
we
> > > need to break some law like now or
be in the grey area, we could
> > > support additionally a viral model, like: if somebody is a
wikipedia
> > > contributor (as defined in
election criteria, or like in ghana, 3
> > > edits per week), give them 2 GB free internet traffic for free,
> > > unrestricted.
> > >
> > > if the WMF legal department would be able to negotiate _this_ e.g.
in
> >
nigeria or india, i would have _big_ respect for them, and with
> > pleasure say in future: you guys are worth every cent of the 5
million
> we
pay you a year.
>
> [1]
>
http://geography.oii.ox.ac.uk/?page=the-geographically-uneven-coverage-of-w…
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Jens Best <
jens.best(a)wikimedia.de>
> >
wrote:
> > > "Giving access to educational resources" isn't the same
statement
as
> > > "zero-rating wikipedia"
- If the mobile providers are willing to
give
> > more
> > > open educational ressources (incl. video) a zero-rated access to
the
> > people
> > > THEN you can say "giving access to educational ressources for
free" -
> > right
> > > now it 'only' means "giving free access to wikipedia"
(which is
great
> and
> > > awesome for the wikipedia and the people).
> > >
> > > Let's not be naive on the point that mobile providers have
different
> > > motivations for zero-rating
services as the movement has for
fighting
> > for
> > > > free knowledge around the globe.
> > > >
> > > > In the beginning it was mainly zero.wikipedia (text-only), now
more
and
> > more providers giving access to
m.wikipedia (some-pictures), but
where
> > are
> > > their restrictions and what will these restrictions mean for
further
> > > > development on free knowledge and free education? - And above
that
what
> > > will be our argument when other free knowledge/free education
> > organisations
> > > don't get zero-rated? When it becomes clear that the marketing
scoop
> of
> > > > giving "free wikipedia" wasn't at all meant as the
start of
giving
free
> > > access to free knowledge around the world?
> > >
> > > I'm all in to make all open knowledge and all open educational
> ressources
> > > zero-rated available around the globe - but I'm also quite sure
that
> this
> > > is not the deal the mobile providers are looking forward to. I
prefer
> > to
> > > > stay critical and not giving up an important principle like net
> > > neutrality
> > > > just because some mobile providers made a nice marketing deal
with
us
> > > which
> > > > seemed to serve our own goals in short-term, but isn't reflected
> enough
> > > on
> > > > its deeper implications on a free web and its liberated use.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > best regards
> > > >
> > > > Jens Best
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2014-05-29 23:31 GMT+02:00 Marc A. Pelletier
<marc(a)uberbox.org>rg>:
> > > >
> > > >> On 05/29/2014 05:24 PM, Jens Best wrote:
> > > >> > A noble cause
> > > >> > doesn't necessarily make breaking an important
principle
> > > unproblematic.
> > > >>
> > > >> In my opinion, if the definition of the principle makes the
> obviously
> > > >> perverse conclusion that a beneficial thing like giving access
to
> >
>> educational resources for free to the world's least economically
> > >> fortunate people "a bad thing", then the definition is
obviously
> broken.
> > >>
> > >> > It could be the time to start talking
> > >> > globally about an in-the-future exit strategy on the surely
noble
>
>> > initiative e.g. when certain milestones are reached in
participating
> > >> > countries/regions.
> > >>
> > >> So you're telling me that there is a point where we can say
"Oh,
you
>
>> can't afford access? Too bad." and it's not a bad thing because
some
> > >> /other/ metric has been reached?
> > >>
> > >> -- Marc
> > > --
> > > Jens Best
> > > Präsidium
> > > Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> > > web:
http://www.wikimedia.de
> > > mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de
> >
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> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Jens Best
> > Präsidium
> > Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> > web:
http://www.wikimedia.de
> > mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de
> >
> > Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
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