Hello,

I don't believe I stated it had a remit under the law - indeed, I'm pretty confident I did not. 

Almost none of our bodies have legal personae, so that would have been an odd thing for me to say, so I'm somewhat confused on why you indicate I did. 

But we are a project that is built on our internally agreed responsibilities and relations - which includes our remits (the BOT, to the degree that even it has a legal remit, is fairly narrow). As an example, the UCOC drafting committee has a very clear remit, but not one that's enshrined in law. 

p.s. Mea culpa on forgetting to change the title - didn't want to change this one now as I don't know if that would split the thread. Happy for someone to change to an appropriate title. 

Richard (Nosebagbear)

Unless otherwise stated within this email, any Movement Charter viewpoints expressed represent my own position(s), and not the aggregate judgement of the MCDC. 


On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 11:57, <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 348, Issue 3 (Gerard Meijssen)


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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 12:56:51 +0100
From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 348, Issue 3
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
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Hoi,
Why is it that you consider the "community" a single body that has a remit
under the law for anything? It is not and it has not.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 11:40, Nosebagbear <nosebagbear@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Patrick,
>
> Firstly, you (and in this case, I mean, "I notified members of T&S policy,
> directly, in discussions where they were involved, as did others" all the
> way back in phase 1) were made aware of the community need for ratification
> far before the ArbCom letter.
>
> Which of these is the case: that the WMF only notified the Board of a need
> for actual community ratification when the Arbcom open letter was made, or
> that the Board declined to consider it as a need prior to that point?
>
> Secondly, why does the Board feel that they should be "consider[ing] the
> input received so far on what would make a fair and practical process." -
> there are only two bodies with a reasonable remit to be specifying the
> nature of any ratification method. In the weaker position is the UCOC
> drafting committee, and in the first place, the Community as a whole,
> probably by a meta-RfC. Please provide the reasoning for this process.
>
> *Richard (Nosebagbear)*
>
> Unless otherwise stated within this email, any Movement Charter viewpoints
> expressed represent my own position(s), and *not* the aggregate judgement
> of the MCDC.
>
>
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 at 21:13, <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
>>         wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, please visit
>>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimedia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         wikimedia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: [Marketing Mail] Re: Closing the comment period for the
>> Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Draft Guidelines and next step
>>       (Andreas Kolbe)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 21:12:54 +0000
>> From: Andreas Kolbe <jayen466@gmail.com>
>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Marketing Mail] Re: Closing the comment
>>         period for the Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Draft
>> Guidelines
>>         and next step
>> To: Patrick Earley <pearley@wikimedia.org>
>> Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Message-ID:
>>         <
>> CAHRTtW9h69ewsO1V3M6HzGn4EmUGLb0GvX9bKD+Q0Hi6T_F8jg@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>         boundary="00000000000055427605d280b9bb"
>>
>> Hi Patrick,
>>
>> Thank you for your clarification. So if I understand correctly, there will
>> be no UCoC policy text review before sometime in 2023.
>>
>> As this is quite a long time away, would it be possible to provide some
>> answers to the questions I asked earlier?
>>
>>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/H4FGTRCTKKCLJXFQVWFOCHMZCOFE2KBM/
>>
>> For example: According to the Universal Code of Conduct, are
>> Wikipedians/Wikimedians allowed –
>>
>> – To blog about what happens on Wikipedia?
>>
>> – To discuss edits traceable to, say, the Russian or US government on- and
>> off-wiki, without the permission of the people making these edits?
>>
>> – To discuss cases of individuals engaging in revenge editing or
>> subverting
>> Wikipedia for commercial or criminal ends (recall the recent Christian
>> Rosa
>> case), or to help the press with related enquiries (recall e.g.
>>
>> https://www.dailydot.com/irl/wikipedia-sockpuppet-investigation-largest-network-history-wiki-pr/
>> and the input made by User:Doctree to that article)?
>>
>> – To notify the authorities when they believe a crime has been committed
>> or
>> is about to be committed?
>>
>> Or should all of these actions categorically be considered harassment of
>> fellow contributors, and the contributors engaging in these actions be
>> subject to blocks and bans?
>>
>> I think it is important for people to understand the Code's intent
>> correctly.
>>
>> Best,
>> Andreas
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 6:42 PM Patrick Earley <pearley@wikimedia.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Andreas,
>> >
>> > The review of the policy text is planned one year after the close and
>> the
>> > ratification of the enforcement outlines, which are still being revised
>> by
>> > the Drafting Committee.  Detailed information of the policy text review
>> > will be communicated soon, as the revised guidelines are published for
>> > comment and ratification.  The review will likely follow established
>> policy
>> > update formats, such as those used for the Terms of Use. [1]
>> >
>> > Patrick
>> >
>> > [1]
>> >
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use/Paid_contributions_amendment
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 11:10 AM Andreas Kolbe <jayen466@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Patrick,
>> >>
>> >> Thanks. You say,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *The policy was ratified by the Board last February.[1] That said, a
>> >> policy must be adapted over time as it is put into practice and
>> >> complications arise.  The main text of the UCoC must be adaptable, and
>> >> there will be a full review and update of the text one year after the
>> close
>> >> and ratification of the current phase, which is looking at enforcement
>> >> pathways.[2] We fully expect refinements at that time.*
>> >>
>> >> If the policy was ratified last February, and "there will be a full
>> >> review and update of the text one year after the close and
>> ratification",
>> >> does that mean there will be some sort of review of the policy text in
>> >> February 2022?
>> >>
>> >> Or did you mean something else? And where will that review take place?
>> >>
>> >> Thanking you in advance for your clarification.
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >> Andreas
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 6:05 PM Patrick Earley <pearley@wikimedia.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hello, all.
>> >>>
>> >>> In reply to these questions and a few received via direct email:
>> >>>
>> >>> Questions about the content of the Universal Code of Conduct policy
>> >>> itself are very legitimate, but unrelated to the current process under
>> >>> review with the Board. The policy was ratified by the Board last
>> >>> February.[1] That said, a policy must be adapted over time as it is
>> put
>> >>> into practice and complications arise.  The main text of the UCoC
>> must be
>> >>> adaptable, and there will be a full review and update of the text one
>> year
>> >>> after the close and ratification of the current phase, which is
>> looking at
>> >>> enforcement pathways.[2] We fully expect refinements at that time.
>> Figuring
>> >>> out how to manage some areas of policy is challenging. Doxxing is a
>> very
>> >>> difficult area to form policy around, and I know the Drafting
>> Committee
>> >>> from Phase 1 worked hard to reflect best practices around the
>> movement in
>> >>> this area.
>> >>>
>> >>> To clarify, Nosebagbear: Youngjin was reminding folks to get their
>> last
>> >>> thoughts in for the current work the Drafting Committee is doing on
>> >>> revising the text.  It wasn’t meant to imply that there will be no
>> more
>> >>> discussion on the Guidelines before a ratification process takes
>> place. The
>> >>> revisions to the draft Guidelines will be published on Meta for
>> comment and
>> >>> discussion as soon as the committee feels they have incorporated the
>> input
>> >>> received over the last few months. This message was just meant as a
>> >>> reminder to anyone who might not have been aware of the draft review.
>> >>>
>> >>> In terms of what we’re reviewing with the Board, it is a process for
>> >>> ratification in response to a request from the global arbitration
>> >>> committees. They are not being asked to ratify the Enforcement
>> Guidelines
>> >>> at this time. As to how and when ratification of the guidelines will
>> take
>> >>> place, thoughts and opinions from the Drafting Committee, community
>> members
>> >>> and functionaries, and the Board of Trustees will inform the details.
>> >>> We’ll communicate a full ratification plan after the Board meets in
>> >>> mid-December and considers the input received so far on what would
>> make a
>> >>> fair and practical process.
>> >>>
>> >>> Patrick
>> >>>
>> >>> [1]
>> >>>
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg35984.html
>> >>>
>> >>> [2]
>> >>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ#Periodic_reviews
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 11:37 PM Peter Southwood <
>> >>> peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Fair comment.
>> >>>> P
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: nosebagbear@gmail.com [mailto:nosebagbear@gmail.com]
>> >>>> Sent: 27 November 2021 13:04
>> >>>> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >>>> Subject: [Marketing Mail] [Wikimedia-l] Re: Closing the comment
>> period
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> the Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Draft Guidelines and next
>> step
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hello,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I would make a couple of notes here:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> One is that when you say "comment period will end", that can't be of
>> the
>> >>>> process.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> There are numerous open questions that we have yet to see any draft
>> >>>> policy
>> >>>> text on - they can't go into the final document without chance for
>> open
>> >>>> review and further revision.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> While I've heard bits about how they will be discussed, we've seen
>> >>>> nothing
>> >>>> formal and nothing in writing.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Please let me know BEFORE the 29th how that will be handled to the
>> >>>> community's expectations. As the inherently most controversial bits
>> >>>> (that's
>> >>>> why they were open questions!) the actual next needs MORE time to
>> review
>> >>>> than the aspects already there, not less.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Yours,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Nosebagbear
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>> >>>> guidelines at:
>> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> >>>> Public archives at
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/
>> >>>> message/GD5CSLNTF7XBCQVCEZT7CGD7XHQ2PRIQ/
>> >>>> <
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GD5CSLNTF7XBCQVCEZT7CGD7XHQ2PRIQ/
>> >
>> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>> >>>> https://www.avg.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Patrick Earley
>> >>> Lead Trust & Safety Policy Manager
>> >>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> >>> pearley@wikimedia.org
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>> guidelines
>> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Patrick Earley
>> > Lead Trust & Safety Policy Manager
>> > Wikimedia Foundation
>> > pearley@wikimedia.org
>> >
>> >
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